There is no evidence for God, so why do you believe?

[sojourner]

A person cannot walk with God in a relationship apart from making a covenant through Jesus Christ now and before that it was through the Mosaic Covenant. After a person has made a
Covenant there is a relationship. In Kings the dedication of the temple, sacrifices were made and for the annual Feasts atonement for sin presented to God for the people every year behind the veil in the Most Holy place. This wasn’t optional. This was a picture of the promise of Jesus Christ coming to make the once and for all sacrifice for sin and not only that but cleanse our conscience as Hebrews describes.

Wrong. We don’t “make” the covenants. God establishes covenants with us. God initiates. We respond. And, for the Jews, there is no “before/after” where Jesus is concerned. We have 0 authority to declare that “God has abandoned them” — that’s religious appropriation.

 

[dybmh]

A person cannot walk with God in a relationship apart from making a covenant through Jesus Christ now and before that it was through the Mosaic Covenant. After a person has made a
Covenant there is a relationship. In Kings the dedication of the temple, sacrifices were made and for the annual Feasts atonement for sin presented to God for the people every year behind the veil in the Most Holy place. This wasn’t optional. This was a picture of the promise of Jesus Christ coming to make the once and for all sacrifice for sin and not only that but cleanse our conscience as Hebrews describes.

I understand what you're saying, but I have scripture which points me in another direction. Follow the laws, maintain the mosaic covenant. Walk in God's ways. Repent and return to God when I fail. No Jesus is needed for me.

 

[sojourner]

I agree, and have to ask, am I alone in finding the Christian notion of vicarious redemption, especially through the suffering and death of another, morally repugnant, and utterly indefensible?

I alone am morally culpable for my actions, the choices I have made, the good and the bad, are mine alone, and they cannot be wished away, nor can they be expunged by superstition, I must own them, or they will surely own me.

This is a deeply worrying notion:


In any context!

Substitutionary atonement is repugnant. And it’s not the only valid soteriology.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I agree, and have to ask, am I alone in finding the Christian notion of vicarious redemption, especially through the suffering and death of another, morally repugnant, and utterly indefensible?

I alone am morally culpable for my actions, the choices I have made, the good and the bad, are mine alone, and they cannot be wished away, nor can they be expunged by superstition, I must own them, or they will surely own me.

This is a deeply worrying notion:


In any context!

That concept was part of what convinced me that Christianity was wrong. It is one of the crazy self contradictions of Christianity, but those that have swallowed that nonsense can't see it because they think that it benefits them.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I understand what you're saying, but I have scripture which points me in another direction. Follow the laws, maintain the mosaic covenant. Walk in God's ways. Repent and return to God when I fail. No Jesus is needed for me.

Your beliefs should be respected, and you shouldn't have to deal with someone trying to shove Christianity down your throat.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Eisegesis is when the Bible says one thing in one passage and you apply that same meaning to all other passages, ignoring the fact that texts are exegeted on their own merits. Seems your understanding is deficient.

Eisegesis is handy because by cherry picking verses one can justify almost any biblical belief. You will find that eisegesis is praised by those that are excessively literalistic in their interpretations.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Wrong. We don’t “make” the covenants. God establishes covenants with us. God initiates. We respond. And, for the Jews, there is no “before/after” where Jesus is concerned. We have 0 authority to declare that “God has abandoned them” — that’s religious appropriation.

