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There is NO Historical Evidence for Jesus

Colt

Well-Known Member
Modern science and Law has known for a long time that "the burden of proof" lies with the claimant NOT the challenger (those who question the claims made by a claimant). This is a VERY BASIC concept, like logic and reason.
Even if the infinite of spiritual truth revealed itself to you, then there is no guarantee that you would agree with, surrender to and dedicate your life to its guidance. I see demands for proof as an insincere and convenient excuse.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
Did I say that I was the one that refuted your claims? I have refuted some of them. But all of your poor arguments have been refuted here.

And you are quite wrong. I only oppose those that abuse faith here. Religion can have a place here. I oppose religion that causes people to harm others.
Neither you nor anyone have disproven the infinite on this forum. Defiant brats denying their maker with a bunch of mental gymnastics isn’t proof of anything other than the evil of such perps!
 
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timothy1027

Technology Advocate! :-)
You haven't refuted claims, rather you just restate your general ignorance of spiritual realities with belligerent denial. Religion exists universally. You may not understand it but it persists. You haven't disproven the spiritual foundation for religious devotion. “There is no word in any human language which can be employed to designate this “sense,” “feeling,” “intuition,” or “experience” which we have elected to call God-consciousness.”

You have a motive for joining a religious forum and attempting to debunk faith. You may, need a hobby, like to argue, have an otherwise boring life, have a need to control others, nurse a personal grudge against religious peoples, or all of those things.
"All you have is mere belief."
Mere belief is invalid because it lacks EVIDENCE. This is a basic concept that pushers of ancient mythology seem to HATE! :)
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
"All you have is mere belief."
Mere belief is invalid because it lacks EVIDENCE. This is a basic concept that pushers of ancient mythology seem to HATE! :)
Not true, mere belief becomes living faith when it shapes the mode of living. I have the evidence of my experience with God within. I've seen God work in the lives of others.

In materialism the ego self wants to be its own savior! Religion offers salvation from self.

"Belief has attained the level of faith when it motivates life and shapes the mode of living. The acceptance of a teaching as true is not faith; that is mere belief. Neither is certainty nor conviction faith. A state of mind attains to faith levels only when it actually dominates the mode of living. Faith is a living attribute of genuine personal religious experience. One believes truth, admires beauty, and reverences goodness, but does not worship them; such an attitude of saving faith is centered on God alone, who is all of these personified and infinitely more." UB


" The exquisite and transcendent experience of loving and being loved is not just a psychic illusion because it is so purely subjective. The one truly divine and objective reality that is associated with mortal beings, the Thought Adjuster, functions to human observation apparently as an exclusively subjective phenomenon. Man’s contact with the highest objective reality, God, is only through the purely subjective experience of knowing him, of worshiping him, of realizing sonship with him."
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If you sincerely search for God who is spirit within then you will find the evidence that you demand others provide.
Sincerely search within? What does that mean specifically? Intently look around for a god in the recesses of the mind with the expectation of finding one? If you have that attitude, you're already a theist. Do that with an open mind - one ready to reject the notion of a god if the evidence is insufficient to support it, one sincerely searching for the truth rather than what he hopes to find - and one concludes that he is experiencing his own mind.

Don't forget that some of us have lived that life already then rejected it. They have a different understanding of what is happening in the theist's mind when he claims to have found a god that he can't describe except as love. He's found a warm, pleasant feeling within that he calls evidence of a god, but its a mental state generated by the brain in response to an apprehension experienced as spiritual, like contemplating the night sky with an understanding of what one is looking at, and feeling a frisson run one's spine. The evidence that this is a product of the mind is that it is rare in uninformed minds, like a child's. He sees everything the mature, informed person does, but his immature mind doesn't generate a sense of spirituality.

