There is no evidence for God, so why do you believe?

[SkepticThinker]

And even from the Jewish and Christian point of view, the world was given for believers to take care of.

That's what I was taught, back in my Christian days.

 

[Audie]

That's what I was taught, back in my Christian days.

"Take care of" like the mafia might say it?

 

[Kathryn]

No nonexistent being will go out of its way.

My first talk with a missionary in China was
with a Mormon.

Having read " Joseph Smith tells his own story"
and a few pages of BoM, I asked him how he could
believe such a ridiculous story.

In brief, he said he doubted, so he prayed.
A lot. For days!

The it came to him out of nowhere, with unmistaleable
power and clarity, the " small still voice", assuring him
it's all true.

Of course if he'd not been an easy sell and kept praying,
eventually he'd have gotten the opposite answer.

Well, I am not Mormon for a reason. However, I have been praying for decades so I think I would have heard a small still voice eventually. As it was. I was mostly just really, really convicted. I mean, I DID hear a small still voice one time, but other than that, the only voices I've heard have been awful (in the best sense) ones and I am pretty sure they have been my guardian angel or some sort of angel. And I have only heard that one one time. The other time I just sensed that he or she was cradling me.

 

[an anarchist]

I mean, I DID hear a small still voice one time, but other than that, the only voices I've heard have been awful (in the best sense) ones and I am pretty sure they have been my guardian angel or some sort of angel. And I have only heard that one one time. The other time I just sensed that he or she was cradling me.

And is this the basis of your continual faith? Or at the very least do you see it as support for the logic of staying a theist?

 

[Kathryn]

TRUE STORY TIME:

One time, I heard this small still voice say to me, clear as a bell, "I know your heart." This was after weeks and weeks of thinking I had committed "the unpardonable sin" which I certainly had not, and in a way I knew I had not. The other time I heard an awful voice. By "awful" I mean urgent and terrible but not horrible if that makes sense. So here's how I heard it, and you can decide: I had carbon monoxide poisoning but I didn't realize it - the heater was malfunctioning and I didn't realize it till afterward. One thing that carbon monoxide can do is give you a false sense of security and I was sitting on the floor (CO is heavier than oxygen so this wasn't good) and I was folding laundry and I kept looking at that laundry and thinking how comfortable it would be to just lay down in it and go to sleep (I should have known right then that things weren't right, but like I said, I had a false sense of "everything is alright.") So eventually I just laid down and went to sleep in that pile of laundry. Suddenly I heard the most awful voice saying urgently to me "WAKE UP. WAKE UP." So I did, and as soon as I sat up, my head was KILLING ME, and I crawled over to my husband, who was asleep on the sofa, and I woke him up, and as soon as I did, he grabbed his head too and said, "My head hurts so bad." I knew right away that we had been poisoned somehow, and I went stumbling down the hall and found the baby in his crib, completely passed out and he'd thrown up all in his eyes and mouth and nose. I remember grabbing him and putting him under the faucet and he wouldn't wake up and I was pretty incoherent myself but I do remember calling Poison Control and I remember putting down the phone and literally crawling to the door to give them our address, which I couldn't remember. I also remember that my stupid (ex) husband said, "You don't need to go to the doctor," and I remember looking at him and saying as if I was under water "I am taking the baby to the hospital and if we are sick, I am going to divorce you," (which I did afterward). I was only 8 miles from a hospital but it took me three hours to get there, and I have no idea or recollection of how or why I drove there but I did so. Anyway, I remember that all hell broke loose when I got there, and I remember that they were asking me all kinds of questions like "What day is it?" (It was the middle of the night) and "Who is the president of the United States?" (It was an election year and in December and the incumbent had not won so I failed that one too) and finally "Count backwards from 100 by sevens!" and I triumphantly said "93!" and that was all I could do. I also recall them asking if I smoked and when I said "No," they were all disappointed which was weird because I was in a hospital. Oh, they also said that they didn't know what to tell me about a prognosis because according to them, once someone fell asleep, they never woke up, but I had even though my oxygen levels were terrible. Anyway, so I believe that the voice that woke me up was an angel. Oh one other time I didn't hear a voice but I did sense the presence of an angel. This was actually just a couple of years ago. I had broken my elbow really badly and had been in the hospital for five days and had just gotten home. I was asleep next to my oldest granddaughter who was staying with me. It was about 5 am and I woke up because I felt this presence of someone hugging me. I said, "Maggie. Did you come over to my side of the bed and hug me?" I knew she hadn't but I had to ask because it was so real. She said "No," and I believed her and told her "I know," and to this day I believe it was an angel who hugged me.

 

[Kathryn]

And is this the basis of your continual faith? Or at the very least do you see it as support for the logic of staying a theist?

I see it as supporting evidence. See above.

