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There is no evidence for God, so why do you believe?

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I needed evidence to show me there is a God. You may not agree that it is evidence, but for me it is certainly evidence. To me it is like something very, very precious, so I do not share the evidence with everyone, but as far as I am concerned there is no doubt that it is evidence that God exists.
We're not in disagreement except that as with @Kathryn, what you call evidence justifying a god belief isn't that for me. You and I have access to the same evidence that believers say justifies their god belief, but don't use the same rules to connect that evidence to our conclusions about what it signifies, and so come to different conclusions.

It's my belief that the believer uses motivated reasoning:

"Motivated reasoning is a cognitive and social response, in which individuals, consciously or unconsciously, allow emotion-loaded motivational biases to affect how new information is perceived."

It basically says that without dispassionate, rigorous reasoning, which takes practice to execute, one will see what he hopes to see or already has decided is true. This is why the ID people kept seeing irreducible complexity that others not using that kind of motivated reasoning didn't see but instead refuted.

It's also why in clinical trials, neither the patient nor the clinician knows which patient got the experimental treatment (treatment group) and which got the placebo (control group) - a process called double blinding. People want these things to work, and if they know they received the treatment, they tend to exaggerate the subjective benefit to please the clinician, or less often, the clinician exaggerates the non-measurable observables like balance.

From The Boxer. This doesn't have to be true in every case. We can train ourselves to do better:

"Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest"
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Kin not in disagreement except that as with @Kathryn, what you call evidence justifying a god belief isn't that for me. You and I have access to the same evidence that believers say justifies their god belief, but don't use the same rules to connect that evidence to our conclusions about what it signifies, and so come to different conclusions.

It's my belief that the believer uses motivated reasoning:

"Motivated reasoning is a cognitive and social response, in which individuals, consciously or unconsciously, allow emotion-loaded motivational biases to affect how new information is perceived."

It basically says that without dispassionate, rigorous reasoning, which takes practice to execute, one will see what he hopes to see or already has decided is true. This is why the ID people kept seeing irreducible complexity that others not using that kind of motivated reasoning didn't see but instead refuted.

It's also why in clinical trials, neither the patient nor the clinician knows which patient got the experimental treatment (treatment group) and which got the placebo (control group) - a process called double blinding. People want these things to work, and if they know they received the treatment, they tend to exaggerate the subjective benefit to please the clinician, or less often, the clinician exaggerates the non-measurable observables like balance.

From The Boxer. This doesn't have to be true in every case. We can train ourselves to do better:

"Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest"
Kinda makes me think of Moses & Pharaoh. Moses performed miracles in front of Pharaoh, impressed him for a while, then Pharaoh took it back -- so I agree that evidence is not always the existing proof that makes people change their minds. The evidence brought by Pharaoh's magicians was not from God, but Moses and Aaron had to cope with it. Hope that helps explain my position now.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
Kinda makes me think of Moses & Pharaoh. Moses performed miracles in front of Pharaoh, impressed him for a while, then Pharaoh took it back -- so I agree that evidence is not always the existing proof that makes people change their minds. The evidence brought by Pharaoh's magicians was not from God, but Moses and Aaron had to cope with it. Hope that helps explain my position now.
I hadn't seen you in a few days and wondered where you were. Was hoping everything was OK. Glad to see that seems to be the case.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I hadn't seen you in a few days and wondered where you were. Was hoping everything was OK. Glad to see that seems to be the case.
Well, well, well -- that's nice of you. Thank you for your good wishes. I hope you're ok, too. My energy comes and goes...as the saying of some goes, I never thought getting old would be so hard. But it's teaching me compassion for older ones and sick ones. Jesus certainly exemplified that when he was on the earth. Thank you, Dan. :)
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I hadn't seen you in a few days and wondered where you were. Was hoping everything was OK. Glad to see that seems to be the case.
Repeating a post I made to someone else -- but applicable...
"It's amazing to me how awful some crimes are. Even before I believed in God I thought it was beyond reason why anyone would kill others and then kill themselves. I studied psychology and sociology to an extent, trying to figure answers. (But didn't find any good answers...except maybe some people were nuts.)
I was not 'perfect' before I came to understand God's Word, the Bible. I was far from perfection, leaning on my own sense of right and wrong -- and although I've changed, I know I'm still NOT perfect. I look forward to doing better, both now and in the resurrection."
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
Well, well, well -- that's nice of you. Thank you for your good wishes. I hope you're ok, too. My energy comes and goes...as the saying of some goes, I never thought getting old would be so hard. But it's teaching me compassion for older ones and sick ones. Jesus certainly exemplified that when he was on the earth. Thank you, Dan. :)
You're welcome.

