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There is no evidence for God, so why do you believe?

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Oh I see, well liberal socialism is just taking someone else’s money and spreading it around, isn’t voluntary but forced giving where God says as everyone purposes in their heart let them give, not grudgingly or of necessity because God loves a cheerful giver.
Well, apparently you seem to ignore the simple fact that we are to be "our brother's keeper" per Jesus' mandate on the Sermon On the Mount, the Parable of the Sheep & Goats, and the Parable of the Widow's Mite. Government has a role to help those who need help according to Torah but also according to the Gospel. After all, why would Jesus turn his back on the poor and put money ahead of them and him?
 
Well, apparently you seem to ignore the simple fact that we are to be "our brother's keeper" per Jesus' mandate on the Sermon On the Mount, the Parable of the Sheep & Goats, and the Parable of the Widow's Mite. Government has a role to help those who need help according to Torah but also according to the Gospel. After all, why would Jesus turn his back on the poor and put money ahead of them and him?
How do you figure that I ignore helping other people?
 

samtonga43

Well-Known Member
[QUOTE="It Aint Necessarily So, post: 7697299, member: 61691”]I think you misunderstand. I can’t speak for all Christians, but most believers, including myself, do not look at non-believers as defective, weak, or as failures anymore than we look at ourselves in this way. According to the scriptures, everyone falls short and we have all failed. That is the whole point of needing God to save us. So Christians really are in no position to be demeaning others. I think as finite human beings we are all prone and vulnerable to miss seeing or understanding the infinite Creator.
Well said, inChrist! I do not know any Christians who see non-believers as defective, weak, or as failures. How ridiculous!
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Nonsense. Read Hebrews 11.

That isn't even a response? Read Hebrews? I'm familiar with Hebrews, how does this relate in any way to the places the the writers took the mythology from? Hebrews 11 is a bunch of nonsense about faith? The resurrection thing was first encountered during the 2nd Temple Period 5-300BC while the Persians occupied Israel. The Persians already had all of the myths found in Christianity in their religion:

There exist many similarities between Zoroastrianism and Abrahamic religions as pointed about already by The Jewish Encyclopedia (1906).[94] While some scholars consider that key concepts of Zoroastrian dualism (good and evil; divine twins Ahura Mazda "God" and Angra Mainyu "Satan"), image of the deity, eschatology, resurrection and final judgment, messianism, revelation of Zoroaster on a mountain with Moses on Mount Sinai, three sons of Fereydun with three sons of Noah, heaven and hell, angelology and demonology, cosmology of six days or periods of creation, free will among others influenced Abrahamic religions,..


As to Hellenism, it's known in history that from 300-100BC Hellenism spread through and influenced most religions in the Mediterranean area. Judaism was one (they lived with them for over a century!)
Some of the changes taken by Judaism and other religions were:

-the seasonal drama was homologized to a soteriology (salvation concept) concerning the destiny, fortune, and salvation of the individual after death.

-his led to a change from concern for a religion of national prosperity to one for individual salvation, from focus on a particular ethnic group to concern for every human. The prophet or saviour replaced the priest and king as the chief religious figure.

-his process was carried further through the identification of the experiences of the soul that was to be saved with the vicissitudes of a divine but fallen soul, which had to be redeemed by cultic activity and divine intervention. This view is illustrated in the concept of the paradoxical figure of the saved saviour, salvator salvandus.

-Other deities, who had previously been associated with national destiny (e.g., Zeus, Yahweh, and Isis), were raised to the status of transcendent, supreme

-The temples and cult institutions of the various Hellenistic religions were repositories of the knowledge and techniques necessary for salvation and were the agents of the public worship of a particular deity. In addition, they served an important sociological role. In the new, cosmopolitan ideology that followed Alexander’s conquests, the old nationalistic and ethnic boundaries had broken down and the problem of religious and social identity had become acute.

