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There is no evidence for God, so why do you believe?

F

Firelight

Inactive member
joelr said:
Oh this -
"He doesn’t want to convince you that He is real." Well that is highly suspect. Kind of looks like you just chose the only question that you could manipulate and use as an answer without admitting you are not speaking to a deity?
There is a whole religion, the most evangelizing religion, and you claim this God doesn't want people believing in him?
First there is definitely no good evidence for any God. Yes like those who claim they are having a relationship with Lord Krishna or Allah I do believe you also have an imaginary deity.
You said to try. It doesn't take that long to meditate, slow breathing, quiet your mind and listen for some type of communication beyond my subconscious mind. Are you suggesting that repeated attempts are needed? I am already familiar with meditation and praying. It shouldn't take a long process?
No, faith is not a path to truth. Hindu have faith they are speaking to Lord Krishna, Muslims have faith they are in contact with Allah. White Supremacists have faith that their race is superior. The Nazi party had faith that the Germanic race was superior. Since faith can be demonstrated to be unreliable evidence is needed. A God of the universe would not be unaware of this basic fact. No God would be that basic and rely on tools that are known to be extremely faulty.
I didn't ask you to challenge God, I asked for an answer to a few simple questions? Of course I expected the same old apologetics that you are now giving but it's always worth a try?
Now what's odd here is you did say you can prove God - "believe because God can prove to me that He is real in a matter of seconds, "
You said he gives you information that is beyond your intellect. Super! Please ask God how can we quantize gravity?
Wow it's funny that God gives you information beyond your intellect but all these religious people working in the medical field on things like cancer drugs, he doesn't want to give that one away?
" I know full well it’s not my own thoughts answering because I don’t possess the kind of intelligence that I receive. "
If you come in with claims about communication with a deity then you are going to be asked about evidence. If you claim the answers are "beyond your intelligence" than we should in fact be getting some good information.
Because for one I'm always open to new evidence. If someone makes a claim, a rather extraordinary claim about answers being above your intelligence then we should see some extraordinary evidence. Not defensive behavior. If you are coming to a forum (a debate forum none the less?) what are you expecting? If you just want praise or like-minded people why would you go to a debate forum?
Of course it's a fantasy. When people provide evidence then it might be something more.
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Your comments are mostly angry BS. They are close-minded and extremely self-righteous. Your words show signs of know-it-all-ism, which is really words of foolish-ism.

I expect a tidbit of open-mindedness and words of intelligence on a debate forum, not foul attitudes and stale sentences that have been repeated a gazillion times over and over and over. I don’t expect someone to think they are winning points by misconstruing another’s comments, or by responding with lengthy, asinine speeches. Quite a few folk on this thread do that. These actions don’t show confident debating habits.

Your comments show no understanding of what faith is. Thinking one’s race is superior is NOT faith, that would be a thought, a belief, pride, haughtiness. Faith IS evidence. I’m not familiar with praying by “meditating” and “breathing slow.” I don’t know what “apologetics” are, either.

You certainly did ask me to challenge God. “Ask God what my name is and tell me,” “quantize gravity,” “where do I live.” You wanted proof through me... that is challenging God. It shows you don’t know how faith and prayer work. It isn’t “psychic” or “crystal ball” or “magic” powers.

I never said I could prove God. You directly quoted my sentence, yet you twisted it around using your interpretation. I said God can prove to ME he’s real. I said I can ask him questions and get answers. I didn’t say I can ask him questions for other people and get them answers. Religious people know prayers and getting answers to prayers are personal. It’s a common practice. You said something about being a former believer and knowing about prayer. Even if you never achieved getting answers, you should be familiar that other people do.
 
It Aint Necessarily So

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Firelight said:
Your comments are mostly angry BS. They are close-minded and extremely self-righteous. Your words show signs of know-it-all-ism, which is really words of foolish-ism.
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He's angry? No, he's posting dispassionately. You're posting emotionally.

Furthermore, there is nothing closed-minded in his post, nor self-righteous.

And you rebutted none of it. I found his argument sound, which makes it correct until somebody can find a fallacy in it. That's how correctness is decided among critical thinkers. The last plausible, unrebutted argument is king. Ask any jury.

