"There is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood."

[viole]

Maybe he has several last words?

Or, more likely, different biographers making things up.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Sabour]

Well let us go back to the conversation and see how we got to this point.

Me

Jesus peace be upon him taught the way to eternal life is through obeying the commandments, and not through what you said.

You

people have tried for thousands of years to live by the commandments and have failed.

Not one of all the millions who've tried has been saved by obedience to the mosaic law.

why do you suppose that is?

Me

Are you saying that Jesus peace be upon him was wrong about his teaching and we know better?

You

Jesus said that death will be removed from mankind during the time of the 'judgement day'

we have not entered that time yet. When we do enter that time the full benefits of Jesus sacrifice will be applied to mankind and God will remove the divine penalty from us.

Me

That is when our sins can be 'completely' atoned for so that we do not have to pay the price for sin, namely death. The key point here is that the divine penalty cannot be removed by us...it can only be removed by Jesus which is why he is called the 'resurrection and the life'

You

Jesus said that death will be removed from mankind during the time of the 'judgement day'

Me

Where did he say that? Is it explicit? or implicit taken out of context?

So basically, you didn't refute my question when I asked did Jesus peace be upon him didn't know the way to salvation. Instead, you gave me another answer. Which makes him contradict himself by sometimes saying follow commandments and sometime saying believe in me.

The explanation you provided is by referring to another time at the day of Judgement. So are you saying there is a double salvation? One while living and another at the day of Judgement? I think you have a problem with prooofs because none of what you said was backed up by anything

John 11:23 Jesus said to her: “Your brother will rise.” 24 Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life; 26 and everyone who is living and exercises faith in me will never die at all. Do you believe this?”

This is not explicit at all. Believe in Jesus as what? As one who died for your sins? No. Believe in him as a prophet.

This was the teaching of Jesus....all who had died will be brought back to life:
John 5:28, 29 Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.

Acts 24:15 And I have hope toward God, which hope these men also look forward to, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous

And this teaching was in harmony with the Hebrew scriptures too:

Isaiah 26:19 “Your dead will live. My corpses will rise up. Awake and shout joyfully, You residents in the dust! For your dew is as the dew of the morning, And the earth will let those powerless in death come to life

Hosea 13:14 From the power of the Grave I will redeem them; From death I will recover them. Where are your stings, O Death? Where is your destructiveness, O Grave? Compassion will be concealed from my eyes.

Yes the bible does say this.
John 11:25 Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life


While Jesus was dying on the torture stake, the man next to him asked to be remembered. Jesus reply shows that even that man will be brought back to life and given another chance for Jesus told him: "you will be with me in paradise"

How could Jesus know that the criminal beside him would be in paradise? He knew because when we die, we are paying the price of sin. Death was the punishment as mentioned in the book of James:
James 1:15 Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn sin, when it has been carried out, brings forth death

When we die, we are paying the price for the sins we committed in our life. The only reason why we have the opportunity to live forever after our resurrection is because our sins are wiped out. We are no longer held accountable for the sins of the past because the debt has been repaid. Thats why those who are resurrected have the prospect of eternal life as revelation shows;
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. The dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead in it, and death and the Grave gave up the dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds. 14 And death and the Grave were hurled into the lake of fire

Sorry that I made you write too much but I didn't seem to find the part where it says you have to believe the Jesus DIED for people's sins.

 

[CMike]

people have tried for thousands of years to live by the commandments and have failed.

Not one of all the millions who've tried has been saved by obedience to the mosaic law.

why do you suppose that is?

Your assumptions are incorrect.

G-D said in the Torah that none of the commandments given to the jews were unreachable.

G-D made us. He knows we are not perfect, and he doesn't expect us to be.

For example, if one gets a speeding ticket it doesn't mean that they can't live by American law.

The way we find our we are successful is when we die and land in the World To Come.

 

[CMike]

so there is no one living beyond this? What about all the people who strive to live by the mosaic law? Why aren't they living forever???




live eternally.... does the mosaic law save a person from death? No. No amount of trying is going to give you everlasting life.



I can point you to the verses which say that the righteous will be living forever on earth....

Ps 37:29 The righteous will possess the earth,
And they will live forever on it

Proverbs 2:21 For only the upright will reside in the earth, And the blameless will remain in it.

Matthew 5:5 “Happy are the mild-tempered, since they will inherit the earth.


