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There is no evidence for God, so why do you believe?

joelr

Well-Known Member
According to wikipedia zoroaster doesn't predate Jesus like I said before:
Zoroaster - Wikipedia

None of this what you said give any concrete evidence that resurrection predates Jesus' resurrection, I can with same weight claim that Jesus is first to be resurrected.


Even worse, your source is just WIKI??????? Which scholar wrote that? DO you have a copy? Did you read it? I give the leading scholars and a Jesus historian and you are all "WIKI SAYS.......?"

So you trust sources, just not the experts, consensus in a historical field, none of those, but "Wiki" is a good source???

And your dates even then still pre-dated Jesus? Is this a joke?
 

paradox

(㇏(•̀ᵥᵥ•́)ノ)
First of all I quoted Mary Boyce who is the leading scholar. Look her up?
Second the wiki page you sourced gives these dates?
somewhere in the second millennium BC. Other scholars date him in the 7th and 6th century BC

Second millenium is BEFORE 1000BC?


Boyce
Nora Elisabeth Mary Boyce (2 August 1920 – 4 April 2006) was a British scholar of Iranian languages, and an authority on Zoroastrianism. She was Professor of Iranian Studies at the School of Oriental and African Studies (SOAS) of the University of London.[1] The Royal Asiatic Society's annual Boyce Prize for outstanding contributions to the study of religion is named after her

In 1944, Boyce joined the faculty of the Royal Holloway College, University of London, where she taught Anglo-Saxon literature and archaeology until 1946. Simultaneously she continued her studies, this time in Persian languages,[3] under the guidance of Vladimir Minorsky at the School of Oriental and African Studies from 1945 to 1947. There she met her future mentor, Walter Bruno Henning, under whose tutelage she began to study Middle Iranian languages.

In 1948, Boyce was appointed lecturer of Iranian Studies at SOAS, specialising in Manichaean, Zoroastrian Middle Persian and Parthian texts. In 1952, she was awarded a doctorate in Oriental Studies from the University of Cambridge. At SOAS, she was promoted to Reader (1958–1961) and subsequently awarded the University of London's professorship in Iranian Studies following Henning's transfer to the University of California at Berkeley.

Boyce remained professor at SOAS until her retirement in 1982, continuing as Professor Emerita and a professorial research associate until her death in 2006. Her speciality remained the religions of speakers of Eastern Iranian languages, in particular Manichaeanism and Zoroastrianism.



This is her dates on Zoroaster


The language of the Gathas is archaic, and close to that of the Rigveda (whose composition has been assigned to about 1 700 B. c. onwards); and the picture of the world to be gained from them is correspon,dingly ancient, that of a Stone Age society. Some allowance may have to be made for literary conservatism; and it is also possible that the 'Avestan' people (as Zoroaster's own tribe is called for want of a better name) were poor or isolated, and so not rapidly influenced by the developments of the Bronze Age. It is only possible therefore to hazard a reasoned conjecture that Zoroaster lived some time between 1 700 and 1 500 B.C
This history is very vague and precise dates are unknown.
But bigger issue than this is that there is no evidence on development of Zoroastrianism, we don't know whether resurrection was present in Zoroastrianism from the very beginning or whether it come later into their dogma.

for example:
The claim you have come across is that Zoroastrianism, with its dualism, influenced Judaism and, therefore, also Christianity. It is hard to prove either that Zoroastrianism influenced Judaism or that Judaism influenced Zoroastrianism. It is even harder to prove that they did NOT influence each other. What we can say is that Abraham and Moses both lived long before Zoroaster. The Mosaic Law, the Psalms of David and many of the prophets wrote before Zoroaster was even born. Therefore it is common sense to conclude it is more likely that Judaism influenced Zoroaster than vice versa.
Does Zoroastrianism predate Christianity and is the idea that Christianity borrowed the resurrection of Jesus from the religion believable? – Evidence for Christianity
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
According to wikipedia zoroaster doesn't predate Jesus like I said before:
Zoroaster - Wikipedia

None of this what you said give any concrete evidence that resurrection predates Jesus' resurrection, I can with same weight claim that Jesus is first to be resurrected.


YOUR SOURCE
Some scholars[8] such as Mary Boyce (who dated Zoroaster to somewhere between 1700 and 1000 BC) used linguistic and socio-cultural evidence to place Zoroaster between 1500 and 1000 BC (or 1200 and 900 BC)


Some scholars[8] such as Mary Boyce (who dated Zoroaster to somewhere between 1700
and 1000 BC) used linguistic and socio-cultural evidence to place Zoroaster between 1500 and 1000 BC (or 1200 and 900 BC)


Elements of Zoroastrian philosophy entered the West through their influence on Judaism

The Persian period saw the development of expectation in a future human king who would rule purified Israel as God's representative at the end of time – that is, a messiah.

