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There is no evidence for God, so why do you believe?

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So what you are basically saying is you refuse to admit you are following a belief, not an established fact.

No. I have many beliefs. I've told you some of them, but I suspect you've transformed them. For example, I've told you that I believe that life must have come from a supernatural source or arisen naturalistically, because I can think of no other possibilities. I've also told you that I have no way to rule either of these in or out, so I have not done so. I also told you that I consider any naturalistic explanation more likely than any supernaturalistic one, so that although I cannot eliminate either of these, I can order them in terms of likelihood both because only one has supporting evidence, and one is much more parsimonious than the other, meaning that I believe that naturalisitic abiogenesis is probably the correct choice (I add naturalistic to abiogenesis to distinguish it from the supernaturalistic abiogenesis of the creationist).

And, as ever, you have made no attempt to explain why you consider that analysis flawed, just that you do (dismissal without rebuttal), which is meaningless in dialectic, and the end of debate.

I'm guessing that you have converted all of that to me believing in abiogenesis by faith, and that being my religion.

There's nothing to rebut because you haven't provided any evidence that abiogenesis happened

Yes I have, but since you refuse to look at that evidence, of course, you see nothing to rebut.

But you rebut nothing, not just that. I've explained to you why no other form of dissent but rebuttal has any meaning or value in dialectic. If one doesn't give a counterargument, then the discussion ended with the last unrebutted comment. No other form of dissent has any persuasive power, such as calling something impossible without explaining why, or calling sound conclusions faith, as you have seen. Such comments are treated as unsupported claims, which are treated as opinion as persuasive as saying that one likes chocolate better than vanilla.

More beliefs not supported by evidence, therefore they are not science.

But they are science. They are hypotheses proposed to account for the existence of the universe. Maybe to you, science is confirmed conclusions. That would be incorrect.

*********

Why do you ignore so much of what is written to you? I made what I thought was a compelling argument for creationist apologetics being counterproductive when offered to scientifically literate critical thinkers. I even mentioned that no creationist has ever responded to that argument, which I would expect to be important to them, enough to make one want to explain why one disagrees if he does. But that's never going to happen, is it?

I wonder why. What is one to make of your indifference to this? I have to conclude that since you have no interest in investigating even the possibility that I am correct, you either didn't understand what was written and so naturally can't disagree, or that you don't care either way if you are damaging creationism or your ethos, which seems odd. Either of those possibilities would motivate me to rebut the argument if I could, or reconsider my position if I couldn't.

But not the creationists. They just ignore and proceed as before without comment, not even the usual hand waving, which at least indicates that the comment was seen and rejected even if not rebutted. I know that they and I don't think alike, but some of these differences are inscrutable to me. I can understand having different beliefs or values, but not being so different that one has no interest in how he is perceived when arguing, or what effect his claims are having on his audience. I suppose I never will if I can't get a single creationist willing to discuss the matter.

Was Paul’s message different than Jesus Christ message, did Paul change the message or fulfill God’s plan to bring the Gentiles into the family of faith through the Gospel and make Jew and Gentile One Body in Christ?

Yes, Paul's message varied from Jesus's. This has already been covered. I don't see any value in discussing how again. You also don't rebut, so why present the same arguments to be waved away again?
 
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Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
No one has demonstrated that to be the case.
No, no one has demonstrated to you. But that would be pointless since you refuse to learn what is and what is not evidence. If you learn what is and what is not evidence I would have no problem in answering your questions, otherwise I would just be spinning my wheels in providing evidence to you. You would simply deny it, and that does not work with scientific evidence.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Please do not make false statements. It is not from "my perspective" it is from the perspective of those that understand the rules of evidence.

As to your story, if it is true, your friend became an atheist for a very foolish reason. He may not even have been an atheist. He was obviously angry at something and that is never a good reason to decide something one way or another. He may have been "mad at God" which would mean that he was never an atheist at all. One cannot be mad at something that does not exist, and your description is of a Christian that is mad at God.

Very few atheists are made at God and it is an insult to accuse them of that.

I am betting the he never "realized the reality of God's existence" he just got over his "mad".
You may claim your views are solely based on rules of evidence, but everyone is influenced by their personal experiences and biases. These impact the way any evidence is interpreted. No one is completely objective, including you. I think God uses our experiences, etc. to continue working in our lives and leading us to the only objective truth
(if and when someone desires to know the truth)...Jesus Christ- the way, the truth and the life (John 14:6).

The person in the story I shared never indicated any anger at God, whatsoever. He simply said when he moved to California and went to a new high school and the science teacher passed out new biology books and began the year teaching about evolution, he turned away from the Bible and God he had been taught to accept in his childhood. You have simply made up a whole assumption that he was “mad at God and likely not a real atheist”. Re-read your post. You are the one being insulting and accusing an atheist of being an incognito Christian just mad at God. You can dislike the fact that an atheist changed and came to believe in God, all you like, but that’s all.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You may claim your views are solely based on rules of evidence, but everyone is influenced by their personal experiences and biases. These impact the way any evidence is interpreted. No one is completely objective, including you. I think God uses our experiences, etc. to continue working in our lives and leading us to the only objective truth
(if and when someone desires to know the truth)...Jesus Christ- the way, the truth and the life (John 14:6).

