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There is no evidence for God, so why do you believe?

You seem confused.
We are talking about the creation of matter from nothing, not about changing a lifestyle.
Well it was from the idea that me a drug addict all of the sudden had the power within myself to deliver myself from my addiction, completely change my character, succeed in life for these past 35 years, provide for 14 kids by a trick of psychology! That my friend surely would be a miraculous thing.
That’s not what happened though, God delivered me and has done this through Jesus Christ.
But seen as you believe I could have this miraculous power I don’t see how you could then turn around and think the Eternal God and Creator couldn’t speak this world into existence. His Word is powerful and accomplishes what He says.
Not only that even our words have power and meaning.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
A better analogy would be... "We have all the ingredients for an elaborate dish, and we have a finished product, we just don't have the full recipe to make one from the other".

But your analogy is actually still pretty good. If you can boil water, you have the potential to be a great chef. If you can do basic maths, you have the potential to be a great mathematician.
Not if there's just not enough information available to me to allow that to happen.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Well it was from the idea that me a drug addict all of the sudden had the power within myself to deliver myself from my addiction, completely change my character, succeed in life for these past 35 years, provide for 14 kids by a trick of psychology! That my friend surely would be a miraculous thing.
That’s not what happened though, God delivered me and has done this through Jesus Christ.
So how do you explain atheists of followers of false gods who do the same?

But seen as you believe I could have this miraculous power
But it isn't "miraculous". People overcome adversity all the time. No need for gods.

I don’t see how you could then turn around and think the Eternal God and Creator couldn’t speak this world into existence. His Word is powerful and accomplishes what He says.
Not only that even our words have power and meaning.
I understand that creationists like yourself believe that the universe came from nothing, but I prefer a more rational explanation.

BTW, If god can deliver you from drug addiction, why did he lead you into it in the first place?

However, it is not surprising that personal trauma led you to religion. It is often the case.
It is pretty much impossible to find a happy, well-adjusted, comfortable, educated atheist without any past trauma or skeletons who finds god.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Yes and he does. That doesn't equal making his presence known to every creature unless he chooses to.
You said "The Spirit doesn't manifest himself in places he's not welcome". So he isn't everywhere.

And surely, the places where he isn't welcome are exactly the places he needs to be. Or does your god only like to preach to the choir? and avoid a challenge?
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Not if there's just not enough information available to me to allow that to happen.
So by your argument, powered flight, antibiotics, computers, etc, etc are not possible because at some point there was not enough information to allow them to happen.
If we don't know how to do something "now" (now being any time during human history) we will never know how to do it.
I'm sure you can see the basic flaw in your argument.
 
So how do you explain atheists of followers of false gods who do the same?
I haven’t met one yet, none have claimed eternal life, a changed heart or being empowered by the Holy Spirit.
I understand that creationists like yourself believe that the universe came from nothing, but I prefer a more rational explanation.
God has life in Himself and the power to Create and sustain the life He created. In the end this will be demonstrated by showing He has the ability to fulfill the promise of Eternal Life to believers and the unbelievers who don’t want anything to do with Him, who slandered and blasphemed Him will get what they wanted as well.
BTW, If god can deliver you from drug addiction, why did he lead you into it in the first place?
God didn’t lead me there and as a matter of fact my friend tried to stop me at the beginning and I told him to leave me alone, that was my decision.
God never left me and was right there when I hit bottom.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Sound isn't "air movement". It is pressure waves travelling through a medium (like air). The sound is still there even without an ear.
So you do believe that sound does not exist without someone to hear it.

Yes, sound requires an ear. Pressure waves travelling through a medium like air is first sound with an ear.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I haven’t met one yet, none have claimed eternal life, a changed heart or being empowered by the Holy Spirit.

Why would they? i tis irrelevant to the criterion of radical life change.

God has life in Himself and the power to Create and sustain the life He created. In the end this will be demonstrated by showing He has the ability to fulfill the promise of Eternal Life to believers and the unbelievers who don’t want anything to do with Him, who slandered and blasphemed Him will get what they wanted as well.

God didn’t lead me there and as a matter of fact my friend tried to stop me at the beginning and I told him to leave me alone, that was my decision.
God never left me and was right there when I hit bottom.

And what people are pointing out is that your primary evidence for believing in God has other explanations that don't involve any deities. You attributed it to a deity. Others do not. But the change happens anyway.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
So is ultrasound sound? No human ear can hear it, but it is pressure waves through air (or other things).

Well, it requires an instrument and thus is like an ear in the end.
A difference requires something who can pick up the difference. I know you have another useful to you definition for information. But I don't care, because we are both playing philosophy in the end. I am of a different school of thought on this than you, but you are not in a school of thought, right? ;)

You can only say there is a difference, if you know there is difference, otherwise it is unknown. It may be there, but you don't know that in the end, unless you know.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
I haven’t met one yet, none have claimed eternal life, a changed heart or being empowered by the Holy Spirit.
That wasn't your initial claim.
You said that it was god and Jesus that changed the course of your life in the face of adversity. Many atheists and people who follow what you would consider false gods similarly change the course of their life in the face of adversity.
How do you explain that?

God has life in Himself and the power to Create and sustain the life He created.
That is mere assertion. You have no evidence that a god even exists in the first place, let alone evidence of what that god could do if it existed. You are simply explaining what you believe.

In the end this will be demonstrated by showing He has the ability to fulfill the promise of Eternal Life to believers and the unbelievers who don’t want anything to do with Him, who slandered and blasphemed Him will get what they wanted as well.
Ah, the "just you wait and see" argument.
Well done!

