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There is no evidence for God, so why do you believe?

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Were The Four Gospels Written Anonymously?
Well you can review the evidence yourself

I just explained my review of the subjective opinion of that religious apologist's website? It's is not objective evidence, read my post.

"Biblical scholars and scholarly historians are not the same thing, though of course they need not be mutually exclusive. However it is an historical fact that the names assigned the gospels, Mathew Mark Luke and John, did not appear until the 2nd century, the earliest writings of those gospels were anonymous. Biblical scholars can and do also hold subjective beliefs, but you are I'm afraid conflating the latter with historical facts, when beliefs can and are held on nothing but faith, whereas historical facts are subject to much higher criteria and methods of validation. The gospel names were assigned at the first council of Nicaea, but are made up.

Your links are the subjective opinions of a Christian apologist, it's in the title at the top of the page, he offering subjective beliefs. You are simply Googling what you want to believe, it's up to you of course, but meaningless in a debate. As this religious apologists beliefs are not objective evidence for the claims he makes, and do not change the fact that earliest writings of the gospels were unauthored or anonymous, and the very earliest written account is decades after the events they purport to describe. The authors speculation they reflect contemporary documents is just his subjective belief, and he can offer no historical evidence to support this. You will find innumerable blogs on the internet from religious apologists making this type of claim. The fact that the earliest written accounts of the gospels were unauthored is not a subjective opinion, no credible historian disputes this."
 
I find that it is the faith-based thinker who loses sight of what faith actually is, as he tends to see it as a virtue and a path to truth. It is neither. It is merely the willingness to believe as true that which ha not been demonstrated to be correct. Where's the virtue there? What could be a less meaningful and less examined belief than one acquired that way. And why faith, which can't possibly be a path to truth if all ideas including wrong ideas can be believed by faith?
This just isn’t correct. This is what biblical faith is:
“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good testimony. By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible. But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:1-3, 6‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
“For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.””
‭‭Romans‬ ‭4:3‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

“So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

If you don’t hear God then you can’t have faith/trust/belief that He will do what He said. When a person acts on what God promised and told them to do they find out God is faithful to His promises.
 
I just explained my review of the subjective opinion of that religious apologist's website? It's is not objective evidence, read my post.
I read all your posts and understand the atheist scholars view and motive, sorry to say that they lack credibility.
I also read the biblical scholars and what they base their views and findings on and it’s a solid foundation of evidence and proof.
Now as far as anecdotal comments… I’ve already lived and tried just about all the world has to offer, heard and done just about everything the world has to offer and found this type of life empty, hopeless and a path to death.
When I received Christ, He was the one I was looking for all along, none of your comments or flimsy scholarships can change anything of what I know and have obtained from God.
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I find that it is the faith-based thinker who loses sight of what faith actually is, as he tends to see it as a virtue and a path to truth. It is neither. It is merely the willingness to believe as true that which has not been demonstrated to be correct.

This just isn’t correct. This is what biblical faith is:

“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good testimony. By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible. But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.” Hebrews‬ ‭11:1-3
“For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.””‭‭Romans‬ ‭4:3‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
“So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

If you don’t hear God then you can’t have faith/trust/belief that He will do what He said. When a person acts on what God promised and told them to do they find out God is faithful to His promises.

I don't go to the Bible for matters such as what faith is, nor to believers. Why would I? I don't need scripture to tell me what faith is. I can see how people acquire faith-based ideas. I can see the process. I can see what people believe by faith and the lack of sufficient evidentiary support they have for those beliefs, yet they believe anyway.

Scripture considers it a virtue, encourages it, and discourages critical thought, which is the only other path to belief, and the only one that generates demonstrably correct beliefs. Faith is not a virtue. It's an abdication of the self and the gifts we are born with, the reasoning faculty and the moral faculty (conscience), each of which is an enemy of received wisdom that is unreasonable or feels immoral. Much of Christian doctrine, believed by faith, fits either or both of those categories.

Faith is guessing, not a virtue. Anybody can do it. I could guess that you are wrong if I had no other way to decide the matter, and that guess would be on the same foundation as yours: none at all.

I realize that you have been taught otherwise, but I consider your teaching incorrect, although that first quote from Hebrews is close to correct, as long as one understands that hope has no substance and that faith is not evidence of anything except the willingness to believe without sufficient evidentiary support. And of course, faith is not hope, but belief. I hope for America to solve its gun problems, but don't believe it will based on evidence. If I assumed that that it would succeed, that would be faith, not mere hope, which implies uncertainty and preference, not belief, which is what faith generates.
 