 

[Audie]

Well, I am not Mormon for a reason. However, I have been praying for decades so I think I would have heard a small still voice eventually. As it was. I was mostly just really, really convicted. I mean, I DID hear a small still voice one time, but other than that, the only voices I've heard have been awful (in the best sense) ones and I am pretty sure they have been my guardian angel or some sort of angel. And I have only heard that one one time. The other time I just sensed that he or she was cradling me.

Just mentioned the story as example of how
people can be mislead.

Your way of coming to terms works for you,
and in that has my 100%!

 

[Madsaac]

No, I don't understand evidence, true and real like you do, as far as I can tell.

But please explain what evidence, real and true are, other that you using the words as such.

I suppose its just an opinion of mine that having evidence can make something more real or true.

And I think this opinion would be supported by the large majority of people.

And like all opinions, they can range from possibly up to very little doubt.

And when you have evidence of something the strength of the opinion is increased. And in this case, I think the idea of God lacks evidence.

Pretty simple really, you don't need all this 'philosophical' jargon to understand it

 

[Madsaac]

Cheers.

Yeah, no worries mate.

 

[YoursTrue]

And even from the Jewish and Christian point of view, the world was given for believers to take care of.

Realizing that not all those that purport to be a member of either faith believe the Bible, what you say in reference to that is true. But Adam killed that thought for himself and his progeny, and was left on his own more or less. The world that exists now with its pollution, crime, and greed is a result of that. People may try to improve things but we can see there's not much improvement in that field. Now here's a thought. Let's say there is a grown child. (We know Adam, according to the Bible, was created as an adult, not a baby)...the grown child is naive about certain things but his parent knows more. Yet the adult child rejects the parent's knowledge and wants to do it without following parent's instructions. Neverthessl, the promise was given at Isaiah 65 and Revelation 21 that one day things are going to be much better.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

This can down the proverbial a rabbit hole, I'll try and answer

Intuition or experience are the ways ways that I know something or going to know something.

And there are two types of knowledge, one that require evidence and one that doesn't

So knowing can be subjective, that is what I think I know to be real or true, no evidence required. For example god or I blue is the best colour.

And there can be objective knowledge, which has been proven to be real or true and is supported by 'evidence'. (As best can can be because nothing can be 100% real or true) For example, laws of physics

Well, based on that I already know what is debated about, I can figure out what you are on about. Now based on the US grade system I would give you a D-.
You get the basics of empiricism and that is all. No doubt about what knowledge is and if there are limits to it. Or even if there are more than your 2 types of knowledge or why one of yours are sometimes not considered knowledge.

Now this says nothing about the value of humans and that includes us both, but it shows in effect your level of understanding when it comes to knowledge. That is it. And that has nothing to do with religion or not.

 

[Madsaac]

Well, based on that I already know what is debated about, I can figure out what you are on about. Now based on the US grade system I would give you a D-.
You get the basics of empiricism and that is all. No doubt about what knowledge is and if there are limits to it. Or even if there are more than your 2 types of knowledge or why one of yours are sometimes not considered knowledge.

Now this says nothing about the value of humans and that includes us both, but it shows in effect your level of understanding when it comes to knowledge. That is it. And that has nothing to do with religion or not.

Thanks for your honesty. Maybe my answer was a little too complicated

Let me break it down

Knowledge, beliefs and understanding are gained in two ways
Rationalism (Nature) and Empiricism (Nurture)

Express your knowledge, beliefs and understanding in two main ways:
Subjectively (Opinion) such as feelings, interpretations, thoughts. (Doesn't always need evidence of some sort)
Objectively (Fact) For example, physics. (Always needs evidence of some sort)

And all of this largely depends on your level of consciousness.

Okay, there we go, a quick summary of 3000 years of the philosophy of Epistemology
My grade system A+

Anything I missed

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Thanks for your honesty. Maybe my answer was a little too complicated

Let me break it down

Knowledge, beliefs and understanding are gained in two ways
Rationalism (Nature) and Empiricism (Nurture)

Express your knowledge, beliefs and understanding in two main ways:
Subjectively (Opinion) such as feelings, interpretations, thoughts. (Doesn't always need evidence of some sort)
Objectively (Fact) For example, maths. (Always needs evidence of some sort)

And all of this largely depends on your level of consciousness.

Okay, there we go, a quick summary of 3000 years of philosophy
My grade system A+

Anything I missed

Well, gravity is not objective in the same sense as math.

And you haven't doubted evidence as a concept and e.g. explained the difference between logical positivism and empirical falsification.

 

[Madsaac]

Well, gravity is not objective in the same sense as math.

It might be different but it's still certainly an objective truth based on evidence

And you haven't doubted evidence as a concept and e.g. explained the difference between logical positivism and empirical falsification

Evidence as a concept? What do you mean? It's either there or it isn't?

Logical positivism and empirical falsification are just forms of empiricism, something tested.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

It might be different but it's still certainly an objective truth based on evidence

Evidence as a concept? What do you mean?