Well that’s not what Psalm 50 says so yes God initiates and we respond by making a Covenant with God by sacrifice.
“The Mighty One, God, the Lord, speaks; he summons the earth from the rising of the sun to its setting. From Zion, the perfection of beauty, God appears in radiance. Our God is coming; he will not be silent! Devouring fire precedes him, and a storm rages around him. On high, he summons heaven and earth in order to judge his people: “Gather my faithful ones to me, those who made a covenant with me by sacrifice.” The heavens proclaim his righteousness, for God is the Judge.Selah “Listen, my people, and I will speak; I will testify against you, Israel. I am God, your God. I do not rebuke you for your sacrifices or for your burnt offerings, which are continually before me. I will not take a bull from your household or male goats from your pens, for every animal of the forest is mine, the cattle on a thousand hills. I know every bird of the mountains, and the creatures of the field are mine. If I were hungry, I would not tell you, for the world and everything in it is mine. Do I eat the flesh of bulls or drink the blood of goats? Offer a thanksgiving sacrifice to God, and pay your vows to the Most High. Call on me in a day of trouble; I will rescue you, and you will honor me.” But God says to the wicked: “What right do you have to recite my statutes and to take my covenant on your lips? You hate instruction and fling my words behind you. When you see a thief, you make friends with him, and you associate with adulterers. You unleash your mouth for evil and harness your tongue for deceit. You sit, maligning your brother, slandering your mother’s son. You have done these things, and I kept silent; you thought I was just like you. But I will rebuke you and lay out the case before you. “Understand this, you who forget God, or I will tear you apart, and there will be no one to rescue you. Whoever offers a thanksgiving sacrifice honors me, and whoever orders his conduct, I will show him the salvation of God.””
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭50:1-23‬ ‭

 

[ElishaElijah]

Your beliefs should be respected, and you shouldn't have to deal with someone trying to shove Christianity down your throat.

I really hope @dybmh doesn’t feel the same way as you because I quite enjoyed his perspective, the way he communicated his views even if he saw things different. Quite refreshing.

 

[sojourner]

Well that’s not what Psalm 50 says so yes God initiates and we respond by making a Covenant with God by sacrifice.
“The Mighty One, God, the Lord, speaks; he summons the earth from the rising of the sun to its setting. From Zion, the perfection of beauty, God appears in radiance. Our God is coming; he will not be silent! Devouring fire precedes him, and a storm rages around him. On high, he summons heaven and earth in order to judge his people: “Gather my faithful ones to me, those who made a covenant with me by sacrifice.” The heavens proclaim his righteousness, for God is the Judge.Selah “Listen, my people, and I will speak; I will testify against you, Israel. I am God, your God. I do not rebuke you for your sacrifices or for your burnt offerings, which are continually before me. I will not take a bull from your household or male goats from your pens, for every animal of the forest is mine, the cattle on a thousand hills. I know every bird of the mountains, and the creatures of the field are mine. If I were hungry, I would not tell you, for the world and everything in it is mine. Do I eat the flesh of bulls or drink the blood of goats? Offer a thanksgiving sacrifice to God, and pay your vows to the Most High. Call on me in a day of trouble; I will rescue you, and you will honor me.” But God says to the wicked: “What right do you have to recite my statutes and to take my covenant on your lips? You hate instruction and fling my words behind you. When you see a thief, you make friends with him, and you associate with adulterers. You unleash your mouth for evil and harness your tongue for deceit. You sit, maligning your brother, slandering your mother’s son. You have done these things, and I kept silent; you thought I was just like you. But I will rebuke you and lay out the case before you. “Understand this, you who forget God, or I will tear you apart, and there will be no one to rescue you. Whoever offers a thanksgiving sacrifice honors me, and whoever orders his conduct, I will show him the salvation of God.””
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭50:1-23‬ ‭

1) It’s not “Psalms 50…” It’s Psalm 50
2) But who established the covenant to begin with? God. This is the kind of nonsense you get with eisegesis.

 

[Subduction Zone]

1) It’s not “Psalms 50…” It’s Psalm 50
2) But who established the covenant to begin with? God. This is the kind of nonsense you get with eisegesis.

I don't know . . . . that one is a pretty long one. It might count as two

 

[dybmh]

It’s not “Psalms 50…” It’s Psalm 50

Just FYI, if it's listed as Psalms 50, the autolink feature on the forum picks up on it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Just FYI, if it's listed as Psalms 50, the autolink feature on the forum picks up on it.

That is because "Psalms" is short for "The Book of Psalms". Autobots are rather limited. It would be proper to say either "The Book of Psalms: 50" or "Psalm 50" the later is short for "the 50th Psalm in the Book of Psalms".