Firelight said:
I expect a tidbit of open-mindedness and words of intelligence on a debate forum, not foul attitudes and stale sentences that have been repeated a gazillion times over and over and over.
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There's more of your anger. Isn't there another way you could have written this if you weren't angry? I frequently challenge the posting habits and etiquette of other posters, but neve like this. Isn't that what I'm doing now? In fact, didn't I just tell you that, "Your comments are mostly angry BS," but without the anger?

Firelight said:
Your comments show no understanding of what faith is. Thinking one’s race is superior is NOT faith, that would be a thought, a belief, pride, haughtiness. Faith IS evidence.
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Your comments show me that YOU don't know what faith is. Thinking one's race is superior without sufficient supporting evidence IS faith, and faith no only isn't evidence, it doesn't involve evidence. Religious-type faith is nothing more or less than belief without sufficient evidentiary support. If you have that, it's not faith. If you don't have that, it is. It's really that simple.
 
SkepticThinker

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
InChrist said:
I think it is hard to explain what answered prayer looks like because each answered prayer looks different and each is specifically and uniquely suited for the situation and the individual praying. Sometimes, I don’t think I am even aware of all the ways God answers my prayers. At other times, it has been obvious.
Are you familiar with George Mueller? He lived from 1805-1898, took care of orphans in Bristol, England, totally depending on God to provide for the needs of the orphanage.
“Through his orphanage in Bristol, Mueller cared for as many as two thousand orphans at a time—more than ten thousand in his lifetime. Yet he never made the needs of his ministries known to anyone except to God in prayer. Only through his annual reports did people learn after the fact what the needs had been during the previous year and how God had provided.

Mueller had over fifty thousand specific recorded answers to prayers in his journals, thirty thousand of which he said were answered the same day or the same hour that he prayed them. Think of it: that’s five hundred definite answers to prayer each year—more than one per day—every single day for sixty years! God funneled over half a billion dollars (in today’s dollars) through his hands in answer to prayer.”

What George Mueller Can Teach Us about Prayer
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So there's no real way to tell then. It's basically just wishful thinking and confirmation bias.
Sounds like this guy took care of those orphans all by himself. He must be a lot more special than the starving kids of the world, to have his prayers answered so quickly like that! Or, perhaps he took the initiative and answered his own prayers, as I suspect.

InChrist said:
Now, concerning the other point you brought up about mothers praying for their starving children. First, I find that subject a rather theoretical distraction that skeptics like to often bring up. I’m not saying starving children are theoretical, just the way skeptics attempt to use them to attack God. For one thing, how do you really have any way of knowing that God does not answer or how He may have answered those who have prayed? Secondly, I think starvation is the fault of humanity, not God. God has provided this earth with more than adequate resources and there is plenty of food in the world to feed everyone. The fault lies with the corrupt greedy and selfish nature of man in disobedience to God. Instead of acting as trustworthy stewards of the world’s resources, nations and individuals often hoard food, mismanage resources, and squander money instead of seeing that people are fed. So why are you blaming God for starving children when people have the ability and responsibility to care for one another? Thirdly, have you personally asked God for anything in prayer? Have been willing to wait for an answer in His timing and His way? Have you gone before God with a pure heart and attitude of humility seeking answers?

Just some of my thoughts and questions in response to yours. Have a good night.
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Theoretical distraction? Something like three million children die of starvation worldwide, every year. How do I know their parents prayers weren't answered? Well, three million children die every year from starvation.

Now you're claiming starvation is humanity's fault and so I guess it's not God's fault that he doesn't provide nourishment to the children whose mothers are praying every day for them to live? But God answers all kinds of other prayers like helping someone's football team win the big game or helping grandma get the money she needs for her next mortgage payment. But starving children? Nah, that's mankind's fault so God doesn't care? Sorry but that makes zero sense, and I think, just goes to make my point about all this answered prayers business being bogus.

