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There is no evidence for God, so why do you believe?

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
There's multiple ways to acheive atonement.
One of the biggest problems that I can see with Christians that believe the "Once saved always saved" heresy is that far too many of them believe that they only have to apologize to God. They almost never atone for their sins. Atonement is a very useful idea. It allows a wronged party and the one in the wrong to proceed as if the event never happened. It makes it much more likely that a person will be forgiven by those that he wronged.
 
There's multiple ways to acheive atonement.
Who told you that?
“In the same way, he sprinkled the tabernacle and all the articles of worship with blood. According to the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Therefore, it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves to be purified with better sacrifices than these. For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with hands (only a model of the true one) but into heaven itself, so that he might now appear in the presence of God for us. He did not do this to offer himself many times, as the high priest enters the sanctuary yearly with the blood of another. Otherwise, he would have had to suffer many times since the foundation of the world. But now he has appeared one time, at the end of the ages, for the removal of sin by the sacrifice of himself. And just as it is appointed for people to die once — and after this, judgment  —  so also Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:21-28‬ ‭CSB‬‬
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
What is the Day of Atonement then?

“The Lord spoke to Moses after the death of two of Aaron’s sons when they approached the presence of the Lord and died. The Lord said to Moses, “Tell your brother Aaron that he may not come whenever he wants into the holy place behind the curtain in front of the mercy seat on the ark or else he will die, because I appear in the cloud above the mercy seat. “Aaron is to enter the most holy place in this way: with a young bull for a sin offering and a ram for a burnt offering. He is to wear a holy linen tunic, and linen undergarments are to be on his body. He is to tie a linen sash around him and wrap his head with a linen turban. These are holy garments; he must bathe his body with water before he wears them. He is to take from the Israelite community two male goats for a sin offering and one ram for a burnt offering. “Aaron will present the bull for his sin offering and make atonement for himself and his household. Next he will take the two goats and place them before the Lord at the entrance to the tent of meeting. After Aaron casts lots for the two goats, one lot for the Lord and the other for an uninhabitable place, he is to present the goat chosen by lot for the Lord and sacrifice it as a sin offering. But the goat chosen by lot for an uninhabitable place is to be presented alive before the Lord to make atonement with it by sending it into the wilderness for an uninhabitable place. “When Aaron presents the bull for his sin offering and makes atonement for himself and his household, he will slaughter the bull for his sin offering. Then he is to take a firepan full of blazing coals from the altar before the Lord and two handfuls of finely ground fragrant incense, and bring them inside the curtain. He is to put the incense on the fire before the Lord, so that the cloud of incense covers the mercy seat that is over the testimony, or else he will die. He is to take some of the bull’s blood and sprinkle it with his finger against the east side of the mercy seat; then he will sprinkle some of the blood with his finger before the mercy seat seven times. “When he slaughters the male goat for the people’s sin offering and brings its blood inside the curtain, he will do the same with its blood as he did with the bull’s blood: He is to sprinkle it against the mercy seat and in front of it. He will make atonement for the most holy place in this way for all their sins because of the Israelites’ impurities and rebellious acts. He will do the same for the tent of meeting that remains among them, because it is surrounded by their impurities. No one may be in the tent of meeting from the time he enters to make atonement in the most holy place until he leaves after he has made atonement for himself, his household, and the whole assembly of Israel. Then he will go out to the altar that is before the Lord and make atonement for it. He is to take some of the bull’s blood and some of the goat’s blood and put it on the horns on all sides of the altar. He is to sprinkle some of the blood on it with his finger seven times to cleanse and set it apart from the Israelites’ impurities. “When he has finished making atonement for the most holy place, the tent of meeting, and the altar, he is to present the live male goat. Aaron will lay both his hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the Israelites’ iniquities and rebellious acts — all their sins. He is to put them on the goat’s head and send it away into the wilderness by the man appointed for the task. The goat will carry all their iniquities into a desolate land, and the man will release it there. “Then Aaron is to enter the tent of meeting, take off the linen garments he wore when he entered the most holy place, and leave them there. He will bathe his body with water in a holy place and put on his clothes. Then he must go out and sacrifice his burnt offering and the people’s burnt offering; he will make atonement for himself and for the people. He is to burn the fat of the sin offering on the altar. The man who released the goat for an uninhabitable place is to wash his clothes and bathe his body with water; afterward he may reenter the camp. The bull for the sin offering and the goat for the sin offering, whose blood was brought into the most holy place to make atonement, must be brought outside the camp and their hide, flesh, and waste burned. The one who burns them is to wash his clothes and bathe himself with water; afterward he may reenter the camp. “This is to be a permanent statute for you: In the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month you are to practice self-denial and do no work, both the native and the alien who resides among you. Atonement will be made for you on this day to cleanse you, and you will be clean from all your sins before the Lord. It is a Sabbath of complete rest for you, and you must practice self-denial; it is a permanent statute. The priest who is anointed and ordained to serve as high priest in place of his father will make atonement. He will put on the linen garments, the holy garments, and make atonement for the most holy place. He will make atonement for the tent of meeting and the altar and will make atonement for the priests and all the people of the assembly. This is to be a permanent statute for you, to make atonement for the Israelites once a year because of all their sins.” And all this was done as the Lord commanded Moses.”
‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭16:1-34‬ ‭CSB‬‬

Then if you read Hebrews this is explained how Jesus Christ fulfilled this Feast and is the once and for all sacrifice for sin and the High Priest that entered the Most Holy Place in Heaven and presented His own blood at the Heavenly altar for us once and for all.