Riders

Well-Known Member
I read all your posts and understand the atheist scholars view and motive, sorry to say that they lack credibility.
I also read the biblical scholars and what they base their views and findings on and it’s a solid foundation of evidence and proof.
Now as far as anecdotal comments… I’ve already lived and tried just about all the world has to offer, heard and done just about everything the world has to offer and found this type of life empty, hopeless and a path to death.
When I received Christ, He was the one I was looking for all along, none of your comments or flimsy scholarships can change anything of what I know and have obtained from God.

I have not seen any evidence or proof.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
You still don’t understand. Pantheism is a type of theism, like monotheism and polytheism. Absolutely! Yet, it’s impossible to criticize using standard atheist arguments, because of the fact that they simply don’t apply. This is the point I’m making. That you don’t feel any sense of awe and majesty, worship or reverence towards the Cosmos is about all you can say truthfully. But of course, this is a conceptual thing. Many individuals (myself among them) feel that sense. You cannot say, unlike with the conception of a transcendent, supernatural Creator, that the Universe does not have independent reality. It would be pure nonsense.

I don't know why you keep saying I don't understand? There are different types of pantheism. Yours may be more theistic.
It is not impossible to criticize using standard atheists arguments? Why would it be impossible? Yes the universe has independent reality but your feelings are not a reliable marker to what is true in the sense of divinities and such.
In fact the "feeling" side of the argument is covered in the Stanford entries on philosophy under different types of pantheism. Feelings are great but to say something is universally true you need evidence. You think atheists haven't heard "the universe is God because I feel it"? I'm not denying your feelings but it does not demonstrate that the universe is God any more than a Christian who says Jesus is real because I feel it. A sense of awe and majesty, worship or reverence is also a common argument for religions.

"Pantheism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

8. Evoking religious emotion
Most straightforwardly it has been maintained that the One is holy because we feel a particular set of religious emotions towards it. (Levine 1994, ch.2.2) For Rudolf Otto, (1917) whatever is holy or ‘numinous’ is so characterised on the basis of our non-rational, non-sensory experience of it rather than its own objective features and, taking its departure from Otto’s work, one approach has been to argue that the feelings of awe which people feel towards God can be, and often are, applied to the universe itself. Whether it is really possible, or appropriate, to entertain such feelings towards the cosmos as a whole will be discussed below, but the chief point to make here concerns the extreme subjectivism of this response; it’s coming to rest upon feelings which, while sincere enough, indicate nothing whatsoever about the universe itself. On this view, all that distinguishes a pantheist from an atheist is feeling; a certain emotional reaction or connection that we feel to the universe. It would become akin, say, to the difference between one who loves art and another who is relatively indifferent to it. Prima facie, however, this approach puts the cart before the horse; rather than say that the One is divine because we feel a set of religious emotions towards it, it seems more appropriate to suppose that we feel those emotions towards it because we think it is divine
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Thanks for your responses: Here is what your name means:
Meaning, origin and history of the name Joel

Non Sequitur. Can you address the actual arguments?

BTW many modern Greek names are names of pervious Gods that were worshipped. Same with Indian names. Now people know they are named after fictional beings. It is of no concern.
By the way, saying this is now widely accepted is probably correct because the way is wide that leads to destruction, many will travel that road.

Destruction happens. It will have nothing to do with Horus, Zeus, Jesus or any other mythology. Again, Non Sequitur.

But to conclude you are following the truth is another matter altogether, the other biblical scholars hold to the traditional view which will shows the Bible is the true account and the other works just counterfeits just like Satan loves to do to deceive people.
And that’s all your views are…from other people, with no experience or thoughts of your own.

The consensus of the Biblical historicity field is that the Bible is religious mythology. Satan is a mythical character in the story, that means he also isn't real. Your last statement is highly ironic and desperate. First you follow a religion that other people told you was true. You never bothered to actually check and see if this might just the the same as Islam or Hinduism where millions of people believe something that isn't true because you are completely unfamiliar with any of the scholarship. You defense is satan influenced them? So what is actually true is simply not something you are interested in. You want to stick to what you believe is true (from other people).
Then to have the nerve to admonish someone for using experts only rather than amateur crank is beyond belief. What's worse is I was Christian, understand the theology and apologetics then studied Biblical archaeology and historicity and had the courage to think for myself and take the loss and admit I was wrong and what I believed was false. The more I learned the more I realized Christianity is no different than Islam or any other religion where people believe fiction as if it's real.