Matthew 19:16 Now look! someone came up to him and said: “Teacher, what good must I do to gain everlasting life?” 17 He said to him: “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If, though, you want to enter into life, observe the commandments continually.” 18 He said to him: “Which ones?” Jesus said: “You must not murder, you must not commit adultery, you must not steal, you must not bear false witness, 19 honor your father and your mother, and you must love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man said to him: “I have kept all of these; what am I still lacking?”


To enter into life, a person must be 'perfect' and observe the 'commandments continually'
the young jew who asked Jesus this question said that he had observed all the commandments yet that young man is not with us today. Why did he die if he was observing all the commandments?

Even the law says that a person can live forever if they are 'righteous' and observe the law. So why dont these ones remain alive?

We all die. However, we continue on in the World To Come.

 

[CMike]

Originally Posted by Tumah View Post
And therefore you of course have failed to prove that of the millions of people that have/do abide/d by the Mosaic Law, none have managed to do so successfully.

do they die?

Yeah, so?

 

[CMike]

Rabbi Akiva knew he would be tortured and die saying, "I've waited all my life" [for this moment, to show God the full extent of my devotion].. -- He knew the Roman's power of the law could, and most likely would, have him executed before God, so Rabbi Akiva did indeed sacrifice himself. If Rabbi Akiva was capable of maintaining students without making that spectacle in the square, then Rabbi Akiva sacrificed himself knowing the impact of his own death, and his last words. Rabbi Akiva must've known, that as he glorified his own torture, telling his students that it was his most anticipated devotion to God, that they would become inspired. They did. It's not a stretch to think some of them even began to rebel against the Roman's power of law, and died in like manner. We do know that they preserved Rabbi Akiva's example for you to read, CMike.

Jesus proclaimed God's greatness, not his own. He called himself the son of Man over and over again; this should indicate to the reader that mere men, and children specifically, are capable of the things Jesus proclaims of himself as a Rabbi/example, and of his disciples. Jesus is quoted in the gospels proclaiming God's love for ordinary people. He would say, "your faith in God has made you well." If Jesus was lying, then the Scriptures are lying.

Rabbi Akiva didn't glorify in his torture. Torture is a bad thing.

Putting yourself in danger doesn't mean you are sacrificing yourself.

He was happy that he stood by his principles in the face of torture and death. It's one thing to think of this scenario. It's another thing to actually be able to do it. That's why he was content.

Soldiers in combat often put themselves in great harm. That doesn't mean that they expect to die.

The jews in the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising were fighting against overwhelming odds, with virtually no change of success, but they weren't sacrificing themselves.

Jesus proclaimed mainly his own greatness. He told people that they can only get to G-D through him. That he is exeryone's saviour:no:, that people must put their trust in him.

That was all wrong. The only saviour for the jews is the one and only G-D.

Rabbi Akiva was proclaiming G-D's greatness when he died, jesus was proclaiming his own.

 

[Sleeppy]

Putting yourself in danger doesn't mean you are sacrificing yourself.

Putting yourself in danger does mean that you are sacrificing your own safety. When soldiers go to war, they are sacrificing their own safety, and risking their lives, for the sake of others. The same is true for uprisings, martyrs, etc.


Jews have been claiming their superiority since Abraham, not Jesus. There stood a temple in Jerusalem, where generations of Jews would go to worship God. They all believed God resided inside, to guide them and accept their offerings of repentance. Before the temple, God walked up and down in a tent. Did Jews acknowledge God's presence anywhere else in the world, at these times? Or did they say to the rest of the world, "The only way to your Father, is through us?"

 

[Pegg]

So basically, you didn't refute my question when I asked did Jesus peace be upon him didn't know the way to salvation. Instead, you gave me another answer. Which makes him contradict himself by sometimes saying follow commandments and sometime saying believe in me.

Jesus spoke of 'eternal life'

No one is yet living eternally are they?

The explanation you provided is by referring to another time at the day of Judgement. So are you saying there is a double salvation? One while living and another at the day of Judgement? I think you have a problem with prooofs because none of what you said was backed up by anything

Yes, because 'eternal life' comes to mankind during the time of the Resurrection, also known as the 'judgement day'

Thats when Jesus sacrifice will be applied to mankind so that they may live on earth 'eternally'

This is not explicit at all. Believe in Jesus as what? As one who died for your sins? No. Believe in him as a prophet.

Jesus said that he is the 'resurrection' meaning he is the one who will bring mankind back to life during the judgement day.

Sorry that I made you write too much but I didn't seem to find the part where it says you have to believe the Jesus DIED for people's sins.

I dont understand what you are asking here.

The christian faith is built on the foundation that Jesus died for our sins. It is the basic precept of our faith.