-Most of these groups had regular meetings for a communal meal that served the dual role of sacramental participation (referring to the use of material elements believed to convey spiritual benefits among the members and with their deity)


-Hellenistic philosophy (Stoicism, Cynicism, Neo-Aristotelianism, Neo-Pythagoreanism, and Neoplatonism) provided key formulations for Jewish, Christian, and Muslim philosophy, theology, and mysticism through the 18th century

- The basic forms of worship of both the Jewish and Christian communities were heavily influenced in their formative period by Hellenistic practices, and this remains fundamentally unchanged to the present time. Finally, the central religious literature of both traditions—the Jewish Talmud (an authoritative compendium of law, lore, and interpretation), the New Testament, and the later patristic literature of the early Church Fathers—are characteristic Hellenistic documents both in form and content.

-Other traditions even more radically reinterpreted the ancient figures. The cosmic or seasonal drama was interiorized to refer to the divine soul within man that must be liberated.

-Each persisted in its native land with little perceptible change save for its becoming linked to nationalistic or messianic movements (centring on a deliverer figure)

-and apocalyptic traditions (referring to a belief in the dramatic intervention of a god in human and natural events)

- Particularly noticeable was the success of a variety of prophets, magicians, and healers—e.g., John the Baptist, Jesus, Simon Magus, Apollonius of Tyana, Alexander the Paphlagonian, and the cult of the healer Asclepius—whose preaching corresponded to the activities of various Greek and
Roman philosophic missionaries
Hellenistic religion - Beliefs, practices, and institutions

Notice how important salvation, a savior figure and redeemed souls is in these concepts, this was a major part of Hellenistic religion.

The Hellenistic World: The World of Alexander the Great

Hellenistic thought is evident in the narratives which make up the books of the Bible as the Hebrew Scriptures were revised and canonized during the Second Temple Period (c.515 BCE-70 CE), the latter part of which was during the Hellenic Period of the region. The gospels and epistles of the Christian New Testament were written in Greek and draw on Greek philosophy and religion as, for example, in the first chapter of the Gospel of John in which the word becomes flesh, a Platonic concept.


Also heaven is another Greek myth adopted by the Hebrews:

]only in Hellenistic times (after c. 330 BCE) did Jews begin to adopt the Greek idea that it would be a place of punishment for misdeeds, and that the righteous would enjoy an afterlife in heaven. -
Sang Meyng Lee, Born 1963; 2005-2008 Adjunct Professor at San Francisco Theological Seminary,





"
Second Temple Judaism[edit]
During the period of the Second Temple (c. 515 BC – 70 AD), the Hebrew people lived under the rule of first the Persian Achaemenid Empire, then the Greek kingdoms of the Diadochi, and finally the Roman Empire.[47] Their culture was profoundly influenced by those of the peoples who ruled them.[47] Consequently, their views on existence after death were profoundly shaped by the ideas of the Persians, Greeks, and Romans.[48][49] The idea of the immortality of the soul is derived from Greek philosophy[49] and the idea of the resurrection of the dead is derived from Persian cosmology.[49] By the early first century AD, these two seemingly incompatible ideas were often conflated by Hebrew thinkers.[49] The Hebrews also inherited from the Persians, Greeks, and Romans the idea that the human soul originates in the divine realm and seeks to return there.[47] The idea that a human soul belongs in Heaven and that Earth is merely a temporary abode in which the soul is tested to prove its worthiness became increasingly popular during the Hellenistic period (323 – 31 BC).[40] Gradually, some Hebrews began to adopt the idea of Heaven as the eternal home of the righteous dead.[40]" (Sanders/Wright)
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
A lot of debate on the issue and a person’s eternal destiny is at stake so everyone has to be convinced in their own mind.
No a persons eternal destiny is not at stake. Pascals wager is an ancient apologetic that's completely debunked. Islam also says a "awful doom" to non-believers as does many religions. Not bothered by that? No, because you know they are myths. Your religion is also a myth. If not then I am still waiting for evidence that isn't easily debunked.

I am not convinced by my mind I am convinced by good evidence. You have likely chosen to believe because people told you it was true. When I decided to investigate it turns out it's just another myth like Islam or Hinduism.




I'm not looking to learn history from an amateur. He is a theologian and a biologist. I have heard some of his debates and he uses standard apologetics. Easily debunked.
He debated Carrier and brought all these wild assertions, the gospels were written earlier than the consensus and so on, he couldn't give evidence for anything and every time Carrier debunked him with actual evidence he said " well I don't agree so lets move on"......