“Since the law has only a shadow of the good things to come, and not the reality itself of those things, it can never perfect the worshipers by the same sacrifices they continually offer year after year. Otherwise, wouldn’t they have stopped being offered, since the worshipers, purified once and for all, would no longer have any consciousness of sins? But in the sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year after year. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Therefore, as he was coming into the world, he said: You did not desire sacrifice and offering, but you prepared a body for me. You did not delight in whole burnt offerings and sin offerings. Then I said, “See — it is written about me in the scroll — I have come to do your will, God.” After he says above, You did not desire or delight in sacrifices and offerings, whole burnt offerings and sin offerings (which are offered according to the law), he then says, See, I have come to do your will. He takes away the first to establish the second. By this will, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time. Every priest stands day after day ministering and offering the same sacrifices time after time, which can never take away sins. But this man, after offering one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God. He is now waiting until his enemies are made his footstool. For by one offering he has perfected forever those who are sanctified. The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. For after he says: This is the covenant I will make with them after those days, the Lord says, I will put my laws on their hearts and write them on their minds, and I will never again remember their sins and their lawless acts. Now where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer an offering for sin. Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have boldness to enter the sanctuary through the blood of Jesus  —  he has inaugurated for us a new and living way through the curtain (that is, through his flesh) —  and since we have a great high priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed in pure water. Let us hold on to the confession of our hope without wavering, since he who promised is faithful. And let us consider one another in order to provoke love and good works, not neglecting to gather together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging each other, and all the more as you see the day approaching. For if we deliberately go on sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire about to consume the adversaries. Anyone who disregarded the law of Moses died without mercy, based on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think one will deserve who has trampled on the Son of God, who has regarded as profane the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know the one who has said, Vengeance belongs to me; I will repay, and again, The Lord will judge his people. It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Remember the earlier days when, after you had been enlightened, you endured a hard struggle with sufferings. Sometimes you were publicly exposed to taunts and afflictions, and at other times you were companions of those who were treated that way. For you sympathized with the prisoners and accepted with joy the confiscation of your possessions, because you know that you yourselves have a better and enduring possession. So don’t throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. For you need endurance, so that after you have done God’s will, you may receive what was promised. For yet in a very little while, the Coming One will come and not delay. But my righteous one will live by faith; and if he draws back, I have no pleasure in him. But we are not those who draw back and are destroyed, but those who have faith and are saved.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:1-39‬ ‭CSB‬‬
Eisegetical gymnastics.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
How do the Jews approach God? They have no temple, no sacrifices, no Holy of Holies, all that has been gone. What happened to all that? The veil was torn in 2 when Jesus was crucified showing that He was the Way to God’s presence now.
Except that, for the Jews, he isn’t. You’re superimposing your theology on to theirs. It doesn’t work that way.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness
1 kings 8:46-50

NIV:
46When they sin against You—for there is no one who does not sin—and You become angry with them and deliver them to an enemy who takes them as captives to his own land, whether far or near, 47and when they come to their senses in the land to which they were taken, and they repent and plead with You in the land of their captors, saying, ‘We have sinned and done wrong; we have acted wickedly,’ 48and when they return to You with all their heart and soul in the land of the enemies who took them captive, and when they pray to You in the direction of the land that You gave to their fathers, the city You have chosen, and the house I have built for Your Name, 49then may You hear from heaven, Your dwelling place, their prayer and petition, and may You uphold their cause. 50May You forgive Your people who have sinned against You and all the transgressions they have committed against You, and may You grant them compassion in the eyes of their captors to show them mercy.​
 
1 kings 8:46-50

NIV:
46When they sin against You—for there is no one who does not sin—and You become angry with them and deliver them to an enemy who takes them as captives to his own land, whether far or near, 47and when they come to their senses in the land to which they were taken, and they repent and plead with You in the land of their captors, saying, ‘We have sinned and done wrong; we have acted wickedly,’ 48and when they return to You with all their heart and soul in the land of the enemies who took them captive, and when they pray to You in the direction of the land that You gave to their fathers, the city You have chosen, and the house I have built for Your Name, 49then may You hear from heaven, Your dwelling place, their prayer and petition, and may You uphold their cause. 50May You forgive Your people who have sinned against You and all the transgressions they have committed against You, and may You grant them compassion in the eyes of their captors to show them mercy.​
There is still an atoning sacrifice that goes with repentance and confession. Always been that way.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I think that’s your scripture interpretation, quoting the OT Scripture and the NT revealing of that Scripture is not eisegetical gymnastics. How is that my own interpretation? It’s Scripture interpreting Scripture.
Scripture doesn’t interpret itself. It is eisegesis, because you’re reading into it stuff that’s not there.
 