I understand and that understanding is growing all too fast for my tastes. But it is what it is. Just so long as that is all that it is and nothing more.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
Repeating a post I made to someone else -- but applicable...
"It's amazing to me how awful some crimes are. Even before I believed in God I thought it was beyond reason why anyone would kill others and then kill themselves. I studied psychology and sociology to an extent, trying to figure answers. (But didn't find any good answers...except maybe some people were nuts.)
I don't understand that either. Some of them may be experiencing what would rightly be called insanity. Short-term or long. But I'm ever thankful for those of us that seek to learn, understand and find applications to resolve such problems that some people have.
I was not 'perfect' before I came to understand God's Word, the Bible. I was far from perfection, leaning on my own sense of right and wrong -- and although I've changed, I know I'm still NOT perfect. I look forward to doing better, both now and in the resurrection."
I think that life is our opportunity to seek, not perfection, but improvement. It an ongoing quest from the gifts of the intellect and curiosity we were given.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Or, just skip the gods and religions altogether and pursue moral excellence according to your conscience. Don't have one? Religions can't fix that.

You place more value in these religions than I do. Really, I look at the religious and I don't see better people. If you're a good religious person, you would have been a good atheistic humanist. If you're a bad guy outside of religion, then you'd be a bad guy in religion, and probably making money from it.

Too many of these people seem to think that good moral behavior consists of being polite and not speaking obscenities, going to church every week, promoting their faith, and contributing to the collection plate. In your faith, one also needs to talk about world peace.



None is needed.

Just as you don't need evidence to believe in one (or call prophecy or life sufficient evidence to conclude that a god exists), the critically thinking empiricist doesn't need evidence against gods to be an atheistic humanist. The lack of it is enough.

Would it matter to you if there were compelling evidence that your god doesn't exist? Would you see it and adapt accordingly? Most believers don't. I've posted several times that the god of the Christian Bible, who created the world in six days including an original pair of human beings doesn't exist, but it has never had any apparent impact. People go on worshiping it anyway.

The evidence that the creation myth is as false as any other creation myth doesn't matter to any Chistian that I've encountered. Some simply disbelieve the science, and some call the myths allegory, but none in my experience say, "I guess the Bible was wrong." These are the same people who can't see internal contradictions or who consider biblical prophecy strong evidence of divine prescience.

My point is that people who didn't come to their beliefs using evidence can't be budged from them whatever evidence arises.

But they do represent having an interest in reason and evidence. Most believers don't like to say that they don't need or use it just as they are averse to calling the Bible wrong.
So you don't know of any evidence disproving God.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I needed evidence to show me there is a God. You may not agree that it is evidence, but for me it is certainly evidence. To me it is like something very, very precious, so I do not share the evidence with everyone, but as far as I am concerned there is no doubt that it is evidence that God exists.
I might not have needed evidence to believe that there might be a God, but I needed evidence to be sure. This evidence to me is very, very precious, but it is the same evidence that other Baha'is have, and they also consider it very, very precious..

I did not need evidence to believe that there is an afterlife in a spiritual world, I was sure, but I got confirming evidence after my late husband passed on. This evidence to me is like something very, very precious, so I do not share the evidence with everyone, but as far as I am concerned there is absolutely no doubt that an afterlife in a spiritual world exists. I don't know anything about it but I know it exists.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I do not believe as you do.
but that does not mean that there is more than one God.
It means we believe differently about the one God that exists.

Look at the discussions between Christians on this forum....
All Christians do not believe the same way about God.
Some believe Jesus is God and others do not believe that.
Does that mean there is more than one God?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I don't understand that either. Some of them may be experiencing what would rightly be called insanity. Short-term or long. But I'm ever thankful for those of us that seek to learn, understand and find applications to resolve such problems that some people have.