"Same weight" LOL! You are really making my case here.
So you can say that Mary Boyce, the worlds leading authority on Zoroastrianism who writes that the Persian Revelations which includes resurrection and dated by her to 1600BC, you can say "with the same weight" she is wrong?
Even though your source said 6BC which is still before the 2nd Temple Period when the Hebrews were influenced by the Persians.
You can disregard your source as well and say they are both wrong. "With the same weight" you can say that your fictional story was the first........
 

paradox

(㇏(•̀ᵥᵥ•́)ノ)
"Same weight" LOL! You are really making my case here.
So you can say that Mary Boyce, the worlds leading authority on Zoroastrianism who writes that the Persian Revelations which includes resurrection and dated by her to 1600BC, you can say "with the same weight" she is wrong?
Sorry but I saw no paper of her claim that resurrection dates back to 1600 BC, where can I get it? googling doesn't help me so how can I verify?
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
This history is very vague and precise dates are unknown.
But bigger issue than this is that there is no evidence on development of Zoroastrianism, we don't know whether resurrection was present in Zoroastrianism from the very beginning or whether it come later into their dogma.

for example:

Does Zoroastrianism predate Christianity and is the idea that Christianity borrowed the resurrection of Jesus from the religion believable? – Evidence for Christianity




Cool, I'm sorry, what degree does John Oakes have? Is he a peer-reviewed PhD historian or an amateur apologist whos butthurt that the myths he thinks are true might have been taken from another religion?

Oh look, - John Oakes is a Christian apologist and a professor of chemistry at Grossmont College. He belongs to the Restoration Movement of the Christian tradition.

This is a joke. There are so many errors in this article it's insane. Just one -
"For example, the claim that Zoroastrians believe Zoroaster was resurrected simply is not true. "

No, Zoroaster never claimed that, the Revelation myth is from the Persians. It's dated to at least 6 BC.
Revelations


but Zoroaster taught that the blessed must wait for this culmination till Frashegird and the 'future body' (Pahlavi 'tan i pasen'), when the earth will give up the bones of the dead (Y 30.7). This general resurrection will be followed by the Last Judgment, which will divide all the righteous from the wicked, both those who have lived until that time and those who have been judged already. Then Airyaman, Yazata of friendship and healing, together with Atar, Fire, will melt all the metal in the mountains, and this will flow in a glowing river over the earth. All mankind must pass through this river, and, as it is said in a Pahlavi text, 'for him who is righteous it will seem like warm milk, and for him who is wicked, it will seem as if he is walking in the • flesh through molten metal' (GBd XXXIV. r 8-r 9). In this great apocalyptic vision Zoroaster perhaps fused, unconsciously, tales of volcanic eruptions and streams of burning lava with his own experience of Iranian ordeals by molten metal; and according to his stern original teaching, strict justice will prevail then, as at each individual j udgment on earth by a fiery ordeal. So at this last ordeal of all the wicked will suffer a second death, and will perish off the face of the earth. The Daevas and legions of darkness will already have been annihilated in a last great battle with the Yazatas; and the river of metal will flow down into hell, slaying Angra Mainyu and burning up the last vestige of wickedness in the universe.

Ahura Mazda and the six Amesha Spentas will then solemnize a lt, spiritual yasna, offering up the last sacrifice (after which death wW be no more), and making a preparation of the mystical 'white haoma', which will confer immortality on the resurrected bodies of all the blessed, who will partake of it. Thereafter men will beome like the Immortals themselves, of one thought, word and deed, unaging, free from sickness, without corruption, forever joyful in the kingdom of God upon earth. For it is in this familiar and beloved world, restored to its original perfection, that, according to Zoroaster, eternity will be passed in bliss, and not in a remote insubstantial Paradise. So the time of Separation is a renewal of the time of Creation, except that no return is prophesied to the original uniqueness of living things. Mountain and valley will give place once more to level plain; but whereas in the beginning there was one plant, one animal, one man, the rich variety and number that have since issued from these will remain forever. Similarly the many divinities who were brought into being by Ahura Mazda will continue to have their separate existences. There is no prophecy of their re-absorption into the Godhead. As a Pahlavi text puts it, after Frashegird 'Ohrmaid and the Amahraspands and all Yazads and men will be together. .. ; every place will resemble a garden in spring, in which

there are all kinds of trees and flowers ... and it will be entirely the creation of Ohrrnazd' (Pahl.Riv.Dd. XLVIII, 99, lOO, l07).