Mclatchie has no evidence yet is so sure of all these non-standard opinions. Clearly bias. I'm interested in what is actually true and what evidence points too. Not what I want to be true. His piece on Daniel is very vague. If you want a more in-depth study listen to Carrier debate Sheffield. Sheffield is at least a decent amateur historian. But the consensus in the field is clear. What desperate fundamentalists have to say doesn't change that. He can write a paper and get it peer-reviewed if it's good enough if he can even challenge the consensus.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Nope. Read Hebrews 11 with attention to see how saving faith works.

A study of the various characters mentioned in this chapter shows that they all had good reasons to trust in God. Their faith was based on what God had done in the past. That makes it evidence-based faith. All faith works like that

Then try again...

Nope. The author used instances of faith from mythology. The Quran also says to have faith or suffer a painful doom "
  1. He who chooseth disbelief instead of faith, verily he hath gone astray from a plain road. Quran 2:108"
Just because Numbers 11 lists a bunch of instances of faith working out from a story doesn't make it true. You are basically saying "it's true because it says so".
No different from the Quran or any other religion. You have simply chosen to believe these ancient stories are true. The OT is borrowed myths and made up stories from a tribe of people. All cultures in those days made myths about Gods, faith, they have the real God and so on. They all claimed to be revelations from a God. Job is a myth taken from a Babylonian version. None of this is literally true.
Members of Islam have faith based on their miracle stories. Hinduism has faith based on miracles done by Krishna. Not real.
 

samtonga43

Well-Known Member
That isn't even a response? Read Hebrews? I'm familiar with Hebrews, how does this relate in any way to the places the the writers took the mythology from? Hebrews 11 is a bunch of nonsense about faith? The resurrection thing was first encountered during the 2nd Temple Period 5-300BC while the Persians occupied Israel. The Persians already had all of the myths found in Christianity in their religion:


In C,S. Lewis’ view, “The heart of Christianity is a myth which is also a fact. The old myth of the Dying God, without ceasing to be myth, comes down from the heaven of legend and imagination to the earth of history. It happens — at a particular date, in a particular place, followed by definable historical consequences".

“We pass from a Balder or an Osiris, dying nobody knows when or where, to a historical Person crucified (it is all in order) under Pontius Pilate. By becoming fact it does not cease to be myth: that is the miracle.”
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
In C,S. Lewis’ view, “The heart of Christianity is a myth which is also a fact. The old myth of the Dying God, without ceasing to be myth, comes down from the heaven of legend and imagination to the earth of history. It happens — at a particular date, in a particular place, followed by definable historical consequences".

“We pass from a Balder or an Osiris, dying nobody knows when or where, to a historical Person crucified (it is all in order) under Pontius Pilate. By becoming fact it does not cease to be myth: that is the miracle.”

Yeah, that works for you. Now do you claim that it then is so for us all?
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
For what you call a forgery sure is accurate of your comments and our current system of affairs. This has been foretold in Matthew 24, which also confirms Daniels Vision and dreams which are explained in the book, even the last kingdom before Jesus returns, unless the whole world is in on the conspiracy. And your comments too:‬‬

First you didn't answer or respond to the discussion? It IS the consensus and it wasn't Carriers work. He was using papers from other historians.b You had something to say but now are oddly silent and are moving the topic completely to posting scripture from Matthew?



“Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”
‭‭II Thessalonians‬ ‭2:3-12‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.”
‭‭II Timothy‬ ‭4:3-5‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Yeah that's in the Quran as well. It's in all religions. You claim there are disbelievers, they follow satan, they have to be saved, blah, blah

Quran, Ya Sin 36. Already hath the judgment, (for their infidelity) proved true of most of them, for they believe not.
Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not, it is alike for them, for they believe not.
Burn therein this day for that ye disbelieved.
To warn whosoever liveth, and that the word may be fulfilled against the disbelievers.

Then when you say you are not Muslim they throw verse at you proving that Islam is true. Words from Allah. It must be right! It's words from GOD!!!!
It's right BECAUSE IT SAYS SO!

See every religion gets to do it. Every religion wrote firey words about non-believers and how they will not believe and they must be influenced by Satan. In ancient times people thought this stuff was true. Every culture had their own version. It still isn't any more real than the Quran.

