There is no evidence for God, so why do you believe?

[an anarchist]

God bless you!

He could go ahead and bugger off.

 

[Audie]

Do you believe in silence? Do you believe the silence exists? Of course you do, but you can't hear it, see it or feel it. But there is silence. Undeniably. What can make you even think that God is working in possible ways, then he wouldn't even be God. He is the greatest spirit and creator of everything seen of unseen, but he can't be limited by human understandings because He Is, He Was and Always Will Be in everything and in us, so to understand God you need to be spiritualy open and believe. First of all start with the morals or reconnaissance of good and evil, where do these moral terms come from through all history of humankind. And there were people doing wrong, and evil, because they didn't develop the spirit or the voice of God and his love whose in all of us. More so, they were so weak to believe that the evil made them their tools for doing bad. But for e.g. when you see these evils and unfairness being done, you're disgusted by it, isn't it? Who planted that in every human from beginnings. Moreover, evil come from absence of good, which is absence of believing and absence of strenght to resist the "harder" way, we humans are easily deceived, being given the free will, our hearts are so corrupted that we freely let ourselves been manipulated in willing to have everything in "easier" way. It's a deceive. That's why we need God. To guide us.
Also God revealed himself through His Son, in human flesh and blood, Lord Jesus Christ, and there are evidences of his existence, eyewitnesses who saw him, stood by him and put it all down on paper so people could have "a proof". They crucified Him because they didn't believe. And they are still too weak because walking with God is "hard" , it requires carrying your "cross" like His Son did, and that's because evil is always lurking and you must fight and resist it, and fighting is never easy. These times especially are overwhelmed by the amount of evilness, so please don't search for the proof, for God's sake you are the proof, please believe and open your heart. Start reading Bible. God bless you!

"Believe in" silence? Did your preacher come up with
that one?

Maybe you mean faith. Quote the Bible definition for us.
Note how it's nothing like knowing what silence is.
Belief and faith have zero to do with knowledge of silence

No " belief" needed for things readily
observed by all, and that consistently
can be detected and measured by scientific
instruments. Creating conditions for, measuring degrees of, understanding the physical nature of the precise definition of, it's all easy as frog pie.

" god" though?

Now there's a word for something that
fits every known qualification for the nonexistent.

Like Batboy.

Only far less probable.

 

[joelr]

I believe describing anything with evolution is fantasy.

So the hominid fossil record is fantasy? One of our recent ancestors, H. neanderthalensis DNA shows up in a small percentage of people from Europe as well.

The Hominid Family Tree A - Orrorin tugenensis (6 mya) B - Ardipithecus ramidus (4.4 mya) C - Australopithecus anamensis (4.2 to 3.9 mya) D - Australopithecus afarensis (3.6 to 2.9 mya) E - Kenyanthropus platyops (3.5 to 3.3 mya) F - Australopithecus africanus (3 to 2 mya) G - Australopithecus aethiopicus (2.7 to 2.3 mya) H - Australopithecus garhi (2.5 mya) I - Australopithecus boisei (2.3 to 1.4 mya) J - Homo habilis (2.3 to 1.6 mya) K - Homo erectus (1.8 to 0.3 mya) L - Australopithecus robustus (1.8 to 1.5 mya) M - Homo heidelbergensis (600 to 100 tya) N - Homo neanderthalensis (250 to 30 tya) O - Homo sapiens (100 tya to present) mya = millions of years ago tya = thousands of years ago

 

[Valentina Kutleša]

"Believe in" silence? Did your preacher come up with
that one?

Maybe you mean faith. Quote the Bible definition for us.
Note how it's nothing like knowing what silence is.
Belief and faith have zero to do with knowledge of silence

No " belief" needed for things readily
observed by all, and that consistently
can be detected and measured by scientific
instruments. Creating conditions for, measuring degrees of, understanding the physical nature of the precise definition of, it's all easy as frog pie.

" god" though?