 

[rational experiences]

Reasoning.

Humans are the science theist storyteller first without science.

Exact human wisdom.

Which you cannot legally argue against. As all stories are told by just humans.

A human practicing science studied gases by conscious heavenly reviews. No science then.

A human studied earth mass products. No science then.

Stories about God the entity earth.

Now ask yourself human thinker why did you equate earth as it's own entity? Rock!

As a sun another type of God fixed had blasted converted earth. An evil God type. Is why.

Living. You are human. You are conscious. You tell all stories.

You think. A human. You say I'm not a God. Know all reasons.

So why would you theory about why you personally existed when you were existing?

Does not make sense.

Instead if you say I theoried changing earth by machines I lost my original mind.

First thinker.

And then said a lot of unnatural strange stories.

As I lived survived conversion of my own biology also.

Exact reason.

As to think rock exists with half alight heavens cold dark clear heavens. Four seasons. A never peaceful reactive heavens.

To think consciusly the human storyteller.

Now I researched human healing and spirituality on my own terms.

I didn't allow fear and indoctrination...intelligence and group bullying to Influence my choices.

I lived my experience human spirituality.

Now I saw my brother the inventor of human sciences as a theist.

He isn't honest. He's ego driven with a lot of human civilisation reasons involved.

Not honest behaviour.

I learnt about father. First man. Nothing like my brother today.

Father hadn't theoried science why I can tell this story.

He's in our human memories exact.

Father wasn't a God. But man's inferred God types our heavens and rock dusts had recorded his life.

Memory only about father in God types a record only. So it's of spirit unseen.

As coldest plus clearest water recorded his memory. Unseen. Never will he be seen.

If I say eternal is where we came from. It's not God. As O all gods in created history angels O of God went to hell.

O some of them blew up. So the spirit within was born in stars. And you can see their images in the stars where they were birthed. In hell.

Why God O earth a planet is inferred in human thesis to be highest terms most important to life existing.

Yet all gods highest origin terms exists as gods only term without human life being present.

Is exactly mind notified.

So it's proven a theist human thought about why earths heavens was given light.

So they could copy the reaction to earths mass.

A human theist.

Father's memory said returned fallen star burnt out brothers mind. He changed. He emerged into a nasty mind man group agreed behaviour.

Is the only truth to how he enslaved innocent spiritual humanity. Meek non violent who didn't believe in violent returned retorts.

Is real life history.

Why he said he believed advice as if an atom gave him the human wisdom as he owned it...totally false.

The star memory causes phenomena burning cooling records images taught him as a living human.

The knowledge of human only sciences.

Phenomena formed visionary records hot then cooled by ice and water taught him.

As biology mainly water used waters dust minerals to become an eternal being's human life form. We prove we don't belong in energy creation as we die.

 

[dybmh]

Well that’s not what Psalm 50 says so yes God initiates and we respond by making a Covenant with God by sacrifice.
“The Mighty One, God, the Lord, speaks; he summons the earth from the rising of the sun to its setting. From Zion, the perfection of beauty, God appears in radiance. Our God is coming; he will not be silent! Devouring fire precedes him, and a storm rages around him. On high, he summons heaven and earth in order to judge his people: “Gather my faithful ones to me, those who made a covenant with me by sacrifice.” The heavens proclaim his righteousness, for God is the Judge.Selah “Listen, my people, and I will speak; I will testify against you, Israel. I am God, your God. I do not rebuke you for your sacrifices or for your burnt offerings, which are continually before me. I will not take a bull from your household or male goats from your pens, for every animal of the forest is mine, the cattle on a thousand hills. I know every bird of the mountains, and the creatures of the field are mine. If I were hungry, I would not tell you, for the world and everything in it is mine. Do I eat the flesh of bulls or drink the blood of goats? Offer a thanksgiving sacrifice to God, and pay your vows to the Most High. Call on me in a day of trouble; I will rescue you, and you will honor me.” But God says to the wicked: “What right do you have to recite my statutes and to take my covenant on your lips? You hate instruction and fling my words behind you. When you see a thief, you make friends with him, and you associate with adulterers. You unleash your mouth for evil and harness your tongue for deceit. You sit, maligning your brother, slandering your mother’s son. You have done these things, and I kept silent; you thought I was just like you. But I will rebuke you and lay out the case before you. “Understand this, you who forget God, or I will tear you apart, and there will be no one to rescue you. Whoever offers a thanksgiving sacrifice honors me, and whoever orders his conduct, I will show him the salvation of God.””
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭50:1-23‬ ‭