Matthew is just copying Mark and adding his personal ideas about how to make it better. Christian scholarship has determined this.
From your religion, The Synoptic Problem | Bible.org

"It is quite impossible to hold that the three synoptic gospels were completely independent from each other. In the least, they had to have shared a common oral tradition. But the vast bulk of NT scholars today would argue for much more than that.

When one compares the synoptic parallels, some startling results are noticed. Of Mark’s 11,025 words, only 132 have no parallel in either Matthew or Luke. Percentage-wise, 97% of Mark’s Gospel is duplicated in Matthew; and 88% is found in Luke.

97% of Mark is duplicated verbatim in Matthew. Matthew sourced Mark and added some theology.

These are myths. Islam is a myth, the Gospels are a myth.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
First you didn't answer or respond to the discussion? It IS the consensus and it wasn't Carriers work. He was using papers from other historians.b You had something to say but now are oddly silent and are moving the topic completely to posting scripture from Matthew?





Yeah that's in the Quran as well. It's in all religions. You claim there are disbelievers, they follow satan, they have to be saved, blah, blah

Quran, Ya Sin 36. Already hath the judgment, (for their infidelity) proved true of most of them, for they believe not.
Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not, it is alike for them, for they believe not.
Burn therein this day for that ye disbelieved.
To warn whosoever liveth, and that the word may be fulfilled against the disbelievers.

Then when you say you are not Muslim they throw verse at you proving that Islam is true. Words from Allah. It must be right! It's words from GOD!!!!
It's right BECAUSE IT SAYS SO!

See every religion gets to do it. Every religion wrote firey words about non-believers and how they will not believe and they must be influenced by Satan. In ancient times people thought this stuff was true. Every culture had their own version. It still isn't any more real than the Quran.

Matthew is just copying Mark and adding his personal ideas about how to make it better. Christian scholarship has determined this.
From your religion, The Synoptic Problem | Bible.org

"It is quite impossible to hold that the three synoptic gospels were completely independent from each other. In the least, they had to have shared a common oral tradition. But the vast bulk of NT scholars today would argue for much more than that.

When one compares the synoptic parallels, some startling results are noticed. Of Mark’s 11,025 words, only 132 have no parallel in either Matthew or Luke. Percentage-wise, 97% of Mark’s Gospel is duplicated in Matthew; and 88% is found in Luke.

97% of Mark is duplicated verbatim in Matthew. Matthew sourced Mark and added some theology.

These are myths. Islam is a myth, the Gospels are a myth.

All fair and well. As long as you state whether you start from methodological naturalism or something else.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Hebrews 11:1 NIV. Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.


It’s terrible to see how people use and abuse this verse without bothering to understand the context. Please refrain from quoting it if you are too lazy to understand the correct meaning of it.


This text speaks of real, saving faith in God. Each example of biblical faith in this chapter demonstrates trust, based on what that person knew about how God acted in the past and the reassurance that God would act in the same way now or in the future.


That is evidence-based faith!!!!

The "assurance" of saving faith is, therefore, not blind belief. It is based on the proof found in history. It is the belief that God cannot change and can be trusted to on doing what He had done in the past.

Evidence based faith? The evidence is where? In ancient mythology?

Religion, Identity and the Origins of Ancient Israel

K.L. Sparks, Baptist Pastor, Professor Eastern U.

As a rule, modern scholars do not believe that the Bible's account of early Israel's history provides a wholly accurate portrait of Israel's origins. One reason for this is that the earliest part of Israel's history in Genesis is now regarded as something other than a work of modern history. Its primary author was at best an ancient historian (if a historian at all), who lived long after the events he narrated, and who drew freely from sources that were not historical (legends and theological stories); he was more concerned with theology than with the modern quest to learn 'what actually happened' (Van Seters 1992; Sparks 2002, pp. 37-71; Maidman 2003). As a result, the stories about Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph are almost as problematic as an historical source is the book of Exodus. ..."

"Generally, Moses is seen as a legendary figure, whilst retaining the possibility that Moses or a Moses-like figure existed in the 13th century BCE."
"Van Seters concluded, 'The quest for the historical Moses is a futile exercise. He now belongs only to legend.' ... ""

Those ancient stories modeled after Mesopotamian and Babylonian myths are not proof of anything. If they are than Lord of the Rings is proof of magic.