His death makes eternal life possible in the near future.

 

[Pegg]

Your assumptions are incorrect.

G-D said in the Torah that none of the commandments given to the jews were unreachable.

this is true, Jesus showed that it was possible for mankind to live perfectly by the laws of God. So yes, i know its possible.

But we are talking here about 'eternal life'

The scriptures show that Adam died because of sin. Every human has been dying which proves they are all sinning. And it also proves that having the mosaic laws and trying to live by them has failed to bring about perfection in its adherents.

G-D made us. He knows we are not perfect, and he doesn't expect us to be.

thats true, but he doesn't remove death from us either.

For example, if one gets a speeding ticket it doesn't mean that they can't live by American law.

no, you must pay the penalty. And when we sin against Gods law, we must also pay the penalty, death.

The way we find our we are successful is when we die and land in the World To Come.

there is no world to come.

The hebrew scriptures do not have such an afterlife. The only world to come is the earthly paradise where living people will reside.

 

[Pegg]

Yeah, so?

so they are still sinning against Gods law then.

And that is proof that the mosaic law in itself cannot bring about salvation to mankind.

sin and death remain.

 

[idav]

His death makes eternal life possible in the near future.

It is the tree of life and access to it that brings eternal life. Its in revelation. It was always possible just has to be granted by god, just as simple as his willing it.

 

[Sabour]

Jesus spoke of 'eternal life'

No one is yet living eternally are they?

Let me answer you in your own words. "Yes, because 'eternal life' comes to mankind during the time of the Resurrection, also known as the 'judgement day'" However, eternal life comes after the Judgement Day.

Yes, because 'eternal life' comes to mankind during the time of the Resurrection, also known as the 'judgement day'

Thats when Jesus sacrifice will be applied to mankind so that they may live on earth 'eternally'

Still you are not providing to evidence for your Jesus' sacrifice.

Jesus said that he is the 'resurrection' meaning he is the one who will bring mankind back to life during the judgement day.

No this is not the meaning. Continue reading the verse to understand. The one who exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life.

Exercises faith in him means following his commandments. Not in anywhere it says you have to believe that Jesus peace be upon him died for your sins. This is the church teaching.

The christian faith is built on the foundation that Jesus died for our sins. It is the basic precept of our faith.

That is the church's teaching. It is not Jesus' peace be upon him teaching.

 

[Pegg]

Let me answer you in your own words. "Yes, because 'eternal life' comes to mankind during the time of the Resurrection, also known as the 'judgement day'" However, eternal life comes after the Judgement Day.

Still you are not providing to evidence for your Jesus' sacrifice.

Those who are resurrected during the judgement day will not suffer the effects of sin as we currently are. We are dying. But those resurrected ones will not be in a state of dying.

Hebrews 10:5 So when he comes into the world, he says: “‘Sacrifice and offering you did not want, but you prepared a body for me. 6 You did not approve of whole burnt offerings and sin offerings.’ 7 Then I said: ‘Look! I have come (in the scroll it is written about me) to do your will, O God.’” 8 After first saying: “You did not want nor did you approve of sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sin offerings”—sacrifices that are offered according to the Law— 9 then he says: “Look! I have come to do your will.” He does away with what is first in order to establish what is second. 10 By this “will” we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time.

No this is not the meaning. Continue reading the verse to understand. The one who exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life.

Exercises faith in him means following his commandments. Not in anywhere it says you have to believe that Jesus peace be upon him died for your sins. This is the church teaching.

Hebrews 13:12 Therefore, Jesus also suffered outside the city gate in order to sanctify the people with his own blood.


1Peter 1:17 And if you are calling on the Father who judges impartially according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves with fear during the time of your temporary residence. 18 For you know that it was not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, that you were set free from your futile way of life handed down to you by your forefathers. 19 But it was with precious blood, like that of an unblemished and spotless lamb, that of Christ.[/COLOR][/I]

1JOhn 2 My little children, I am writing you these things so that you may not commit a sin. And yet, if anyone does commit a sin, we have a helper with the Father, Jesus Christ, a righteous one. 2 And he is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole world’s.



1 Peter 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his own body on the stake, so that we might die to sins and live to righteousness. And “by his wounds you were healed.”


Putting faith in Christ means to accept that he did die for our sins because he is the means of complete forgiveness and eternal life. If a person refuses to accept that it was Jesus shed blood which saves us, then he is not worthy of the salvation being offered. God is granting such salvation to those who put faith in the blood of Christ.