The person in the story I shared never indicated any anger at God, whatsoever. He simply said when he moved to California and went to a new high school and the science teacher passed out new biology books and began the year teaching about evolution, he turned away from the Bible and God he had been taught to accept in his childhood. You have simply made up a whole assumption that he was “mad at God and likely not a real atheist”. Re-read your post. You are the one being insulting and accusing an atheist of being an incognito Christian just mad at God. You can dislike the fact that an atheist changed and came to believe in God, all you like, but that’s all.
There is not doubt that personal beliefs play a role, but there are clear rules for what and what is not evidence. If one cherry picks observations then they can no longer be called evidence and that is what you did.

As to the person that you mentioned his reactions tell us that he was angry. Why wouldn't he even read letters from his mother. And why would the fact of evolution change his religious beliefs? That makes no sense at all. Most Christians do accept that we are the product of evolution. That may not be the case in the US, but it is worldwide. Evolution does not refute Christianity, it only refutes one of the myths of Genesis.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Then one needs to accept the correction that what one has is a belief. Knowledge is demonstrable. Beliefs may or may not be demonstrable. If one cannot show why one is right then one only has mere belief even if one thinks that one "knows" something.

If you mean right as per evidence, then we agree. But that word "right" has several different definitions, so a belief might not be right as per evidence, but still right for me.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
If you mean right as per evidence, then we agree. But that word "right" has several different definitions, so a belief might not be right as per evidence, but still right for me.
Let's leave relativism out of it since by that standard one could claim that the Earth is flat. By "right" I mean that one's beliefs are well supported by evidence. I will agree that it does not make them factual in an absolute sense, but they are far more likely to be correct. There are after all different degrees of being wrong. A case in point, I would be wrong if I tried to claim that Christopher Columbus was Spanish because the Spanish funded his trip to the New World. I would be very wrong if I insisted that Christopher Columbus was a ham sandwich.. Creationists are almost a "ham sandwich" degree of being wrong.
 
Yes, Paul's message varied from Jesus's. This has already been covered. I don't see any value in discussing how again. You also don't rebut, so why present the same arguments to be waved away again?[/QUOTE]
Well if you don’t want to discuss how then, prove your statements. I have rebutted your statement, Jesus commissioned Paul, the Holy Spirit set him apart to minister the Gospel to the Gentiles, Peter was also sent to Cornelius, God showed Peter that Gentiles were considered clean and welcomed into the family of God through the Gospel. Revelation- all nations are in Heaven represented before the Throne. Old Testament talked of the Gentiles coming to God as well.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Well if you don’t want to discuss how then, prove your statements. I have rebutted your statement, Jesus commissioned Paul, the Holy Spirit set him apart to minister the Gospel to the Gentiles, Peter was also sent to Cornelius, God showed Peter that Gentiles were considered clean and welcomed into the family of God through the Gospel. Revelation- all nations are in Heaven represented before the Throne. Old Testament talked of the Gentiles coming to God as well.
Sorry, but that is a claim based upon a belief in the Bible. A refutation takes more effort than that.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
There is not doubt that personal beliefs play a role, but there are clear rules for what and what is not evidence. If one cherry picks observations then they can no longer be called evidence and that is what you did.

As to the person that you mentioned his reactions tell us that he was angry. Why wouldn't he even read letters from his mother. And why would the fact of evolution change his religious beliefs? That makes no sense at all. Most Christians do accept that we are the product of evolution. That may not be the case in the US, but it is worldwide. Evolution does not refute Christianity, it only refutes one of the myths of Genesis.
I think it is atheists who actually do the cherry-picking, as the evidence overwhelmingly points to the existence and necessity of an Intelligence/Creator God.

Why wouldn’t the person I shared about throw away letters, if he knew his mother was always writing about God or sharing Bible scriptures? He just didn’t want to read that stuff. I suppose I should have more accurately said, he didn’t throw away all the letters before opening some of them. He would open the birthday or Christmas cards his mom sent because he knew there was money in those.

That he accepted that life is the product of abiogenesis/evolution, rather than by divine creation by a Creator certainly is enough to reject Christianity. They are diametrically opposed. When one rejects Genesis; the entire Bible and Jesus Christ may as well be rejected. The Genesis account reveals the creation of humanity by God, the fall of humanity into sin, the broken relationship between God and sinful people, and the need and promise of a Savior.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
By the way, I am not sure if Paul changed the teachings of Jesus. One needs to remember that even though later in the Bible his writings are the first record that we have of Christianity. What the Gospels show is that there was some diversity in thought among the earliest of Christians. Some tell the story that Jesus was for the Jews and some seemed to believe that Jesus was there for everyone.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
I think it is atheists who actually do the cherry-picking, as the evidence overwhelmingly points to the existence and necessity of an Intelligence/Creator God.