Now there's a word for something that
fits every known qualification for the nonexistent.

Like Batboy.

Only far less probable.

You are right, I failed the point by that comparison. My bad, although attention was different but obviously I was not thinking it through enough and I'm really sorry if that disturbed you or anyone else And excuse my English it's not so good.
Sooo I don't listen to any preachers matter of fact most of them are really just some institutional puppets, the rare ones are hard to find todays.. Spiritually evolved, wise people don't have to be a part of some institution don't you think.. Anyways, finding one's own faith or spiritual path or whatever you like to call it is pretty much (I'm not saying entirelyyy) on them alone through life and what they learn or not, and what they really want to choose in life..

 

[Valentina Kutleša]

Bruuuh.

I don't wanna be rude, but...

This made my morning! LOL

Listen, I have read through the Bible. I believed the Bible for my first 20 years of life and was his soldier and everything. Even did a semester of Bible college. Sheesh I was a Sunday school teacher for like four years when I was a teenager. "Start reading the Bible" lady LOL. I probs know more than you. I know I know more than you because Christians are not taught the scholarly view of the Bible and it's hypothesized origins.

I'm willing to wager you are parroting your church when you say "please don't search for proof". Like, the level of brainwashing that has happened to you is immense when you are at that level. Analyze the statement "please don't search for truth". Really think about what you said. Is that how you arrive at truth? Is that what you want to base your core beliefs on, utter blindness?

And where do you stand now, of course if it's okay for you to share? Sorry for my English, is not that good

 

[Valentina Kutleša]

There's also no evidence that a particular physical arrangement produces a living being that has identity, awareness, character qualities, will, etc. . If there were evidence then we could produce, and demonstrate the phenomena. It's all suggestion based on intuitions that a mechanism must exist.

Whether you believe in God, or physical materialism, poof it was created, or poof it emerged. No explanation has yet been demonstrated. No reasons forth coming as to why these phenomena occured in nature. It's all speculation.

Therefore it is logical, and rational to seek extra dimensional, non physical solutions to the problem. It's also rational to seek patterns in nature that give rise to life phenomena.

If life phenomena appear in nature, then it is logical to think that these phenomena may be eternal attributes of existence and may exist in else forms and/or else ways.

What does the word mechanism actually mean in terms of finding and explaining all life phenomena in purely physical terms? A purely physical explanation can never rule out a spiritual reality, and the debate between religion, philosophy, and science is in truth an endless one.

Life phenomena can be analyzed from introspection, and through consciousness humans are aware they exist. The phenomena appear to be abstract, unified, and highly organized according to function for usage when looking at it from a purely experiencial perspective.

So where's the exact connections between physics and life phenomena?

The whole nature in its existence is perfectly intelligent system for their own purpose, every tree, every flower, plant, every bee, fish and even rain, or the sun have their own purpose proven to be required in something. The simpliest example would be that without the sun life on earth wouldn't even be possible, or humans need oxygen from nature and oceans, and trees in nature absorb carbon dioxide, or the process of photosynthesis in plants, which are all really well known proven statements, and how do we explain the next thing, and that's of course, if those trees and plants and waters don't have brain to learn what to do, how come they got that mechanism in them to do all their "purposes" and "existence", more so animals have brains all each to their own needs for living or purposes again, and finally humans as the "superior" beings who need almost every thing from that perfectly designed planet, consciously or unconsciously (no need to discuss the differences in needs please) there are a lot of things of course which are more complex, or not even investigated yet fully no wonder cause there is so many things and aspects here that it's impossible for us to catch it all up, all that knowledge..we can't even figure out lots of historical things in times before yet having so much knowledge and technologies etc etc.. My point is, it's proven that nothing ever alive, seen or unseen, comes from unalive, meaning our land, nature, animals and everything alive, on this planet must have come from a living super intelligent source and a perfect designer. I mean, can you make a live water from nothing? It's H2O, we have "ingredients" but mix it together you ain't get the bloody water. How can't we make a living water, how can't we create water from nothing like actually making water. Now to mention, those energetic fields, and vibrations, influences of them, influences of planets and stars on water, quantum physics and atoms, seen or unseen but all proven in some ways of observation, and how can you tell me that's not exactly what God is? Just for the record, many of famous historical scientists who actually invented some s*it for eg. Nikola Tesla, Isaac Newton, Louis Pasteur, Werner Heisenberg, etc mentioned the source of understanding science, understanding functions of world and having knowledge in general in the end comes from who? Tesla even mentioned Bible.