He says Moses is older but you JUST SOURCED A WIKI ARTICLE that says they don't know, he might have lived in 1600 BC. Mary Boyce, the scholar who spent her life studying this thought there was enough evidence for this. The apologist, chemistry teacher doesn't agree.



"This includes Matthew, John and Peter. If the Jesus story is a myth, then some of the greatest, most honest and sacrificial people who ever lived, such as Paul, John, Matthew and others were blatant liars. "

Christian scholarship has long since ad,mitted Matthew is a creative re-interpretation of Mark (synoptic problem), yes they wrote fiction. So does all of the Muslim religious writers, Mormon writers, Hindu writers......

"he Bible says that Jesus was raised from the dead is that there were more than 500 eye-witnesses to the fact, as reported by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:6."

The Bible is fiction. Paul claimed to see a ghost Jesus already in heaven. Yes, he stretched the truth.


"The early church did not borrow the idea of the resurrection from a religion which radically contradicts the Christian message. "

No, Mark a skilled writer in Greek fiction did.

" You will not find any of the claimed parallels between Jesus and Zoroaster in these books. "

The Persian religion influenced Judaism in other ways already mentioned. Resurrection, Satan, Revelation, God vs Evil


"As for parallels, there is an idea of bodily resurrection in Zoroastrianism. Whether this was included in the religion before the time of Christ is hard to say, but what we can say is that, in any case, the Avesta does not claim that Zoroaster himself was resurrected from the dead. So much for the parallel between Jesus and Zoroaster and for the idea that the church got the idea of the resurrection from the Avesta. "

So he admits it. But noone ever said Jesus was modeled after Zoroaster??? He's a Greek dying/rising demigod of salvation?


"They claim that his was a virgin birth."

As I demonstrated the world savior will be virgin born in the Persian Revelation myth above?


"It is hard to prove either that Zoroastrianism influenced Judaism or that Judaism influenced Zoroastrianism. "

No it's not. Historians are fully aware that Judaism was influenced by the Persian religion.


" The ones which are perhaps arguably indeed parallel are more likely explained by borrowing of Zoroastrianism from Christianity th"

During the Persian occupation there was no Christianity. This is when the OT began prophecizing messianic saviors already in Zoroastrianism.

Literally every sentence this man says is wrong. Your source is a chemistry teacher. Not ONE source. Every sentence contained an error or a fallacy. This stuff is awful. People believe this?
You do not care about what is actually true.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Sorry but I saw no paper of her claim that resurrection dates back to 1600 BC, where can I get it? googling doesn't help me so how can I verify?

Everything from Boyce is from her book

http://www.dnzt.org/images/BOOKS-PHOTOS/ENGLISH BOOKS/Zoroastrians-Their-Religious-Beliefs-and-Practices-MaryBoyce.pdf


Zoroaster was thus the first to teach the doctrines of an individual judgment, Heaven and Hell, the future resurrection of the body, the general Last Judgment, and life everlasting for the reunited soul and body. These doctrines were to become familiar articles of faith to much of mankind, through borrowings by Judaism, Christianity and Islam;
pg 29









The language of the Gathas is archaic, and close to that of the Rigveda (whose composition has been assigned to about 1 700 B. c. onwards); and the picture of the world to be gained from them is correspon,dingly ancient, that of a Stone Age society. Some allowance may have to be made for literary conservatism; and it is also possible that the 'Avestan' people (as Zoroaster's own tribe is called for want of a better name) were poor or isolated, and so not rapidly influenced by the developments of the Bronze Age. It is only possible therefore to hazard a reasoned conjecture that Zoroaster lived some time between 1 700 and 1 500 B.C

We have much information about the Persians in 5 B.C. from the Israelites. Even if he lived in 6BC the mythology was in place during the Persian occupation and it radically transformed Judaism. But Hellenism was even bigger and there is much more evidence of it's dates and myths. The Greek dates are not in question. Hellenistic religion is 300-1BC.


Carrier gives original sources in his article and is only using pre-Christian myths
 
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paradox

(㇏(•̀ᵥᵥ•́)ノ)
He says Moses is older but you JUST SOURCED A WIKI ARTICLE that says they don't know, he might have lived in 1600 BC.
Even if he lived 1600 BC, which it seems very unlikely, this still doesn't predate Abraham.