All religions claim evidence based faith in the scripture? Islam does the same. Allah does all sorts of amazing things, in the story?


Victory - Allah promiseth you much booty that ye will capture, and hath given you this in advance, and hath withheld men's hands from you, that it may be a token for the believers, and that He may guide you on a right path.


Stories are not evidence for Allah being real and the OT is not evidence of Yahweh being real.

A study of the various characters mentioned in this chapter shows that they all had good reasons to trust in God. Their faith was based on past experiences.
We find the same thing many times in Scripture – the confidence that God will make good on His promises.

Yes it's amazing what Allah, Lord Krishna and other Gods and demigods can do in stories. We have seen this in real life, never.

The great figures of the Old Testament, such as Abraham, Moses, and David, all lived according to this type of faith. This is saving faith that inspires real Christians towards a more confident faith.

Except in real life Christians don't get miracles, visits from Yahweh giving stone tablets and hearing a loud booming voice, chariots on pillars of smoke and fire, fights with sea monsters. Those are ancient tales, fiction. Christians, like Muslims and all other religions and atheists die at the exact same rate from disease. If a disease has a 50% mortality rate and you look at 100 Christians who has the illness, about 50 will die. Tornadoes hit churches with people inside. The earthquake in Lisbon in 1755 hit at a time most people were in church. Over 60,000 people died, mostly in churches.
The randomness and probabilities of life happen the same to religious and non-religious exactly the same.
Sometimes things you pray for happen. Sometimes they don't so you say "God has better plans". Eventually better things work out (or you die) and you blame God. Meanwhile this is exactly how everyones life plays out.
Islam has faith that they are in the correct religion and so does all others in every other religion. There is no evidence for Islam and no evidence for any other religion.

This post uses fiction to justify faith. You are debunking it for me?
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
In C,S. Lewis’ view, “The heart of Christianity is a myth which is also a fact. The old myth of the Dying God, without ceasing to be myth, comes down from the heaven of legend and imagination to the earth of history. It happens — at a particular date, in a particular place, followed by definable historical consequences".

“We pass from a Balder or an Osiris, dying nobody knows when or where, to a historical Person crucified (it is all in order) under Pontius Pilate. By becoming fact it does not cease to be myth: that is the miracle.”


Well I'm glad Lewis at least knew dying/rising savior demigods were popular before Jesus.

First several of the dying/rising demigods were set on Earth. Second Paul did not know, ghost Jesus never told him, and never said it was on Earth.
It became set on Earth in Mark. Resurrecting saviors undergoing a passion in the celestial realm and then later stories were written and set on Earth was not uncommon.
Mark is definitely fiction and the source of the tale. Mark uses verbatim passages from the OT, he uses Pauls letters to craft stories and its's highly mythic literature. Improbable events, unsourced, anonymous, no explanations of unusual events (unlike histories), ring structure, triadic inversions, chiasmus (all improbable and never used in non-fiction). Jesus in Mark scores as high as King Arthur on the rank Ragalin mythotype scale.
Besides the earlier saviors were very similar. Heaven, souls, redemption, saviors, souls going to heaven, all Hellenistic concepts.
YOu are saying Yahweh didn't tell his people for 12 centuries about these things but then when they saw the Greek and Persian version they adopted it and it happened to all be correct? That is so unlikely? OR, it's religious syncretism. That is 100% more likely.

Lewis was simply delusional and also didn't have all the historical facts. I mean just the idea of "oh yeah it's a common myth but our version, that one time it's real?"
But the updates to Islam, no that's fake. The updates in Mormonism, that's fake.......just the one Lewis believes. No chance.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
All fair and well. As long as you state whether you start from methodological naturalism or something else.
The religions themselves don't exclude the supernatural from science. All sorts of physical things happen through magic in the scripture. They obviously don't happen outside of the text so religious people make claims that the supernatural cannot be studied. Yet in the religion they believe heaven is literally in outer space and miracles are frequent. As are dead people raising from the grave. Somehow "spiritual" has been moved to another dimension but 2000 years ago it was all here?
 
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