God didn’t lead me there and as a matter of fact my friend tried to stop me at the beginning and I told him to leave me alone, that was my decision.
God never left me and was right there when I hit bottom.
So if god was with you all the time through your descent into personal trauma, why didn't he save you then, before it happened? Why did he wait?

Just to be clear, are you one of those religionists who thanks god for the good in their lives, but refuses to blame god for the bad?
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Well, it requires an instrument and thus is like an ear in the end.
A difference requires something who can pick up the difference. I know you have another useful to you definition for information. But I don't care, because we are both playing philosophy in the end. I am of a different school of thought on this than you, but you are not in a school of thought, right? ;)

You can only say there is a difference, if you know there is difference, otherwise it is unknown. It may be there, but you don't know that in the end, unless you know.
Vinaigrette or Thousand Island?
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
So id you put a loudspeaker on full volume inside a room, there is no sound in that room if there is no one in there?

Correct, there is no sound with an organism/instrument.

We are doing words that requires humans versus words that doesn't require that. E.g. sound versus gravity or the fear of heights.
Heights don't require in the same sense as fear, that one is easier.
 
That wasn't your initial claim.
You said that it was god and Jesus that changed the course of your life in the face of adversity. Many atheists and people who follow what you would consider false gods similarly change the course of their life in the face of adversity.
How do you explain that?
That has been my claim all along, all of that and still haven’t heard from anyone yet of the things you are saying about other people and their changed lives and direction. I would have to test those, but you’re just talking and hypothetical people right now.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
That has been my claim all along, all of that and still haven’t heard from anyone yet of the things you are saying about other people and their changed lives and direction. I would have to test those, but you’re just talking and hypothetical people right now.

I am one. But before we start, what is your professional qualification in doing such tests?
 
Why would they? i tis irrelevant to the criterion of radical life change.



And what people are pointing out is that your primary evidence for believing in God has other explanations that don't involve any deities. You attributed it to a deity. Others do not. But the change happens anyway.
This story reminds me of a lot of people in this thread:
“As he was passing by, he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” Jesus answered. “This came about so that God’s works might be displayed in him. We must do the works of him who sent me while it is day. Night is coming when no one can work. As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.” After he said these things he spit on the ground, made some mud from the saliva, and spread the mud on his eyes. “Go,” he told him, “wash in the pool of Siloam” (which means “Sent”). So he left, washed, and came back seeing. His neighbors and those who had seen him before as a beggar said, “Isn’t this the one who used to sit begging?” Some said, “He’s the one.” Others were saying, “No, but he looks like him.” He kept saying, “I’m the one.” So they asked him, “Then how were your eyes opened?” He answered, “The man called Jesus made mud, spread it on my eyes, and told me, ‘Go to Siloam and wash.’ So when I went and washed I received my sight.” “Where is he?” they asked. “I don’t know,” he said. They brought the man who used to be blind to the Pharisees. The day that Jesus made the mud and opened his eyes was a Sabbath. Then the Pharisees asked him again how he received his sight. “He put mud on my eyes,” he told them. “I washed and I can see.” Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, because he doesn’t keep the Sabbath.” But others were saying, “How can a sinful man perform such signs?” And there was a division among them. Again they asked the blind man, “What do you say about him, since he opened your eyes?” “He’s a prophet,” he said. The Jews did not believe this about him — that he was blind and received sight — until they summoned the parents of the one who had received his sight. They asked them, “Is this your son, the one you say was born blind? How then does he now see?” “We know this is our son and that he was born blind,” his parents answered. “But we don’t know how he now sees, and we don’t know who opened his eyes. Ask him; he’s of age. He will speak for himself.” His parents said these things because they were afraid of the Jews, since the Jews had already agreed that if anyone confessed him as the Messiah, he would be banned from the synagogue. So a second time they summoned the man who had been blind and told him, “Give glory to God. We know that this man is a sinner.” He answered, “Whether or not he’s a sinner, I don’t know. One thing I do know: I was blind, and now I can see!” Then they asked him, “What did he do to you? How did he open your eyes?” “I already told you,” he said, “and you didn’t listen. Why do you want to hear it again? You don’t want to become his disciples too, do you?” They ridiculed him: “You’re that man’s disciple, but we’re Moses’s disciples. We know that God has spoken to Moses. But this man — we don’t know where he’s from.” “This is an amazing thing!” the man told them. “You don’t know where he is from, and yet he opened my eyes. We know that God doesn’t listen to sinners, but if anyone is God-fearing and does his will, he listens to him. Throughout history no one has ever heard of someone opening the eyes of a person born blind. If this man were not from God, he wouldn’t be able to do anything.” “You were born entirely in sin,” they replied, “and are you trying to teach us?” Then they threw him out. Jesus heard that they had thrown the man out, and when he found him, he asked, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?” “Who is he, Sir, that I may believe in him?” he asked. Jesus answered, “You have seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you.” “I believe, Lord!” he said, and he worshiped him. Jesus said, “I came into this world for judgment, in order that those who do not see will see and those who do see will become blind.” Some of the Pharisees who were with him heard these things and asked him, “We aren’t blind too, are we?” “If you were blind,” Jesus told them, “you wouldn’t have sin. But now that you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.”
‭‭John‬ ‭9:1-22, 24-41‬ ‭CSB‬‬
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
So by your argument, powered flight, antibiotics, computers, etc, etc are not possible because at some point there was not enough information to allow them to happen.
If we don't know how to do something "now" (now being any time during human history) we will never know how to do it.
I'm sure you can see the basic flaw in your argument.
You are really reaching.
This is about whether something happened that we can not test... not basic mechanics .
 
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