A blog by a person who is - Christian Author, Philosopher, and Apologist? He lists a bunch of Theologians. Then when it comes to listing actual historians he lists 13 of them. HA! Right off the bat none of the specialists are there except Ehrman. The Jesus studies specialist, Dr Carrier, Acts - Robert Purvoe, Mark/Synoptic Problem - Goodacre, Gnostic Gospels - Elaine Pagels, Moses historicity - Thomas Thompson, Mythicism - Lataster, Price, Crossan, Sanders, and so on.

Yes we all know Christians get indoctrinated and go get theology degrees? Theology isn't concerned with where did the stories come from, are they actually true? They pretend it's true and study the text. It's the same thing Islamic scholars do? Guess what, there are HUNDREDS OF ISLAMIC SCHOLARS AS WELL? Doesn't make it true?
In fact when you then take a position at a Christian University you have to sign a statement saying you will never openly disagree with the tenants of the religion!!!!


So this is a useless addition? Let's see what else you got.


OH MY GOD!!!! This is a history article written by "Christian Author, Philosopher, and Apologist?" And over 1/2 of his sources ARE THE BIBLE???????????? It's true because it says so????????? You cannot be serious with this? What few sources he has are just theologians and apologists? No history here whatever?
If you are going to submit scholarship it needs to be scholarship????? A peer-reviewed paper.

One left, maybe this time we will see something?


Oh No, It's the same amateur, and now he disagrees with the ENTIRE FIELD OF REAL CHRISTIAN SCHOLARSHIP???????


"f you read the comments of atheist and progressive Christian New Testament scholars, you will notice that they often say the four Gospels were written anonymously. The idea behind this assertion is an effort to discredit the Gospels and call into question, their credibility, concerning the testimony written about Jesus in the four Gospels."


HA, he calls the field of Christian scholars "progressive" because they don't agree with this amateur crank? Then he invokes a conspiracy theory that this is "all an effort to discredit....." Uh, of course it can never be what it really is with these crank apologists, that's the actual information they find? The gospels are anonymous because they actually don't say in the original Greek who the author is and they start out with Greek for "as told to me by......"


You can believe whatever amateur conspiracy crank you like but for people who care about what is actually true there are fields and specialists who spend their entire lives studying this information to give the most accurate picture of what the information we have says and means. You are not interested in that at all. This is Area 51, Roswell level crank.

But this post has helped to show why you believe false things.
 
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joelr

Well-Known Member
Were The Four Gospels Written Anonymously?
Well you can review the evidence yourself


He started out with a conspiracy theory:
" you will notice that they often say the four Gospels were written anonymously. The idea behind this assertion is an effort to discredit the Gospels and call into question, their credibility, concerning the testimony written about Jesus in the four Gospels."

Total loon. It's because they are literally anonymous.

"In John’s Gospel he tells us why he and the other three writers of the Synoptic Gospels, did not place their names at the top of these documents.

“Those who speak for themselves want glory only for themselves, but a person who seeks to honor the one who sent him speaks truth, not lies.” ~John 7:18"

Uh, no? Jesus was talking about his message from God and words he just said. This isn't about other Gospels at all?

"It was Jesus’ example of humility and lack of effort to exalt Himself, that set the pattern for how the Gospel writers would record their testimony about Jesus. "

John was the last Gospel he wasn't setting any pattern? The Gospels are pretending to write words from someone else not recording testimony? The Epistles had no problem putting names to the source?

What does a Christian scholar say?
“the [New Testament] Gospels are actually anonymous writings….the titles we are accustomed to seeing were likely added later by scribes.” "
The age-old tradition that the canonical Gospels were authored by Mark the companion of Peter, Luke the physician to Paul, Matthew the tax collector, and John the Disciple comes down to us from the second century CE Patristic era of the Catholic Church.[2] Yet, even the Catholic Church now recognizes that those traditional titles are pseudonymous. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, “the first four historical books of the New Testament are supplied with titles (Euangelion kata Matthaion, Euangelion kata Markon, etc.), which, however ancient, do not go back to the respective authors of those sacred writings. […] It thus appears that the present titles of the Gospels are not traceable to the evangelists themselves.”