 

[osgart]

The whole nature in its existence is perfectly intelligent system for their own purpose, every tree, every flower, plant, every bee, fish and even rain, or the sun have their own purpose proven to be required in something.

I wouldn't call it perfectly intelligent nor perfectly purposeful.

The simpliest example would be that without the sun life on earth wouldn't even be possible, or humans need oxygen from nature and oceans, and trees in nature absorb carbon dioxide, or the process of photosynthesis in plants, which are all really well known proven statements, and how do we explain the next thing, and that's of course, if those trees and plants and waters don't have brain to learn what to do, how come they got that mechanism in them to do all their "purposes" and "existence", more so animals have brains all each to their own needs for living or purposes again, and finally humans as the "superior" beings who need almost every thing from that perfectly designed planet, consciously or unconsciously (no need to discuss the differences in needs please) there are a lot of things of course which are more complex, or not even investigated yet fully no wonder cause there is so many things and aspects here that it's impossible for us to catch it all up, all that knowledge..we can't even figure out lots of historical things in times before yet having so much knowledge and technologies etc etc..

Life fits into niche's in ecosystems, it's far from perfect. There's the hunter and the prey, it's far from harmonious, and cooperative in all aspects.

My point is, it's proven that nothing ever alive, seen or unseen, comes from unalive, meaning our land, nature, animals and everything alive, on this planet must have come from a living super intelligent source and a perfect designer.

I have a strong intuition that life must come from other life, a super intellect even, but life adapts and learns, many, many species go extinct. It's far from perfect.

I mean, can you make a live water from nothing? It's H2O, we have "ingredients" but mix it together you ain't get the bloody water. How can't we make a living water, how can't we create water from nothing like actually making water.

Nothing comes from nothing. I don't consider life a mindless process. It's part of a program, it can fortunately come about from the right conditions that by no means are 100% likely.

Now to mention, those energetic fields, and vibrations, influences of them, influences of planets and stars on water, quantum physics and atoms, seen or unseen but all proven in some ways of observation, and how can you tell me that's not exactly what God is?

This is where things are not fully understood, and it confounds people because not everything existent is available to the rational mind. If God were quantum physics then you are pantheistic. I'm inclined to think that's not true.

Just for the record, many of famous historical scientists who actually invented some s*it for eg. Nikola Tesla, Isaac Newton, Louis Pasteur, Werner Heisenberg, etc mentioned the source of understanding science, understanding functions of world and having knowledge in general in the end comes from who? Tesla even mentioned Bible.

I don't deny that many of the most important scientists believed in either a God, or some sort of super intellect. Thinking the universe is comprehensible and intelligible gave birth to science. That started with convictions that agency was responsible for the universe. However the specialness of life on Earth has become less and less the more science learns.

As far as the Bible goes, I'm far from believing that it is literal history.

 

[Audie]

You are right, I failed the point by that comparison. My bad, although attention was different but obviously I was not thinking it through enough and I'm really sorry if that disturbed you or anyone else And excuse my English it's not so good.
Sooo I don't listen to any preachers matter of fact most of them are really just some institutional puppets, the rare ones are hard to find todays.. Spiritually evolved, wise people don't have to be a part of some institution don't you think.. Anyways, finding one's own faith or spiritual path or whatever you like to call it is pretty much (I'm not saying entirelyyy) on them alone through life and what they learn or not, and what they really want to choose in life..