Yeah, I may have trouble doing that but these are just forms of empiricism, something tested.

You are aware that there are different versions of objective, right?

Evidence is a part of cognitive abstracts concepts and not objective as something objective like gravity.

 

[Madsaac]

You are aware that there are different versions of objective, right?

Evidence is a part of cognitive abstracts concepts and not objective as something objective like gravity.

Yes, but they are still regarded as objective.

Yes, but what matters is the function of evidence? What role does evidence play?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Yes, but they are still regarded as objective.

Yes, but what matters is the function of evidence?

Look here at some of the relevant versions of objective:

Definition of OBJECTIVE

expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations; limited to choices of fixed alternatives and reducing subjective factors to a minimum… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

1a is not the same as 2a and 2b.

But there are different versions of the concepts of evidence, which are in effect contradictionary.

And evidence in science is still a subset of epistemology and that is in effect philosophy.

 

[Madsaac]

1a is not the same as 2a and 2b.

Yeah but we're getting pedantic. Lets just compare it in a broader sense to subjective beliefs and knowledge.

But there are different versions of the concepts of evidence, which are in effect contradictionary.

Could you give some examples, please

And evidence in science is still a subset of epistemology and that is in effect philosophy.

Yeah, that's right but its function is still the same?

I have to go but I would like to continue with this somehow.

Thanks

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Yeah but we're getting pedantic. Lets just compare it in a broader sense to subjective beliefs and knowledge.

Could you give some examples, please

Yeah, that's right but its function is still the same?

I have to go but I would like to continue with this somehow.

Thanks

Something is true and not true as based on induction as used as a form of logic.

As for: "Yeah but we're getting pedantic. ...". That is your subjective opinion. I have another one.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

TRUE STORY TIME:

One time, I heard this small still voice say to me, clear as a bell, "I know your heart." This was after weeks and weeks of thinking I had committed "the unpardonable sin" which I certainly had not, and in a way I knew I had not. The other time I heard an awful voice. By "awful" I mean urgent and terrible but not horrible if that makes sense. So here's how I heard it, and you can decide: I had carbon monoxide poisoning but I didn't realize it - the heater was malfunctioning and I didn't realize it till afterward. One thing that carbon monoxide can do is give you a false sense of security and I was sitting on the floor (CO is heavier than oxygen so this wasn't good) and I was folding laundry and I kept looking at that laundry and thinking how comfortable it would be to just lay down in it and go to sleep (I should have known right then that things weren't right, but like I said, I had a false sense of "everything is alright.") So eventually I just laid down and went to sleep in that pile of laundry. Suddenly I heard the most awful voice saying urgently to me "WAKE UP. WAKE UP." So I did, and as soon as I sat up, my head was KILLING ME, and I crawled over to my husband, who was asleep on the sofa, and I woke him up, and as soon as I did, he grabbed his head too and said, "My head hurts so bad." I knew right away that we had been poisoned somehow, and I went stumbling down the hall and found the baby in his crib, completely passed out and he'd thrown up all in his eyes and mouth and nose. I remember grabbing him and putting him under the faucet and he wouldn't wake up and I was pretty incoherent myself but I do remember calling Poison Control and I remember putting down the phone and literally crawling to the door to give them our address, which I couldn't remember. I also remember that my stupid (ex) husband said, "You don't need to go to the doctor," and I remember looking at him and saying as if I was under water "I am taking the baby to the hospital and if we are sick, I am going to divorce you," (which I did afterward). I was only 8 miles from a hospital but it took me three hours to get there, and I have no idea or recollection of how or why I drove there but I did so. Anyway, I remember that all hell broke loose when I got there, and I remember that they were asking me all kinds of questions like "What day is it?" (It was the middle of the night) and "Who is the president of the United States?" (It was an election year and in December and the incumbent had not won so I failed that one too) and finally "Count backwards from 100 by sevens!" and I triumphantly said "93!" and that was all I could do. I also recall them asking if I smoked and when I said "No," they were all disappointed which was weird because I was in a hospital. Oh, they also said that they didn't know what to tell me about a prognosis because according to them, once someone fell asleep, they never woke up, but I had even though my oxygen levels were terrible. Anyway, so I believe that the voice that woke me up was an angel. Oh one other time I didn't hear a voice but I did sense the presence of an angel. This was actually just a couple of years ago. I had broken my elbow really badly and had been in the hospital for five days and had just gotten home. I was asleep next to my oldest granddaughter who was staying with me. It was about 5 am and I woke up because I felt this presence of someone hugging me. I said, "Maggie. Did you come over to my side of the bed and hug me?" I knew she hadn't but I had to ask because it was so real. She said "No," and I believed her and told her "I know," and to this day I believe it was an angel who hugged me.

So the reasons for your belief in God:

- the phrase "I know your heart" once popped into your head, apparently unprompted.
- while in an altered state (through no fault of your own, of course), you heard a voice.

That's it? Really?