Literally every sentence this man says is wrong. Your source is a chemistry teacher. Not ONE source. Every sentence contained an error or a fallacy.
Feel free to consider my source wrong, I can google out some better sources if you wish but until then...

Prophet Daniel chapter 12 dates back to 539 BC, this is pretty precise date, chapter 12 talks about resurrection of the dead.
On another side there is no such precise date or evidence that zoroaster lived before that date, therefore how can Mary Boyce be sure that zoroaster predated Daniel?
 
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paradox

(㇏(•̀ᵥᵥ•́)ノ)
Everything from Boyce is from her book

http://www.dnzt.org/images/BOOKS-PHOTOS/ENGLISH BOOKS/Zoroastrians-Their-Religious-Beliefs-and-Practices-MaryBoyce.pdf


Zoroaster was thus the first to teach the doctrines of an individual judgment, Heaven and Hell, the future resurrection of the body, the general Last Judgment, and life everlasting for the reunited soul and body. These doctrines were to become familiar articles of faith to much of mankind, through borrowings by Judaism, Christianity and Islam;
pg 29









The language of the Gathas is archaic, and close to that of the Rigveda (whose composition has been assigned to about 1 700 B. c. onwards); and the picture of the world to be gained from them is correspon,dingly ancient, that of a Stone Age society. Some allowance may have to be made for literary conservatism; and it is also possible that the 'Avestan' people (as Zoroaster's own tribe is called for want of a better name) were poor or isolated, and so not rapidly influenced by the developments of the Bronze Age. It is only possible therefore to hazard a reasoned conjecture that Zoroaster lived some time between 1 700 and 1 500 B.C

We have much information about the Persians in 5 B.C. from the Israelites. Even if he lived in 6BC the mythology was in place during the Persian occupation and it radically transformed Judaism. But Hellenism was even bigger and there is much more evidence of it's dates and myths. The Greek dates are not in question. Hellenistic religion is 300-1BC.


Carrier gives original sources in his article and is only using pre-Christian myths
There is one issue with the book of Mary Boyce, it start with:
Zoroastrianism is the oldest of the revealed world-religions
which is simply not true, why would the rest of the book then be considered valid? if the very start is biased and subjective.
 
So anyone who disagrees with anything the bible says is being influenced by demons?

Do think slavery is ever morally justifiable in the way it is described in Exodus 21, or are you being influenced by demons? :rolleyes:
Do you understand what Ephesians 2 is saying or you breaking your own logic rules by bringing up a slavery question?
 
Of course they all come from my physical brain, why would I think otherwise? Damage my brain badly enough, and my consciousness disappears forever. Fleshy desires? They're the best kind mun...:D:rolleyes:
Our thoughts are more than just chemical reactions, how do you explain some of the horrendous, depraved things that people do to themselves or other people? It’s more than just human influence, its demonic influence and people act on the demonic suggestions.
 
Jesus didn't give up and save himself because he is the main character in a Jewish version of the Greek dying/rising savior demigod myth? As Mark tells us, it's a parable.

Again, as we see Mark partially used Psalms when crafting that part of the myth. There are many other obvious sources as well.
Mark 15.24: “They part his garments among them, casting lots upon them.”

Psalm 22:18: “They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon them.”

Mark 15.29-31: “And those who passed by blasphemed him, shaking their heads and saying, ‘…Save yourself…’ and mocked him, saying ‘He who saved others cannot save himself!’ ”

Psalm 22.7-8: “All those who see me mock me and give me lip, shaking their head, saying ‘He expected the lord to protect him, so let the lord save him if he likes.’ ”

Mark 15.34: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

Psalm 22.1: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

On top of these links, Mark also appears to have used Psalm 69, Amos 8.9, and some elements of Isaiah 53, Zechariah 9-14, and Wisdom 2 as sources for his narratives. Pauls letters, a transfiguration of the Romulus narrative and more...
Mark showed how Jesus fulfilled prophecy, proving Jesus is the Messiah. You are not thinking correctly about the Bible.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
if you want to know what it means to be an American would you ask someone from China?

No, but that's not relevant to the current discussion. I'm not asking what it means to be a Christian. Why would I? I've been one.

Nor am I asking what the Bible means. I have eyes. It's in English. I've read it. I've never read a book that I have to ask what it means. It may mean more than what it says. It may have a message the way the Lord of the Flies did that might escape a young reader, but even the young reader can understand what the words mean if those words are in his vocabulary. The Bible was created for unsophisticated listeners (and later, readers), people who didn't know where the rain came from, or why the earth shook. Many of its stories could have been written into other traditions. The stories of Jonah and Job could have been Aesop fables, and Revelation could have come out of Viking mythology.