"To start, there is the observation that not a single Gospel writer names himself within the text as composer of any New Testament gospel. This means that the Gospels are internally anonymous."

Another indication that the Gospels were written anonymously is that the earliest external attestations to the Gospels refer to them without the traditional names attached. The Didache (an early Christian treatise), Justin Martyr (c. 155 CE), and possibly even Polycarp (c. 120 – 140 CE) and Ignatius (c. 115 CE) account for our earliest sources exhibiting awareness of writings that appear to correspond with the New Testament Gospels. However, each of the above-named sources treat the gospels anonymously.

The Didache (pronounced did·eh·kay) is another example of an early Christian source from this period that treats the gospels anonymously. This treatise shares phrases and content found particularly in the Gospel of Matthew. In fact, chapter 8 of the Didache quotes the Lord’s Prayer as written in Matthew 6:9-13, and indeed attributes the quote to a written source, but not to ‘Matthew.’ Instead, the Didache refers to its written source as “his [the Lord’s] Gospel” – without providing attribution to the disciple ‘Matthew’ (see full quote footnoted here [11]). Elsewhere, the Didache refers to its written source as “the Gospel of the Lord” and as the “ordinances of the Gospel.”[12] Again, anonymous attributions.

Prior to Irenaeus in 180 CE providing the very first attestation to a Gospel attributed to ‘Luke’, a fellow named Marcion of Sinope (c. 140 CE) possessed a slightly shorter and simpler form of this same Gospel, which was not identified with Luke or any specific author. Rather, this gospel text was circulated with the title “Euaggelion Kuriou” (‘The Gospel of the Lord’).[14] To reiterate, this Gospel was in circulation approximately 40 years before any source ascribed the name “Luke” as its author.
Furthermore, the Greek preposition κατα (“according to”) is not per se understood as a claim to a specific individual’s authorship, as the phrase “according to” in this context is best taken to mean “handed down from” a tradition or community associated with the attached name. For example, there is the Gospel according to the Nazarenes, the Gospel according to the Ebionites, the Gospel according to the Egyptians, the Gospel according to the Hebrews, and many others. So, from these examples we can see that the phrase “according to” is not referenced to named individuals, but is a designation for sectarian groups.[17]

Finally, the Fourth Gospel (aka, Gospel of John) provides us with a glaring clue that this text was originally penned anonymously – namely, that the narrative goes out of its way to avoid explicitly identifying the author by name. Whoever wrote this Gospel employed a rhetorical technique to shroud the source’s identity behind the moniker “the disciple whom Jesus loved.” The purpose of this literary device was to prompt the reader to utilize textual and narrative signals within the story to discern the identity of this person. But why even bother with this coy rhetorical technique if “John” simply slapped his name onto the title of the Gospel? This would completely defeat his literary purpose.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
It is interesting that when we read the opinions of atheist and progressive Christian scholars who insinuate that the Gospels were written anonymously, they provide us with no evidence this is true.


So he's literally lying here. I provided several of the points scholarship makes to show the documents are anon but the arguments are far longer and I left some out. Does he really not know any of this? I think he does. He's writing apologetics for laymen who will take his word. You are being lied to.


When we examine the extensive work of early Christian Apologist, Origen, he knew the identity of each author for all 27 books of the New Testament, by 240 A.D. The oldest known list of New Testament books is called the Muratorian Fragment. Dated near 170 A.D.,


Of course he picks the earliest possible date. Not agreed on by many real scholars -

in 2003, one Biblical historian noted that "both this early dating and the Roman origin of the Muratorian canon list have been strongly challenged" and claimed that "it is now widely regarded as a fourth-century list of eastern origin"


Because we do not have these first autographs of the four Gospels, we cannot say for certain that they were not originally written in either Hebrew or Aramaic, and did not have the authors names attached.


Yes we can. The documents use techniques only being taught at the Greek school. They are also using Greek myths and Greek style:

The Hellenistic World: The World of Alexander the Great


Hellenistic thought is evident in the narratives which make up the books of the Bible as the Hebrew Scriptures were revised and canonized during the Second Temple Period (c.515 BCE-70 CE), the latter part of which was during the Hellenic Period of the region. The gospels and epistles of the Christian New Testament were written in Greek and draw on Greek philosophy and religion as, for example, in the first chapter of the Gospel of John in which the word becomes flesh, a Platonic concept.