Scripture doesn’t interpret itself. It is eisegesis, because you’re reading into it stuff that’s not there.
Eisegesis is when the Bible says that there salvation in no other name but Jesus and you say there are many ways.
And yes Scripture surely does interpret Scripture. Seems your method of interpretation is allegorical and devotional methods.
 
1 kings 8:46-50

NIV:
46When they sin against You—for there is no one who does not sin—and You become angry with them and deliver them to an enemy who takes them as captives to his own land, whether far or near, 47and when they come to their senses in the land to which they were taken, and they repent and plead with You in the land of their captors, saying, ‘We have sinned and done wrong; we have acted wickedly,’ 48and when they return to You with all their heart and soul in the land of the enemies who took them captive, and when they pray to You in the direction of the land that You gave to their fathers, the city You have chosen, and the house I have built for Your Name, 49then may You hear from heaven, Your dwelling place, their prayer and petition, and may You uphold their cause. 50May You forgive Your people who have sinned against You and all the transgressions they have committed against You, and may You grant them compassion in the eyes of their captors to show them mercy.​
And read the whole chapter
Also would encourage you to read Acts 10 Cornelius and his household. According to your view why would he need salvation through Jesus if he was already considered an upright and God fearing man? But he did need salvation.
 
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sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Eisegesis is when the Bible says that there salvation in no other name but Jesus and you say there are many ways.
And yes Scripture surely does interpret Scripture. Seems your method of interpretation is allegorical and devotional methods.
Eisegesis is when the Bible says one thing in one passage and you apply that same meaning to all other passages, ignoring the fact that texts are exegeted on their own merits. Seems your understanding is deficient.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
There is still an atoning sacrifice that goes with repentance and confession. Always been that way.
No, there is an accomodation for circumstances which prevent the sacrifice. That's what is described in 1 Kings 8:46-50.
And read the whole chapter
Yes, I just read it. Nowhere does King Solomon say that sacrifices are required for forgiveness. To the contrary, you can add verses 33-45 as further examples where God hears the prayers of the Jewish people and forgives them if they repent. No sacrifice is needed.
Also would encourage you to read Acts 10 Cornelius and his household. According to your view why would he need salvation through Jesus if he was already considered an upright and God fearing man? But he did need salvation.
I haven't read that part. I don't know the NT very well. I would guess that the author needs there to be only one way to approach God. However scripture says otherwise:

Deuteronomy 10:12
Deuteronomy 11:22
Joshua 22:5
1 Kings 8:58
Psalms 145:17

These verses all demonstrate that there are multiple ways to walk with God. Not a single path to salvation.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Seems you just want to blame God instead of people.

You do grasp that the notion a deity exists with limitless knowledge to create a message, and limitless power to communicate it, would mean that any flaw in that message is a logical contradiction? Ever heard of the law of noncontradiction?

What you're asserting, over and over and over again, is that evolved mammals are more culpable for not agreeing on what this hypothetical deity is communicating, than an infallible deity, and you don't seem able to see, let alone understand, the irony.
 
These verses all demonstrate that there are multiple ways to walk with God. Not a single path to salvation.
A person cannot walk with God in a relationship apart from making a covenant through Jesus Christ now and before that it was through the Mosaic Covenant. After a person has made a
Covenant there is a relationship. In Kings the dedication of the temple, sacrifices were made and for the annual Feasts atonement for sin presented to God for the people every year behind the veil in the Most Holy place. This wasn’t optional. This was a picture of the promise of Jesus Christ coming to make the once and for all sacrifice for sin and not only that but cleanse our conscience as Hebrews describes.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
One of the biggest problems that I can see with Christians that believe the "Once saved always saved" heresy is that far too many of them believe that they only have to apologize to God. They almost never atone for their sins. Atonement is a very useful idea. It allows a wronged party and the one in the wrong to proceed as if the event never happened. It makes it much more likely that a person will be forgiven by those that he wronged.

I agree, and have to ask, am I alone in finding the Christian notion of vicarious redemption, especially through the suffering and death of another, morally repugnant, and utterly indefensible?

I alone am morally culpable for my actions, the choices I have made, the good and the bad, are mine alone, and they cannot be wished away, nor can they be expunged by superstition, I must own them, or they will surely own me.

This is a deeply worrying notion:
without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

In any context!
 
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