Yes, this is one way to acheive atonement. But there's also fasting, charity, and repentance..

 

[ElishaElijah]

Yes, this is one way to acheive atonement. But there's also fasting, charity, and repentance..

God instituted the Feasts and I see Jesus Christ fulfilling those
Feast of Unleavened Bread - Jesus is sinless
First Fruits - Jesus First fruits from the dead
Passover - Jesus the Passover Lamb , His blood, Angel of death passes over, lamb of God takes away the sin of the World. No blood on your door, angel of death doesn’t pass over your home.
Pentecost- Birth of the Church, Holy Spirit poured out, big harvest.
Trumpets - Return of Christ at the last trumpet of God
Tabernacles - putting off our earthly tent putting on eternal glorified bodies, tabernacle with God in Heaven and permanent.
Atonement- Jesus provided eternal sacrifice Himself once and for all and at the Judgement a settling of accounts, rewards and punishment. I’m glad He paid for all my sins by His Blood at the Cross.
This is what I see in Scripture.
In Revelation I don’t see where confession, charity will do it to atone for your sin, a price had to be paid.

 

[Muffled]

Some people believe the earth is flat, so what's your point?

I believe the people who say the world is flat are not reliable sources.

 

[Muffled]

That is the very definition of an argumentum ad populum fallacy.

"an argumentum ad populum is a fallacious argument which is based on claiming a truth or affirming something is good because the majority thinks so."

It doesn't become less irrational, just because you fail to understand it, or because you deny it. It is and remains a logical fallacy.

I believe millions of people can be wrong about some things but it is inconceivable that they can be wrong about their own experiences.

 

[Sheldon]

I believe God is a reliable source and He supports the Bible.

Some people believe the earth is flat, so what's your point?

I believe the people who say the world is flat are not reliable sources.

Yes I saw that, I am pointing out that the bald assertion someone holds a belief is meaningless. Some people believe the world to be flat, do you imagine the "evidence" they think they have to support this is unreliable?

Now can you demonstrate anything beyond a bare assertion to support your claim the bible is reliable? After all it has produced 45k varyingly different sects and denominations globally, that doesn't sound reliable to me, the claim a deity exists and supports the bible is a pretty obvious circular reasoning fallacy as well. I've linked an explanation of this fallacy in informal logic for you.

 

[Muffled]

The problem is that is subject to interpretation. Your interpretation of that will be different from other sects of Christianity.

I believe there is only one correct interpretation. I don't believe I evaluate science by the nonsense that someone without scientific training would utter. Those who study the Bible know it best and the Holy Spirit also helps.

 

[Sheldon]

Sheldon said: ↑
That is the very definition of an argumentum ad populum fallacy.

"an argumentum ad populum is a fallacious argument which is based on claiming a truth or affirming something is good because the majority thinks so."

It doesn't become less irrational, just because you fail to understand it, or because you deny it. It is and remains a logical fallacy.

I believe millions of people can be wrong about some things but it is inconceivable that they can be wrong about their own experiences.

Ironically you have responded with an argument from incredulity fallacy, I have hyperlinked an explanation of it for you. To be clear, when an argument uses a known logical fallacy it is by definition irrational, you have used two in succession here. How do you imagine anyone who understands these fallacies must therefore view your claim?

It's irrational in case I wasn't being clear, they'd view your claim as irrational, they'd have no other choice, since it is a basic principle of logic that nothing that contains or uses a known logical fallacy can be asserted as rational.