It is important to understand that there are 97 unnamed works of literature, from before Christ, all the way up to the twenty-first century.3 No serious historian has ever doubted the identity of these secular writings, or considered these works of literature invalid because the authors names were not attached.


Who is he writing this for? Historians and non-Christians don't disbelieve this because the Gospels are anonymous? We know who wrote Lord of the Rings, it's still fiction? People don't believe it because it's Jewish/Greek mythology?


At the same time, Ehrman asserts that much of the text in the four Gospels came from an unknown “Q” document that also has no name attached and there has never been any evidence that this document actually exists. How is it that Ehrman can place such confidence in the Q document and derive such authority from it with no proof of its existence or knowledge of who wrote it, but also claim that we cannot trust the four Gospels because there are no names attached to them?


Q Gospel has been mostly debunked by Goodacres work. Mark is the source. Ehrman doesn't not trust Mark because it's anonymous? It's written as a myth using older myths. The same reason he doesn't believe the Quran is the reason, it isn't real? It's a fictional savior demigod narrative?



"

Evidence That Matthew Is The Author Of The Gospels That Bears His Name




There are arguments against this. But Matthew is accepted as a creative re-interpretation of Mark so it doesn't matter.



The Synoptic Problem | Bible.org



Percentage-wise, 97% of Mark’s Gospel is duplicated in Matthew; and 88% is found in Luke. Beyond that there are 7 strong arguments as to why Mark is the source



Ten times, after Jesus fulfilled a particular prophecy from the Old Testament, Matthew said: This was done so that the words of the prophet might be fulfilled.




The Gospel writers clearly wrote the text using the OT as a guide because we find several times stories are re-worked or used verbatim. So of course they wrote that the main character fulfilled prophecies? This just proves people wrote stories continuing older stories?







If you doubt my assertion, read one of the books by Bart Ehrman and notice that he is able to write a 300 page books about the unreliability of the New Testament, without providing a single piece of evidence to support his conclusions. All that you will find are Ehrman’s opinions.




Wow he hates Ehrman. He's also lying like crazy. Ehrman always backs up his work. It's insane that he actually says all Ehrman has is opinion? What he;s doing (besides lying) is hoping people won't read Ehrman because he absolutely uses evidence. Not only does he use evidence, he does free lectures on the topics and gives the information away free?





Here is one on YouTube:

Are the Gospels Historically Reliable? The Problem of Contradictions




None of the historians believe in these tales? This author is dishonest and if debunkable by me an actual historical scholar would destroy him.

No evidence? Richard Carriers book on the Historicity of Jesus has a 42 page book source, a 13 pg scripture index and footnotes on every page.

This article is absolute dishonest crank.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
This just isn’t correct. This is what biblical faith is:
“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good testimony. By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible. But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:1-3, 6‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
“For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.””
‭‭Romans‬ ‭4:3‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

“So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

If you don’t hear God then you can’t have faith/trust/belief that He will do what He said. When a person acts on what God promised and told them to do they find out God is faithful to His promises.


And Muhammad heard Allah and the message is Christians are wrong:

108 Or would ye question your messenger as Moses was questioned aforetime? He who chooseth disbelief instead of faith, verily he hath gone astray from a plain road.

109 Many of the people of the Scripture long to make you disbelievers after your belief, through envy on their own account, after the truth hath become manifest unto them. Forgive and be indulgent (toward them) until Allah give command. Lo! Allah is Able to do all things.



God speaks to messengers and if you ignore the message, a painful doom


49:2 O ye who believe! Lift not up your voices above the voice of the Prophet, nor shout when speaking to him as ye shout one to another, lest your works be rendered vain while ye perceive not.
49:3 Lo! they who subdue their voices in the presence of the messenger of Allah, those are they whose hearts Allah hath proven unto righteousness. Theirs will be forgiveness and immense reward.


You are not the only one who gets to make special claims and claim you are being "spoken to". You may have given yourself a message but others claim also to have messages. They claim they have updates and the true path out of hell.
Even newer updates are now in the Bahai religion. As long as these claims are made on unverifiable belief in magic and magical beings there will be endless cults all claiming to be the right one.