I think that life is our opportunity to seek, not perfection, but improvement. It an ongoing quest from the gifts of the intellect and curiosity we were given.
If I did not have the hope that I do, with all its challenges, I am pretty sure I'd be dead or on drugs just to keep going. It's a long story and I don't share a lot of the details, but the hope of a resurrection and a peaceful new earth helps. That's also expressed in Revelation 21:1-5.
There was a singer who died pretty young (cancer), she was a remarkable talent and had an interesting attitude. She was on one of those talent shows. Her professional name was Nightbirde.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
but that does not mean that there is more than one God.
It means we believe differently about the one God that exists.

Look at the discussions between Christians on this forum....
All Christians do not believe the same way about God.
Some believe Jesus is God and others do not believe that.
Does that mean there is more than one God?
It means that you do not understand that there if one "true" God, like Jesus said, and obviously not all worship this one "true" God. Anyway, have a good day and thank you for letting me explain it to you.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I don't understand that either. Some of them may be experiencing what would rightly be called insanity. Short-term or long. But I'm ever thankful for those of us that seek to learn, understand and find applications to resolve such problems that some people have.

I think that life is our opportunity to seek, not perfection, but improvement. It an ongoing quest from the gifts of the intellect and curiosity we were given.
I was reading about a scientist who died recently. Article in the NY Times. Leonard Hayflick. Worth a read about him. Has a page on wikipedia. He made a comment about the idea that we do not live forever -- I paraphrase -- he said that he'd hate to think that people like Hitler and others like him would have their lives extended. But of course the Bible does not say that, nevertheless, even he, who scientifically uncovered a biologic reason why our lives are not extended for long-er periods of time, realized that villainous persons should not live for a long, long time anyway.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Correct, there is no proof for God and no proof against God.
Some of us do not feel that way. I believe life itself is the proof for God. If someone is not alive there is no proof of God's existence in that person because he (the person) doesn't exist. Even when a person is conceived they have no knowledge of the possibility of God in the womb or even for some time after birth.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
It means that you do not understand that there if one "true" God, like Jesus said, and obviously not all worship this one "true" God. Anyway, have a good day and thank you for letting me explain it to you.
If anyone is worshiping a false God it's not me. Baha'u'llah clearly revealed the one true God.
Reading the Bible is like trying to navigate an unmapped swamp. Anyone who could discover who the one true God is through all that would have to be a miracle worker.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
I was reading about a scientist who died recently. Article in the NY Times. Leonard Hayflick. Worth a read about him. Has a page on wikipedia. He made a comment about the idea that we do not live forever -- I paraphrase -- he said that he'd hate to think that people like Hitler and others like him would have their lives extended. But of course the Bible does not say that, nevertheless, even he, who scientifically uncovered a biologic reason why our lives are not extended for long-er periods of time, realized that villainous persons should not live for a long, long time anyway.
I didn't know the name, but I was taught some of his discoveries in general biology.

I'm not too worried even if the villainous did live unusually long lives. It wouldn't prevent them from receiving justice for the villainy. It would seem unfair, when better people not live so long, but it isn't the case anyway.

The Bible doesn't really say much, it just claims things and, of course, people interpret their own ideas out of that too.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
If I did not have the hope that I do, with all its challenges, I am pretty sure I'd be dead or on drugs just to keep going. It's a long story and I don't share a lot of the details, but the hope of a resurrection and a peaceful new earth helps. That's also expressed in Revelation 21:1-5.
There was a singer who died pretty young (cancer), she was a remarkable talent and had an interesting attitude. She was on one of those talent shows. Her professional name was Nightbirde.
That is a shame that anyone has their life cut so short. We have the life we have. Even if we take the best care of ourselves that we can, we can still end up with the maladies associated with age. I've known several people that didn't bother to eat right, drank at least occasionally, smoked, etc. and lived into their 90's. Some of us are born winners of the genetic lottery and others have to do the best we can. It is difficult to know if you win, since you have to survive that long to know.
 
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