Don't worry about it. I was just being tiresome.

 

[an anarchist]

And where do you stand now, of course if it's okay for you to share? Sorry for my English, is not that good

I'm going to give some context to where I stand now.

Religion is not beneficial for everyone.

Let's use the God of the Bible for example. If the God of the Bible is real, then that would mean that that particular religion is eternally good for everyone. But, if by chance, the God of the Bible is not real, then it is obvious to me that that particular religion may not be beneficial and even perhaps detrimental to different individuals.

My search for God drove me clinically insane. My undying zeal to pursue the true nature of reality led me directly to him. If there is a god, then I have seen him. I am a part of him and am a god. At least, I have the power of a god, the power to shape the entire world and trajectory of the human race. I could eradicate humanity to clear up the way for different species, such as the meteor hitting the dinosaurs cleared the way for us. Or I can save humanity, freeing all beings and mother Earth from the perpetual cycle of suffering. I am a god.

Well, if I choose to be religious at least. See what I mean when I say religion isn't good for anyone.

Religion is my most studied topic. I have invested more mental energy into the study of religion more than anything else. The established religion I was intimately familiar with, I found wanting as I searched for truth. I liked Hinduism. I might consider becoming a Buddhist in my present state as you don't have to be religious to be a Buddhist. Not as well studied on those belief systems though. But my point is if I am religious, I would start a religion/cult. Same thing. I find all these present religious systems wanting. I have seen god, so I would be a prophet, spreading the truth.

But I choose to not be religious. To be a prophet of God is no light task. To have the power of God is scary. I don't want the burden. So I chalk my experiences up to my insanity and try to be Atheist. Though I am agnostic instead.

I am placing my money on the idea of no god or afterlife. I'm thinking if that's the case, then I won't be negatively affected if I abandon humanity during my present mortal life.

But, if there is a god, then I don't know what will happen. I have abandoned my duty and taken away my belief from God. He is on my ignore list. I do my best to not even consider him. I know your new so don't know this probably, but I used to be extremely active on this site when I first joined. The only reason I'm posting again on this site is because my anti crazy medicine was delayed so I have become god again and am pondering religion.

Where I stand now... I wish to not even consider god. So I do my best to pretend that the concept of him doesn't even exist.

 

[Valentina Kutleša]

I wouldn't call it perfectly intelligent nor perfectly purposeful.

Life fits into niche's in ecosystems, it's far from perfect. There's the hunter and the prey, it's far from harmonious, and cooperative in all aspects.

I have a strong intuition that life must come from other life, a super intellect even, but life adapts and learns, many, many species go extinct. It's far from perfect.


Nothing comes from nothing. I don't consider life a mindless process. It's part of a program, it can fortunately come about from the right conditions that by no means are 100% likely.

This is where things are not fully understood, and it confounds people because not everything existent is available to the rational mind. If God were quantum physics then you are pantheistic. I'm inclined to think that's not true.

I don't deny that many of the most important scientists believed in either a God, or some sort of super intellect. Thinking the universe is comprehensible and intelligible gave birth to science. That started with convictions that agency was responsible for the universe. However the specialness of life on Earth has become less and less the more science learns.

As far as the Bible goes, I'm far from believing that it is literal history.

Yes it's far from perfect but when you look it as a whole it's a perfectly cyclical proces, that's my point, and I can't understand how come people not believe in God in that case. Can I mention that Bible predicted so many things, and 70percent of the prophets were already fulfilled by now, proven. It is clear by so far also, that the leaders, institutions and others manipulated with lots of books including the Bible,yes, they manipulate with knowledge, the question is why.. I think you may know the answer but as far as we can see by now, they can't stop what God will. That's my humble opinion after a lots of researching, and primarily I was not religious.

 

[Valentina Kutleša]

Then Allah can be real, so can Brahman and any version of God you want. Millions of Mormons are open spiritually, they open their heart, honestly and pray:
And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.


and God tells then that the Mormon Bible is the only true word of God.