I do not think you are hearing words. Just feelings. Generated from your mind.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
[
Harry Potter books and the Biblical account aren’t close to being on the same level. The Bible has historical, archeological, eye witness testimony written by the apostles, the early church demonstrations of the power of the Holy Spirit confirmed by scholars and historians of that time period I’ve already presented.
My testimony is also evidence because it lines up with the biblical testimonies of the change people experienced when they received Christ.

We have demonstrated the historicity fields is fully in consensus that the Bible is mythology.

Historians of the time you haven't mentioned but all just speak of people who follow the gospels. One called them "harmless superstition". We can go through all of them, name one. None of them confirm any truth to the religion. Not one.

The apostles are characters in a story.

The "power" of the holy spirit didn't impress people of that period. Most Jews didn't convert. By 3AD Christianity was less than 10%. Almost 300 years later?

Archaelogical?William Dever, Professor Emeritus of the University of Arizona, has investigated the archeology of the ancient Near East for more than 30 years

: From the beginnings of what we call biblical archeology, perhaps 150 years ago, scholars, mostly western scholars, have attempted to use archeological data to prove the Bible. And for a long time it was thought to work. [William Foxwell] Albright, the great father of our discipline, often spoke of the "archeological revolution." Well, the revolution has come but not in the way that Albright thought. The truth of the matter today is that archeology raises more questions about the historicity of the Hebrew Bible and even the New Testament than it provides answers, and that's very disturbing to some people.


Bible says they came from Egypt and conquered Canaan. But archaeology doesn't say that. It doesn't agree with many many things? SO again, you have been misled.

Q: Is there mention of the Israelites anywhere in ancient Egyptian records?

Dever: No Egyptian text mentions the Israelites except the famous inscription of Merneptah dated to about 1206 B.C.E. But those Israelites were in Canaan; they are not in Egypt, and nothing is said about them escaping from Egypt.

Q: Tell us more about the Merneptah inscription. Why is it so famous?

Dever: It's the earliest reference we have to the Israelites. The victory stele of Pharaoh Merneptah, the son of Ramesses II, mentions a list of peoples and city-states in Canaan, and among them are the Israelites. And it's interesting that the other entities, the other ethnic groups, are described as nascent states, but the Israelites are described as "a people." They have not yet reached a level of state organization.

So the Egyptians, a little before 1200 B.C.E., know of a group of people somewhere in the central highlands—a loosely affiliated tribal confederation, if you will—called "Israelites." These are our Israelites. So this is a priceless inscription.

Q: Does archeology back up the information in the Merneptah inscription? Is there evidence of the Israelites in the central highlands of Canaan at this time?

Dever: We know today, from archeological investigation, that there were more than 300 early villages of the 13th and 12th century in the area. I call these "proto-Israelite" villages.

Forty years ago it would have been impossible to identify the earliest Israelites archeologically. We just didn't have the evidence. And then, in a series of regional surveys, Israeli archeologists in the 1970s began to find small hilltop villages in the central hill country north and south of Jerusalem and in lower Galilee. Now we have almost 300 of them.

THE ORIGINS OF ISRAEL
Q: What have archeologists learned from these settlements about the early Israelites? Are there signs that the Israelites came in conquest, taking over the land from Canaanites?

Dever: The settlements were founded not on the ruins of destroyed Canaanite towns but rather on bedrock or on virgin soil. There was no evidence of armed conflict in most of these sites. Archeologists also have discovered that most of the large Canaanite towns that were supposedly destroyed by invading Israelites were either not destroyed at all or destroyed by "Sea People"—Philistines, or others.

So gradually the old conquest model [based on the accounts of Joshua's conquests in the Bible] began to lose favor amongst scholars. Many scholars now think that most of the early Israelites were originally Canaanites, displaced Canaanites, displaced from the lowlands, from the river valleys, displaced geographically and then displaced ideologically.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
That’s the worst thing I could imagine for someone.
No, you haven't countered any evidence or presented any evidence. You just made claims based on myths, presented conspiracy level apologetics and showed why what you believe definitely isn't real and that you are committed to believing only what you want to be true.
 

samtonga43

Well-Known Member
My comment has nothing to do with whether there are spiritual truths, but whether you and your claims are credible. With your approach, even if I believed that spiritual things were real, I would have no reason to believe that you had any idea what you are talking about.
I would have thought that he had more of an idea what he is talking about than you do, Policy. Doesn't his experience of his life count for anything?
 
