No. Judged by influence in life, Isaac Newton is a greater messanger of God than Jesus. So Principia should be accorded a higher sanctity than the Bible or Quran.
Correct?
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There is no argument to be used against a Messenger
Correct?
You are correct. Quran is built on clear insights, and only in holding to that clear of it, can you get deeper into more deeper insights that are clear too. It warns if you hold on to ambiguity from it, nothing of the Quran will be clear eventually, but it will only increase such people in loss and misguidance.
3:7 doesn't say there is two type of verses, rather it says two things come from Quran, clear signs which is from the original book, and form the original book from God in the high heart of Mohammad (s), and then the other thing that comes from it is ambiguity. The ambiguity despite the clear recitation, is due to hard hearts that put words of God outside their proper place and context. This is due to love of the dunya and being overwhelmed by sorcery of Ibis and his forces.
Believers on the other hand break the locks and pierce through the knots tied upon by those who blow upon knots, and see the book through knowledge and insight that is the truth.
The other thing is God never once says "Follow Ali" although implicitly, this is what almost all verses are saying. Quran is from God for that reason to. If it was a human or Mohammad (s), they would not have the subtle way of speaking. They would clearly say "follow Ali", but Imam Ali (a) explains why God didn't say this, and it's part of the elaborate plan to safeguard the Quran. The closest thing to "family of Mohammad", is "family of Yaseen", and people sought to distort that to "El Yaseen" although grammar wise it means one possibly one thing only. The reason why God said "Auli Yaseen" instead speaks volumes and the effort to distort the true meaning of the aya speaks volumes of why Quran is not explicit in everything.
If we compare Quran, there exists so many subtle calculated words. But the Bahai scriptures are all over the place, some Bahai members said they been studying scriptures of Bahai fatih their whole lives, but have not studied it all. This while Quran is easy to remember, enjoying to recite time and time again, and it's wonders keep opening up other wonders. Bahai scriptures per my view don't have this wonderous nature that is mystic, sublime, and speaks of higher wisdom and author beyond our understanding.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Apart from what is written in the books, does anyone have any other evidence? If there is, then kindly mention it.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Aww. Very nice.
Prophets=Charlatans
So to make that equation, what is the analysis you had done. Whats the evidence you can provide.
Not some vague "read your own scripture" type of claim. You see, I can come up and say to you that your whole country are full of charlatans just to boil you up, and if you ask for evidence I can tell you "just look up your own news" or some nonsense like that. Just like you do because you are just up and about to spread some hatred around to boost your daily dose up.
But why don't you try to be more objective and do some real research and provide some real information rather than doing that?
So please go and do the hardwork and then provide a valid case to prove that Prophets=Charlatans.
Mind you, it has to be "all prophets" because your claim is general. Just like the example I gave above. All your countrymen, not just you or one or two. All.
rational experiences
Veteran Member
If one human owning natural life challenges one other human natural life owner. First position ever..... where is science.
It doesn't exist.
As natural all and everything natural already exists. Pretty basic not too difficult a thought.
An egotist says by my thoughts human.....looking at everything. I believe I'm the most intelligent. I say so myself.
As a survivor human I live honour and understand mutual support in nature on earth. Status does not make my presence dominion owner.
The difference notated first. About human thoughts. First thoughts.
Is the actual study. The study of human theism and what humans in science technology then caused.
As the themes are about the human.
Human highest first position in natural life. Natural only. No theism.
Change to human natural life and conscious thoughts happened.
Cause and effects of a human making a review after all causes and effects witnessed as a summation. Studies themes.
It doesn't exist.
As natural all and everything natural already exists. Pretty basic not too difficult a thought.
An egotist says by my thoughts human.....looking at everything. I believe I'm the most intelligent. I say so myself.
As a survivor human I live honour and understand mutual support in nature on earth. Status does not make my presence dominion owner.
The difference notated first. About human thoughts. First thoughts.
Is the actual study. The study of human theism and what humans in science technology then caused.
As the themes are about the human.
Human highest first position in natural life. Natural only. No theism.
Change to human natural life and conscious thoughts happened.
Cause and effects of a human making a review after all causes and effects witnessed as a summation. Studies themes.
During Prophet Mohammad (s) time there was fake Prophet Musalyma. He had followers too, but, people (over all) did not take him as serious as Mohammad (s).
That said. We have to also recall some things.
Arabia worshiped Satan explicitly outwardly manifestly. To them, Satan and his forces were the True Angels, while Gabriel and Michael deceivers.