You are saying to believe in god you just need to believe. Circular logic and is used to believe every version is the one true version. Clearly a fallacy.





Morals come from evolution. The Nazis were Christian, the hundreds of Priests who molested children were religious. The Crusades were religious.
There are good people who are religious and secular or in different Eastern religions. So that doesn't hold as true at all.






It's an evolutionary trait, we don't like seeing other people be harmed. Nature planted it. Not a deity. Please read the OT. "kill every living thing in all 6 cities or else they will corrupt you with (their religion)"
Plague that kills 70,000, for census
world is flooded, killing innocent babies




Millions of secular people do plenty of good. Europe is largely secular. Humans are for sure easily decieved.






A stupid apologetic. Most secular folks just want to work, survive, be good people, learn their craft, give back to the world....don't believe everything you hear.

Free-will from God was originally in the Persian religion and the ideas fell into Judaism and Christianity during the 2nd Temple Period.

Freewill, choice


the basic Zoroastrian doctrine of the existence of free-will, and the power of each individual to shape his own destiny through the exercise of choice.


There is no evidence. The Gospels all copy Mark which is written like mythology in several ways, non-eyewitness and anonymous, names added early 2nd century. The stories source Romulus, Greek religions, the Epistles, Homer and the OT. Jesus is an upgraded Elijah and Moses.






Yes, in the story, which is a myth.




In the story. In real life if he was crucified (a Jewish Rabbi named Jesus) it would be because he broke a law.





Actually it is. You just work, shop, train, read, be a good person, learn, study, have friends, be good to people. It's not hard.



Right and Mormons say the same, Muslims say the same, Hindu say the same. Who needs proof, join a religion.
Opening your heart has nothing to do with what is actually true.

How about philosophy? Greek philosophy and literature, eastern and western philosophy? What about the Quran? They believe in God? You just call out for belief without proof but say the Bible? How about belief without proof for the Mormon Bible, Quran, Hindu scripture, Sikh scripture? Or is it just believe without proof what you believe?

You should not believe anything without reasonable evidence. This is how people come to believe anything and everything.
You can be a good person and hold a rational, skeptical methodology to truth and epistemology.

Christians say you are the proof of Christianity, Muslims say you are the proof of Islam and so on. That is a flawed methodology.




see Mormons do it as well:

"
And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things."

The Book of Moroni​

CHAPTER 10​

Moroni is the angel who gave revelations to J. Smith. He had to use a magic translator of course.

I'm going to give some context to where I stand now.

Religion is not beneficial for everyone.

Let's use the God of the Bible for example. If the God of the Bible is real, then that would mean that that particular religion is eternally good for everyone. But, if by chance, the God of the Bible is not real, then it is obvious to me that that particular religion may not be beneficial and even perhaps detrimental to different individuals.

My search for God drove me clinically insane. My undying zeal to pursue the true nature of reality led me directly to him. If there is a god, then I have seen him. I am a part of him and am a god. At least, I have the power of a god, the power to shape the entire world and trajectory of the human race. I could eradicate humanity to clear up the way for different species, such as the meteor hitting the dinosaurs cleared the way for us. Or I can save humanity, freeing all beings and mother Earth from the perpetual cycle of suffering. I am a god.

Well, if I choose to be religious at least. See what I mean when I say religion isn't good for anyone.

Religion is my most studied topic. I have invested more mental energy into the study of religion more than anything else. The established religion I was intimately familiar with, I found wanting as I searched for truth. I liked Hinduism. I might consider becoming a Buddhist in my present state as you don't have to be religious to be a Buddhist. Not as well studied on those belief systems though. But my point is if I am religious, I would start a religion/cult. Same thing. I find all these present religious systems wanting. I have seen god, so I would be a prophet, spreading the truth.