 

[Sabour]

Those who are resurrected during the judgement day will not suffer the effects of sin as we currently are. We are dying. But those resurrected ones will not be in a state of dying.

This is an explanation, not a proof

Hebrews 10:5 So when he comes into the world, he says: “‘Sacrifice and offering you did not want, but you prepared a body for me. 6 You did not approve of whole burnt offerings and sin offerings.’ 7 Then I said: ‘Look! I have come (in the scroll it is written about me) to do your will, O God.’” 8 After first saying: “You did not want nor did you approve of sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sin offerings”—sacrifices that are offered according to the Law— 9 then he says: “Look! I have come to do your will.” He does away with what is first in order to establish what is second. 10 By this “will” we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time.

These are explanations out of context. Can you answer my question of why did Jesus peace be upon him said that the only way to eternal life is obeying the commandments. Or you will quote me other verses that are explained according to beliefs?

Whenever there is a contradiction, this means that one is correct and the other is wrong.

Make up your mind on which to pick. Is Eternal life through believing that Jesus died for sins, or it is by keeping the commandments?

Besides, take time to watch this

[youtube]Gfn5a2jXqFA[/youtube]
Q&A Al-Quran View Of JESUS Crucifixion - Sheikh Ahmed Deedat - YouTube

 

[BruceDLimber]

Do you mean on the cross? Everything I've read indicates otherwise.

Jesus died on the cross, yes; and our scriptures stipulate this.

Other Divine Messengers have killed in other ways.

Bruce

 

[Desert Snake]

Jesus died on the cross, yes; and our scriptures stipulate this.

Other Divine Messengers have killed in other ways.

Bruce

This theory is problematic. First, it doesn't fit the narrative. Second, it doesn't fit known recorded history of the event, no roman records etc. Thirdly, it doesn't match the belief of the Christians, who took up that religion.

 

[CMike]

Putting yourself in danger does mean that you are sacrificing your own safety. When soldiers go to war, they are sacrificing their own safety, and risking their lives, for the sake of others. The same is true for uprisings, martyrs, etc.


Jews have been claiming their superiority since Abraham, not Jesus. There stood a temple in Jerusalem, where generations of Jews would go to worship God. They all believed God resided inside, to guide them and accept their offerings of repentance. Before the temple, God walked up and down in a tent. Did Jews acknowledge God's presence anywhere else in the world, at these times? Or did they say to the rest of the world, "The only way to your Father, is through us?"

Putting yourself in danger doesn't mean you are sacrificing your life.

Jews at least believe that you don't have to be jewish to get to heaven.

Christians believe that everyone who isn't christian will burn in hell.

So who thinks that they are superior?

 

[CMike]

this is true, Jesus showed that it was possible for mankind to live perfectly by the laws of God. So yes, i know its possible.

Jesus was just human. He did not live perfectly.

But we are talking here about 'eternal life'

The scriptures show that Adam died because of sin. Every human has been dying which proves they are all sinning. And it also proves that having the mosaic laws and trying to live by them has failed to bring about perfection in its adherents.

Everyone sins. We are human.

However, we also have the World To Come. No one is perfect.

G-D said that all the laws are reachable.

thats true, but he doesn't remove death from us either.

So? We still have a place to go after we die.

there is no world to come.

The hebrew scriptures do not have such an afterlife. The only world to come is the earthly paradise where living people will reside.

That is incorrect. The World to Come is an important part in judaism.

 

[Pegg]

So? We still have a place to go after we die.

Yes, i know.

Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”


Psalm 104:29 When you hide your face, they are disturbed. If you take away their spirit, they die and return to the dust.

Ecclesiastes 3:20 All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust.

if you are relying on this so-called 'world to come' to obtain salvation, it doesnt provide any. The hebrew scriptures clearly state that death does not lead to life. You wont move onto a better place.... you will return to 'dust' according to your scriptures.


.

 

[Thief]

Jesus was just human. He did not live perfectly.

Everyone sins. We are human.

However, we also have the World To Come. No one is perfect.

G-D said that all the laws are reachable.

So? We still have a place to go after we die.

That is incorrect. The World to Come is an important part in judaism.

Most Christians will part from this altogether.

They believe Jesus was perfect.
It is central to the notion of the Lamb without blemish.

All have sinned is often said.
But the Carpenter did instruct...'Be thou perfect as your Father in heaven'

The law may be obtainable.
But I suspect a greater discipline is pending.
In this life we have law and discipline.
How much greater then, the discipline to walk among angels?

The world to come is spiritual.