No, you haven't countered any evidence or presented any evidence. You just made claims based on myths, presented conspiracy level apologetics and showed why what you believe definitely isn't real and that you are committed to believing only what you want to be true.
Quite a bit right here:
A List Of Conservative And Liberal Bible Scholars
I have presented a multitude of evidence which if you say I haven’t then you just didn’t read anything I cited.
Here is just a paragraph of why the atheist view is disqualified as a biblical scholar:

According To The Author Of The Bible, There Are 7 Requirements For A Person Who Will Be A True Bible Scholar:

  1. They must believe God Exists (Hebrews 11:6).
  2. They must seek to know God with all of their heart (Jeremiah 29:13).
  3. They must first repent from all sin (Matthew 4:17).
  4. They must be born again by faith in Jesus’ death and resurrection (Acts 16:31).
  5. They must be filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38).
  6. They must diligently study the entire Bible for a lifetime (Daniel 2:21).
  7. They must continue to believe in Jesus for all their life (Matthew 24:13. The Ruse Of Atheist New Testament Scholars. When you say most scholars say…the list of 90+ biblical scholars cited here hold this view: The preceding persons hold that God exists in the person of Jesus the Messiah. The Bible is true, reliable, and represents God’s revelation of Himself to the world. The miracles of Jesus, His crucifixion and resurrection, are all true events that took place just as the writers of the New Testament describe them. Conservative New Testament Scholars hold that the Gospels were written early in the first century, by eyewitnesses who saw and heard what is written in the text.
 
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Five Solas

Active Member
It's your claim that you talk to magic deities
Did he/she use those words?
The least you can try is to present what other posters say correctly. If you are not able to do that, then you represent your sources in the same sloppy way.
If this is how you operate, no one should take you seriously.
 

Five Solas

Active Member
It is merely the willingness to believe as true that which ha not been demonstrated to be correct.
Wrong. That is not what Christians believe or claim.
Saving faith is based on the reliability of God which He had demonstrated clearly in history. Saving faith is firmly based on knowledge of God.
You are making fun of your personal misrepresentation of what we believe.
 

Five Solas

Active Member
The resurrection exists in Mark. A fictional narrative where the writer admits the main character teaches in parables, showing the story is a parable, uses literary devices only used in fiction, no sources or explanations for unusual events (like in histories), copies Kings, Psalms verbatim, Pauls letters, and the main character scores 18 out of 22 on the rank Ragalin mythotype scale. As high as King Arthur. Savior demigods who rose in 3 days was a popular myth before Jesus and all the changes from Judaism to Christianity are from Hellenism.

There are no historian eyewitness accounts of Jesus, just Christians who follow the gospels. One historian who investigated then called them harmless superstition.
The gospels are anonymous, non-eyewitness and Matthew and Luke are sourced from Mark according to Christian scholarship.

So it's just Mark. A myth. Which was NOT documented carefully because the earliest fragment we have of it is from late 2nd century.

The actual 2nd century was at least 50% Gnostic and radically different from the current canon. The first canon - Marcionite is unknown. 1/2 of the Epistles and 38 of the Gospelks are consider forgeries compared to the canon which is likely also just made up.
So what you say is wildly innaccurate.

2nd century
These various interpretations were called heresies by the leaders of the proto-orthodox church, but many were very popular and had large followings. Part of the unifying trend in proto-orthodoxy was an increasingly harsh anti-Judaism and rejection of Judaizers. Some of the major movements were:

In the middle of the second century, the Christian communities of Rome, for example, were divided between followers of Marcion, Montanism, and the gnostic teachings of Valentinus.
What I get from all your many words is that you do not believe in God, Jesus Christ, or in the accuracy if Scripture. So, you reject the evidence.
So, I do not expect anything else. Those with no faith in God, cannot understand the things of God and will be blind to the truth - or the real evidence if that is the wording you prefer. I know that No clever argument will convince you otherwise. You are blind to the truth and the evidence as well.
It is futile to enter into a debate with anyone like you.

About your 'debating' style. You habitually use sweeping statements. The truth is putty in your hands. That alone makes it impossible to enter into a serious discussion with you. A sweeping statement is not proof of anything, it is a personal opinion.

As for me:
My presupposition is that God exists and that He created all that is.
I believe in God.
I believe that Jesus Christ is God.
I believe that Scripture is an accurate account of how God revealed Himself to humanity and how He acted in history.
As of yet, I have never found any proof to the contrary, only countless arguments by non- believers.
 
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