But I choose to not be religious. To be a prophet of God is no light task. To have the power of God is scary. I don't want the burden. So I chalk my experiences up to my insanity and try to be Atheist. Though I am agnostic instead.

I am placing my money on the idea of no god or afterlife. I'm thinking if that's the case, then I won't be negatively affected if I abandon humanity during my present mortal life.

But, if there is a god, then I don't know what will happen. I have abandoned my duty and taken away my belief from God. He is on my ignore list. I do my best to not even consider him. I know your new so don't know this probably, but I used to be extremely active on this site when I first joined. The only reason I'm posting again on this site is because my anti crazy medicine was delayed so I have become god again and am pondering religion.

Where I stand now... I wish to not even consider god. So I do my best to pretend that the concept of him doesn't even exist.

I understand, I was in fact also not religious at all. First an atheist I didn't believe in anything, then I was unto Zoroastrianism, then Buddhism, then I also have doubts about questiong am I myself also a God and if so, how can't I do unimaginable things etc. So following al these researchers and being totally confused in the end, I decided that religions are "an opium of the masses" as Marx claimed. That made sense, but in the end, to be short, I started reading Bible like I never knew anything about it. Even tho I was against those holly books because that can be written by anyone and manipulated by anything etc. To be short, now I am a so to say believer, but in terms of following Jesus's path, I don't think it's necessary to claim myself Christian, words are just more and more confusing people and are limiting the true intent, and I don't have to say I am a Christian because that's an institutional term and I don't want to limit myself with that. So I read Bible by myself, I search, I pray by myself, and I'm doing the best I can in my life to follow what's in the book, not in a holy way nonono I'm far from that we are all just humans and sinners but through praying or talking to God (Holly Trinity) in most natural spiritual way ,just in a human way, and I find everything I need. Sooner or later. It finally made sense you know I mean. I know some people can do those goods also without the Bible, but I just found that path of let's say Christianity the only that really helped me (although in the beginning as I said I was not religious and I was even claiming Christianity is a sect). Does it make a sense, or what is your opinion on that?

 

[an anarchist]

I just found that path of let's say Christianity the only that really helped me... Does it make a sense, or what is your opinion on that?

I think this is the most important part.

I see religion as one of humanities great evolutionary achievements.

Humans are conscious and painfully aware of the horror of life. We learn early on that we will suffer until we die.

But religion gives an individual power over suffering and death.

Religion is good for some, bad for others.

If it's good for you, then I'm happy for you.

But don't think you'll be able to convince anyone of the Bible on this site. The arguments you present have been presented much more thoroughly by others here, and the atheists don't tend to be convinced by those arguments.

But that's ok. Religion doesn't work for those atheists in the way it works for you.

Live and let live.

Welcome to the forums! :^]

 

[Phin]

I’ve been reading through a couple of threads, and I see that it is said that there is no evidence for a god, it’s an unfalsifiable idea. We all agree on this? If you don’t, care to explain the evidence there is for god?
I’m in agreement. I used to believe my personal experiences to be subjective evidence for god, but I know now that’s not the case. I am not a theist anymore because I recognize I was a Christian thanks almost completely to my environment. That’s why I believed. I was brought up in it. Wasn’t because of any proof or anything,
So, theists, why do you believe? Is it mainly because of your environment and geographical location? There is no proof for god (right?), so what logically keeps you believing? Or is logic not supposed to be a factor when it comes to faith? Is it too jarring, the idea of leaving the comfort that religion and belief in a god brings?
I am curious about personal evaluations on why you believe. It can’t be because of logic, as there is no proof of god, right?

I believe the way the bible is written proves the existence of God. I don't believe it's humanly possible to write an entire book that serves only as a carrier for the real message that isn't written in the text of the book itself.

 

[an anarchist]

I believe the way the bible is written proves the existence of God. I don't believe it's humanly possible to write an entire book that serves only as a carrier for the real message that isn't written in text of the book itself.

I am of the opinion that the Bible is an excellent piece of literature. I do thoroughly enjoy reading many parts of the Bible.