My uncle once very exuberantly prayed over my father's dying body. My father died anyway, as I knew he would. So when it comes to death, I guess God turns is back, or doesn't exist.
That same uncle also prayed for his cancerous tumour to go away. It kept growing. It wasn't until he sought medical attention that it started shrinking.


Thanks for your time. You have a great day!
 
Sheldon

Sheldon

Veteran Member
ElishaElijah said:
That has been my claim all along, all of that and still haven’t heard from anyone yet of the things you are saying about other people and their changed lives and direction. I would have to test those, but you’re just talking and hypothetical people right now.
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Yet you have expected us to take your word for this? I have turned my life around more than once, and I am an atheist. One assumes you will extend me the same courtesy I have to your unevidenced claim?
 
Sheldon

Sheldon

Veteran Member
ElishaElijah said:
This story reminds me of a lot of people in this thread:
“As he was passing by, he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” Jesus answered. “This came about so that God’s works might be displayed in him. We must do the works of him who sent me while it is day. Night is coming when no one can work. As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.” After he said these things he spit on the ground, made some mud from the saliva, and spread the mud on his eyes. “Go,” he told him, “wash in the pool of Siloam” (which means “Sent”). So he left, washed, and came back seeing. His neighbors and those who had seen him before as a beggar said, “Isn’t this the one who used to sit begging?” Some said, “He’s the one.” Others were saying, “No, but he looks like him.” He kept saying, “I’m the one.” So they asked him, “Then how were your eyes opened?” He answered, “The man called Jesus made mud, spread it on my eyes, and told me, ‘Go to Siloam and wash.’ So when I went and washed I received my sight.” “Where is he?” they asked. “I don’t know,” he said. They brought the man who used to be blind to the Pharisees. The day that Jesus made the mud and opened his eyes was a Sabbath. Then the Pharisees asked him again how he received his sight. “He put mud on my eyes,” he told them. “I washed and I can see.” Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, because he doesn’t keep the Sabbath.” But others were saying, “How can a sinful man perform such signs?” And there was a division among them. Again they asked the blind man, “What do you say about him, since he opened your eyes?” “He’s a prophet,” he said. The Jews did not believe this about him — that he was blind and received sight — until they summoned the parents of the one who had received his sight. They asked them, “Is this your son, the one you say was born blind? How then does he now see?” “We know this is our son and that he was born blind,” his parents answered. “But we don’t know how he now sees, and we don’t know who opened his eyes. Ask him; he’s of age. He will speak for himself.” His parents said these things because they were afraid of the Jews, since the Jews had already agreed that if anyone confessed him as the Messiah, he would be banned from the synagogue. So a second time they summoned the man who had been blind and told him, “Give glory to God. We know that this man is a sinner.” He answered, “Whether or not he’s a sinner, I don’t know. One thing I do know: I was blind, and now I can see!” Then they asked him, “What did he do to you? How did he open your eyes?” “I already told you,” he said, “and you didn’t listen. Why do you want to hear it again? You don’t want to become his disciples too, do you?” They ridiculed him: “You’re that man’s disciple, but we’re Moses’s disciples. We know that God has spoken to Moses. But this man — we don’t know where he’s from.” “This is an amazing thing!” the man told them. “You don’t know where he is from, and yet he opened my eyes. We know that God doesn’t listen to sinners, but if anyone is God-fearing and does his will, he listens to him. Throughout history no one has ever heard of someone opening the eyes of a person born blind. If this man were not from God, he wouldn’t be able to do anything.” “You were born entirely in sin,” they replied, “and are you trying to teach us?” Then they threw him out. Jesus heard that they had thrown the man out, and when he found him, he asked, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?” “Who is he, Sir, that I may believe in him?” he asked. Jesus answered, “You have seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you.” “I believe, Lord!” he said, and he worshiped him. Jesus said, “I came into this world for judgment, in order that those who do not see will see and those who do see will become blind.” Some of the Pharisees who were with him heard these things and asked him, “We aren’t blind too, are we?” “If you were blind,” Jesus told them, “you wouldn’t have sin. But now that you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.”
‭‭John‬ ‭9:1-22, 24-41‬ ‭CSB‬‬
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You seem to have entirely ignored the point, and simply quoted biblical text?
 
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