They accused Mohammad (s) of being either (1) a Sorcerer or (2) Possessed (and the miracles hence performed by evil Jinn (accusation of Gabriel and Michael and Angels under them))
When there is miracles in the open, the trial is different. A lot of Quran is about proving why miracles are a proof. For example, 19 Angels guardians over hell, is to emphasize, if miracles are not a proof, then hell-fire and heaven are not a guarantee of justice, but rather, you can be at the mercy of misguided forces that put people in hell forever and heaven forever, and so miracles have to be accepted because they display a power from God that is part of how he establishes the order of the heavens and earth.
A lot of Quran is just about proving miracles are signs of God and his religion.
The Quran is sufficient sign, but it can be distorted, misunderstood, and overwhelmed with sorcery and falsehood.
Therefore much of Quranic arguments condemnation of disbelief is on hold now.
We are more a kin to the period where truth is not manifest, but rather, Satan has upper word in beautifying falsehood and lowering the pure blessed word of light from God.
There is four complaints:
(1) No more Nabi after Mohammad (s) (God stopped talking to us and clarifying in real time what to do)
(2) Hiddenness of the Imam (Imam Mahdi (a) is not in public)
(3) The trials and tribulations of our times
(4) And the numerous number of enemies against us
Shias usually are aware of 3/4, but 1 is also a huge trial. God not speaking to humanity in real time, is a huge trial. In the past, Prophets were succeeded by Prophets and has God communicate books as proofs from him, constantly, and spoke to humans in real time.
This ceased with Mohammad (s).
But the reason it ceased, is part of an elaborate plan, that includes the Quran of Ali (a) which will show the wisdom of why Quran was revealed slowly all over the place and how the Sunnah complimented it as it was dynamically built, and the way Sunnah illuminates the Quran will be a sign for the Mahdi (A) aside from miracles he will perform.
If Imams (a) were Anbiya, there would dispute as to what constitutes books from God, and then this would lead to division and the prestige of Quran would not reach it's status as it's studied today.
This was fine in the past, but not as final plan, to bring Islam to a world stage, and finalize the trial. The Quran thus was designed in a way to apply to all times, while this was never the case with any revelations in the past. They were more explicit and relevant to limited time and not written for all times.
Thus the wisdom of ending Nubuwa you have to understand the Imams and the Mahdi role with the Quran and the Sunnah.
That said. We have to also recall some things.
Arabia worshiped Satan explicitly outwardly manifestly. To them, Satan and his forces were the True Angels, while Gabriel and Michael deceivers.
They accused Mohammad (s) of being either (1) a Sorcerer or (2) Possessed (and the miracles hence performed by evil Jinn (accusation of Gabriel and Michael and Angels under them))
When there is miracles in the open, the trial is different. A lot of Quran is about proving why miracles are a proof. For example, 19 Angels guardians over hell, is to emphasize, if miracles are not a proof, then hell-fire and heaven are not a guarantee of justice, but rather, you can be at the mercy of misguided forces that put people in hell forever and heaven forever, and so miracles have to be accepted because they display a power from God that is part of how he establishes the order of the heavens and earth.
A lot of Quran is just about proving miracles are signs of God and his religion.
The Quran is sufficient sign, but it can be distorted, misunderstood, and overwhelmed with sorcery and falsehood.
Therefore much of Quranic arguments condemnation of disbelief is on hold now.
We are more a kin to the period where truth is not manifest, but rather, Satan has upper word in beautifying falsehood and lowering the pure blessed word of light from God.
There is four complaints:
(1) No more Nabi after Mohammad (s) (God stopped talking to us and clarifying in real time what to do)
(2) Hiddenness of the Imam (Imam Mahdi (a) is not in public)
(3) The trials and tribulations of our times
(4) And the numerous number of enemies against us
Shias usually are aware of 3/4, but 1 is also a huge trial. God not speaking to humanity in real time, is a huge trial. In the past, Prophets were succeeded by Prophets and has God communicate books as proofs from him, constantly, and spoke to humans in real time.
This ceased with Mohammad (s).
But the reason it ceased, is part of an elaborate plan, that includes the Quran of Ali (a) which will show the wisdom of why Quran was revealed slowly all over the place and how the Sunnah complimented it as it was dynamically built, and the way Sunnah illuminates the Quran will be a sign for the Mahdi (A) aside from miracles he will perform.
If Imams (a) were Anbiya, there would dispute as to what constitutes books from God, and then this would lead to division and the prestige of Quran would not reach it's status as it's studied today.