But I am confused by what you mean by your post. It is humanly possible to write an entire book. More complex books than the Bible have been written by a single individual. The Bible is a compilation and a colligation of multiple authors works.

What is this "real message"? Something you came up with? And what do you even mean that the message isn't even in the text?

 

[Sargonski]

I believe the way the bible is written proves the existence of God. I don't believe it's humanly possible to write an entire book that serves only as a carrier for the real message that isn't written in text of the book itself.

Ouch .. I feel pain .. suffering upon hearing such strange things.

"The entire book that serves only as a carrier for the real message" -- is what I am having trouble wraping head around.

Um -- I don't think even the modern bible claims that .. and for sure not the Jewish Bible .. or the Jews of their Bible .. we have words of advice from Solomon .. Proverbs and Ecclesiastes .. songs (psalms) written by King David and others .. songs that are human breathed and the authors named .. not God Breathed.

That is a lesser issue however ... "the Real Message" being the bigger issue. What Message is that Brother Phin ?

Question- What is "The Real Message from the God of the Jewish Bible" - on the question of collective punishment/ Rule of Law principle - one person not to be punished for the sins of another. Specifically .. Should we kill children for the sins of their parents - relatives - townsfolk? ... or is the "Real Message" that we should not kill children for the sins of the Parents ?

What is the Real Message of the Jewish Bible on this issue ?

 

[Phin]

I am of the opinion that the Bible is an excellent piece of literature. I do thoroughly enjoy reading many parts of the Bible.

But I am confused by what you mean by your post. It is humanly possible to write an entire book. More complex books than the Bible have been written by a single individual. The Bible is a compilation and a colligation of multiple authors works.

What is this "real message"? Something you came up with? And what do you even mean that the message isn't even in the text?

I didn't come up with it, I discovered it in my studies. The bible affirms this when Jesus, debating the scriptures with the Pharisees said:

John 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word

There was only one set of words coming out of Jesus' mouth. "My speech" was the words coming out of Jesus' mouth. "My word" is the real meaning hidden in "my speech".

Hopefully that makes sense.

 

[an anarchist]

The bible affirms this

The Bible has no actual authority though.

 

[Phin]

Ouch .. I feel pain .. suffering upon hearing such strange things.

"The entire book that serves only as a carrier for the real message" -- is what I am having trouble wraping head around.

Um -- I don't think even the modern bible claims that .. and for sure not the Jewish Bible .. or the Jews of their Bible .. we have words of advice from Solomon .. Proverbs and Ecclesiastes .. songs (psalms) written by King David and others .. songs that are human breathed and the authors named .. not God Breathed.

That is a lesser issue however ... "the Real Message" being the bigger issue. What Message is that Brother Phin ?

Question- What is "The Real Message from the God of the Jewish Bible" - on the question of collective punishment/ Rule of Law principle - one person not to be punished for the sins of another. Specifically .. Should we kill children for the sins of their parents - relatives - townsfolk? ... or is the "Real Message" that we should not kill children for the sins of the Parents ?

What is the Real Message of the Jewish Bible on this issue ?

The only way I can explain it is to give examples. This example is really clear and is a good example of what I'm saying.

John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you

Most people understand this is not the literal flesh and blood of Jesus. My point is that this isn't one of just a few times this is done, this is almost always the case.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I didn't come up with it, I discovered it in my studies. The bible affirms this when Jesus, debating the scriptures with the Pharisees said:

John 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word

There was only one set of words coming out of Jesus' mouth. "My speech" was the words coming out of Jesus' mouth. "My word" is the real meaning hidden in "my speech".

Hopefully that makes sense.

That is not an "affirmation". That is a claim of the Bible. How do you know that the Bible is a reliable record?

 

[Phin]

The Bible has no actual authority though.

Whether you believe the bible or not doesn't matter. That was a passage that affirms the word of God is hidden within the words of God.