Our thoughts are more than just chemical reactions, how do you explain some of the horrendous, depraved things that people do to themselves or other people? It’s more than just human influence, its demonic influence and people act on the demonic suggestions.

Chemicals are up to the task. Alcohol and steroids mimic what you attribute to demons:

images


Mark showed how Jesus fulfilled prophecy, proving Jesus is the Messiah. You are not thinking correctly about the Bible.

You're not thinking correctly about the Bible. The Old Testament shows clearly that Jesus was not the messiah prophesied. It seems that only Christians can't see that. All one need do is make a list of characteristic of the Messiah from the Old Testament and compare them to Jesus. The unbeliever can see that there is almost no overlap, even if the believer can't.
 
No, but that's not relevant to the current discussion. I'm not asking what it means to be a Christian. Why would I? I've been one.
By your comments sounds like you participated in religious activities but were never born again. If you’re saying you were a Christian then you wouldn’t be saying now that there is no God or Jesus Christ. You would be more like Judas who sold out Christ for money and knew what he did.

You're not thinking correctly about the Bible. The Old Testament shows clearly that Jesus was not the messiah prophesied. It seems that only Christians can't see that. All one need do is make a list of characteristic of the Messiah from the Old Testament and compare them to Jesus. The unbeliever can see that there is almost no overlap, even if the believer can't.
See what I mean, this is a comment by an unbeliever not someone who was ever a
Christian.
Isaiah 53, Psalms 22, Isaiah 9 are crystal clear. Just 3 of many.
The other thing God was preparing Israel for the Messiah by the Feasts, especially Passover, the angel of death passes over the homes with the blood on the door post and lintel. Jesus our Passover Lamb, His blood shed for us, He was crucified at Passover, so
great! Why not any other day?
 
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Sheldon

Veteran Member
According to wikipedia zoroaster doesn't predate Jesus like I said before:
Zoroaster - Wikipedia

None of this what you said give any concrete evidence that resurrection predates Jesus' resurrection, I can with same weight claim that Jesus is first to be resurrected.

<CITATION>
"Ancient accounts tell of an important figure whose birth would be heralded by a star in the heavens, a god who would later judge the dead. He would be murdered in a betrayal by one close to him, his body hidden away — though not for long, as he would return in a miraculous resurrection to begin an eternal reign in heaven.

To his legions of followers, he (and his resurrection) came to symbolize the promise of eternal life. The figure, Osiris, was the supreme god in ancient Egypt, only one of many pagan gods worshipped thousands of years before the birth of Jesus. Indeed, though Jesus is currently the best-known example of a resurrected figure, he is far from the only one."
 
<CITATION>
"Ancient accounts tell of an important figure whose birth would be heralded by a star in the heavens, a god who would later judge the dead. He would be murdered in a betrayal by one close to him, his body hidden away — though not for long, as he would return in a miraculous resurrection to begin an eternal reign in heaven.

To his legions of followers, he (and his resurrection) came to symbolize the promise of eternal life. The figure, Osiris, was the supreme god in ancient Egypt, only one of many pagan gods worshipped thousands of years before the birth of Jesus. Indeed, though Jesus is currently the best-known example of a resurrected figure, he is far from the only one."
Very interesting how your citation of Osiris, a green god of fertility and all that jazz, is twisted like a pretzel to try to make similarities to Jesus Christ yet, when scripture prophesies clearly like in Isaiah 9, Isaiah 53, Psalms 22 there is tremendous denial.
Biblical Prophecies Fulfilled by Jesus Christ - Bible Resources
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Sheldon said:
So anyone who disagrees with anything the bible says is being influenced by demons?

Do think slavery is ever morally justifiable in the way it is described in Exodus 21, or are you being influenced by demons? :rolleyes:
Do you understand what Ephesians 2 is saying or you breaking your own logic rules by bringing up a slavery question?

Another question ignored.

Do you think anyone who disagrees with the bible is being influenced by demons? Your post suggested you did.

If you do then you must either agree with the appalling endorsement of slavery in Exodus 21, or by your own rationale are being influenced by demons.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Our thoughts are more than just chemical reactions,

You've lost me sorry, our thoughts are derived from a functioning physical brain, when it dies our consciousness disappears.

how do you explain some of the horrendous, depraved things that people do to themselves or other people?

I don't understand the question sorry?

It’s more than just human influence, its demonic influence and people act on the demonic suggestions.

I don't believe you, and simply repeating the claim endlessly won't it make it any less an unevidenced subjective belief, or any more compelling.
 
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