This was fine in the past, but not as final plan, to bring Islam to a world stage, and finalize the trial. The Quran thus was designed in a way to apply to all times, while this was never the case with any revelations in the past. They were more explicit and relevant to limited time and not written for all times.
Thus the wisdom of ending Nubuwa you have to understand the Imams and the Mahdi role with the Quran and the Sunnah.
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Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
1. You are misquoting me. I said there is no way to differentiate between the so-called 'True prophets' and Charlatans. That does not mean that I called anyone's 'true prophet' as charlatan.
2. You can say that. It is a free world. What authority do I have to stop you from saying anything you like. Only keep in mind forum rules. I do not even have the habit to make a complaint.
3. There should be some object for me to be objective. Since there is absolutely none, what can I analyze?
4. We do not have any prophets. As you know, I do not even believe in existence of God or soul. Although most Hindus believe in Gods, Goddesses and avataras. It is their choice, not mine. For me, it is ignorance.
PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
For Christianity there are can be many prophets (messengers) but only one Christ (Messiah, Saviour, pre-existing agent of creation... )
"For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." (1 Timothy 2:5)
firedragon
Veteran Member
So prove it. Prove your general statement. Not just gossip.
This is taken out of context:
Jesus (a) says he is light of the world so long as he in this world.
Jesus (a) compared John (a) not being recognized with him not being recognized and that they both were mediators of their time.
Elijah (a) came back and came back even with John (a) but was not recognized.
The holy spirit is the mediator between man and God per Gospels and books before, but if Jesus (a) is the only one, it means he was the holy spirit of that time, yet he says the spirit of truth will be sent to his disciples (Elijah (a)) when he leaves (ie goes up to heaven, tells Elijah (a) to take over) and talks about Mohammad (s) also as that very spirit of truth Jesus (a) is, and all the words about himself will apply to the future coming of the person who too is the spirit of truth, and he is to come in the future which clarifies Gospels is not just about Jesus but all anointed kings of God.
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
If you accepted everyone who says they have a message from God, you would have to believe a lot of contradictions.
Yes you have to test the spirits, by the Holy Spirit. Let's not forget that Satan also has messagers and they lie for him.
QuestioningMind
Well-Known Member
I'm not impressed by a god being that is oblivious of its own potential.
QuestioningMind
Well-Known Member
So this god being COULD have created us so that it could communicate with us, but it chose not to in favor of some silly 'messenger' system. This sounds like a very silly god being indeed.
firedragon
Veteran Member
You don't know that?? Do you have any research to prove that Newton was had more influence than Jesus? Speaking about Newton, arent you shaming his sanctity by being unscientific in making claims unproven? Or are you appealing to a book? The only book I can think of that has something to help you in this endeavour will show you Muhammed was more influential than Newton.
So how do you substantiate your claim up there?
PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
Christians believe that the Holy Spirit also spoke through the prophets (before Jesus) but they themselves were human (channels) not the Holy Spirit itself.
Then In what way is Jesus Christ the one and only mediator?
"... yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist." (1 Corinthians 8:6)
"Salvation exists in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12)
PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
P. S.: What does "(a)" mean?
(alayhis salam) (peace be upon him)
This is really not what the OP is about, it is really about a Christain, or a Muslim, or a Jew, or a follower of Krishna or Zoroaster who reject each other's Faiths. It is about if they reject the Bab and Baha'u'llah, that any argument they use is an argument against the source of their own scriptures.
But since everyone has taken it in another way, obviously they are seeing it from different frames of reference.
The claim, to me is black an white as such a claim is either true, or it is false.
God either did give that Message to the person to share with humamity, or God did not.
There is many a tangent that could come into play, one could make a claim as a delusional person, or as a intended fraud.
So what evidence would you expect a Messenger of God to provide, other than what they already have?
Regards Tony
So we can agree that a sign of a Messenger if God is that their Word is the Truth?
I can offer Baha'u'llah has confirmed that is a requirement. In fact Baha'u'llah specifically asked us to determine just that about him, that he was a speaker of truth.
As a Baha'i it is our founding virtue.
"Truthfulness is the foundation of all human virtues. Without truthfulness progress and success, in all the worlds of God, are impossible for any soul. When this holy attribute is established in man, all the divine qualities will also be acquired."
Bahá’u’lláh, Advent of Divine Justice, p. 22
Regards Tony
She asked you reasonable questions but you just repeat platitudes.