Why wouldn’t the person I shared about throw away letters, if he knew his mother was always writing about God or sharing Bible scriptures? He just didn’t want to read that stuff. I suppose I should have more accurately said, he didn’t throw away all the letters before opening some of them. He would open the birthday or Christmas cards his mom sent because he knew there was money in those.

That he accepted that life is the product of abiogenesis/evolution, rather than by divine creation by a Creator certainly is enough to reject Christianity. They are diametrically opposed. When one rejects Genesis; the entire Bible and Jesus Christ may as well be rejected. The Genesis account reveals the creation of humanity by God, the fall of humanity into sin, the broken relationship between God and sinful people, and the need and promise of a Savior.

Well, on behalf of some of my real life Christian friends, that is not their Christianity.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
You must have had some need that only the right flavor of Christianity satisfied. Did you ask yourself why a deity that is said to love you and who wants you to know it if you'll just try didn't appear in the first two tries? Why didn't Jesus save you in those other churches?



Anytime except if you're in a Catholic or Mormon church, right? And a Protestant one in my case.

I'm glad that you finally found what you are looking for, but so have I.



Yes. I tested its claim, the same one you just made - that its god would come to me if I sought it. I did, but the deity didn't. So, I moved on, and like you, are well satisfied with where I landed - secular humanism.
Why would you call God “it”? If you were truly seeking God for answers or more revelation, back when you say you were a Protestant, why wouldn’t you at least start by addressing this Being as He has revealed Himself in the scriptures?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I think it is atheists who actually do the cherry-picking, as the evidence overwhelmingly points to the existence and necessity of an Intelligence/Creator God.

Really? And what evidence would this be? I truly have not seen any.

Why wouldn’t the person I shared about throw away letters, if he knew his mother was always writing about God or sharing Bible scriptures? He just didn’t want to read that stuff. I suppose I should have more accurately said, he didn’t throw away all the letters before opening some of them. He would open the birthday or Christmas cards his mom sent because he knew there was money in those.

That he accepted that life is the product of abiogenesis/evolution, rather than by divine creation by a Creator certainly is enough to reject Christianity. They are diametrically opposed. When one rejects Genesis; the entire Bible and Jesus Christ may as well be rejected. The Genesis account reveals the creation of humanity by God, the fall of humanity into sin, the broken relationship between God and sinful people, and the need and promise of a Savior.

I would not have thrown away such letters. I don't think that very many atheists would. They would still have been letters from my mother. My mother was a Christian. When I took care of her for her last year of her life I had no problem going to church with her. I did it for her. My beliefs were not threatened. I could accept the fact that the people in that church believed differently from me. Since I was there for her I kept my beliefs to myself. I think that they knew, I would not take communion for example, but that was because I respected their beliefs, but they did not make a big deal of it either. Your young man had all of the hallmarks of a Christian that was mad at God. In other words, he probably still believed.

And once again, the Genesis story can also be taken as allegory. People that study evolution know that man is a product of evolution, not of special creation. I can link you to a Christian based evolution site. You may force yourself to believe the creation myth , but it is clear that most Christians do not sure that belief.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
By the way, I am not sure if Paul changed the teachings of Jesus. One needs to remember that even though later in the Bible his writings are the first record that we have of Christianity. What the Gospels show is that there was some diversity in thought among the earliest of Christians. Some tell the story that Jesus was for the Jews and some seemed to believe that Jesus was there for everyone.
The scriptures reveal that Jesus came to the nation of Israel and the gospel was revealed to them first. All His first followers were Jews. But when the Jews rejected Jesus ( on a national level ) the gospel went to the Gentiles ( non-Jews). Paul did not change any teachings of Jesus and all the Apostles and Paul were in agreement concerning the Gospel.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I didn’t say natural processes are responsible for the stuff we see, but without God everything would cease to exist because He holds everything together.

Why would anyone believe that?

What makes you think that thngs need to be 'held together' by anything other than natural forces?

God created vegetation with seed to be able to continue to grow vegetation and multiply. Same with the animals, human beings etc. He gave the ability to multiply their offspring.

And yet they do that without any further intervention from God, via natural processes. Why do you think those natural processes were not sufficient from the beginning?
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Not all the Bible is eye witness testimony but a lot of the Bible is eye witness testimony.

But can you show that *any* of the writings about Jesus were? We *know* that people other than the apostles wrote things and *attributed* to the apostles. Since the only gospel to even *claim* to be an eyewitness account is Luke, but there is no reason to think that it was actually written by Luke, what actual evidence do you have the the Biblical accounts are valid?
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Lol...if you don't know what nothing is, I suggest going back to grade school.

Well, is a vacuum 'nothing'? Even if it has space? and duration?

Do you have any evidence that 'nothing' ever existed? For that matter, what would it even mean to say 'nothing' existed?

There are more subtleties in this topic than you may have considered. And they go far beyond grade school.

There is an amusing history book by Edward Grant entitled 'Much Ado About Nothing' that discusses medieval notions of the vacuum.
 
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