It's exactly analogous to sensing beauty or humor. The brain generates a pleasant sensation. It's not a god being sensed. This is what you have found within.
Atheists hide behind demands for subjective proofs knowing full well that it can't be provided objectively.
Apologists hide behind the idea that something that can't be detected can exist. If you have no better evidence for gods than warm feelings within, then maybe that's because that's all that what you call a god is. They don't seem to understand that the absence of evidence isn't just a minor objection, but the proper basis for unbelief. What you have are intuitions that are fallaciously considered evidence for a god. If you look deep within and with sincerity, you can confirm that all you have is a feeling and a conclusion about its origin that you can't justify.
I don’t need evidence for the God that I already found.
You need evidence that the feeling that you assume is a god is actually a god and not just a feeling.
Finding God requires ego deflation
Translation: loosen your standards for belief and stop trusting your own judgment. Does your mind tell you that an idea in incoherent or immoral? Deflate your ego and just accept that if the books says it, you should believe it. Subordinate your will.
You seem far from seeking God with a sincere heart.
He's a critical thinker. He doesn't let his "heart" (emotions, imagination) think for him. He uses his higher centers - in this case, critical thought centers - to direct the passions.
Religion at its core is generic. It’s been a universal phenomenon around the world.
Is that an argument for a god? It sounds like a description of human psychology.
Religionists in one religion may claim the only right God, Gods or no God, but that’s more an issue of theological arrogance.
Claiming to know anything about gods is theological arrogance.
You have a motive for joining a religious forum and attempting to debunk faith.
Of course he does. So do I. It's been explained to you what the draw is. But religion has convinced you that atheists are evil, and so you impute some find of base purpose in the skeptic.
Even if the infinite of spiritual truth revealed itself to you, then there is no guarantee that you would agree with, surrender to and dedicate your life to its guidance.
I have what is as close to the truth as I will ever have. It was revealed through mindful living, which led to the accumulation of a set of beliefs that have served me well. It was revealed while experiencing nature and generalizing on that experience. Of course, I doubt that we mean the same thing by the word truth. We have different criteria for using that word.
Defiant brats denying their maker with a bunch of mental gymnastics isn’t proof of anything other than the evil of such perps!
This is (in part) why I'm an antitheist. Look at what it teaches.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Even if the infinite of spiritual truth revealed itself to you, then there is no guarantee that you would agree with, surrender to and dedicate your life to its guidance. I see demands for proof as an insincere and convenient excuse.
That is only because you do not have any evidence. All that you are are bad arguments. Irrational beliefs cause people to try to blame others. If people ask me how we know that evolution is a fact I can show them. With observations, evidence, and logic. You have nothing but blame shifting.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Neither you nor anyone have disproven the infinite on this forum. Defiant brats denying their maker with a bunch of mental gymnastics isn’t proof of anything other than the evil of such perps!
If you cannot understand basic logic and reasoning that is not our fault. That you have failed to meet your burden of proof has been explained to you endlessly. That your reasoning is very often self contradictory has been explained to you endlessly. That you cannot support the use of your own holy book has been explained to you endlessly.

Don't blame others for an inability to reason on your part.
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
That is only because you do not have any evidence. All that you are are bad arguments. Irrational beliefs cause people to try to blame others. If people ask me how we know that evolution is a fact I can show them. With observations, evidence, and logic. You have nothing but blame shifting.

If you cannot understand basic logic and reasoning that is not our fault. That you have failed to meet your burden of proof has been explained to you endlessly. That your reasoning is very often self contradictory has been explained to you endlessly. That you cannot support the use of your own holy book has been explained to you endlessly.

Don't blame others for an inability to reason on your part.

Winner frubal. Well said.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
Sincerely search within? What does that mean specifically? Intently look around for a god in the recesses of the mind with the expectation of finding one? If you have that attitude, you're already a theist. Do that with an open mind - one ready to reject the notion of a god if the evidence is insufficient to support it, one sincerely searching for the truth rather than what he hopes to find - and one concludes that he is experiencing his own mind.

Don't forget that some of us have lived that life already then rejected it. They have a different understanding of what is happening in the theist's mind when he claims to have found a god that he can't describe except as love. He's found a warm, pleasant feeling within that he calls evidence of a god, but its a mental state generated by the brain in response to an apprehension experienced as spiritual, like contemplating the night sky with an understanding of what one is looking at, and feeling a frisson run one's spine. The evidence that this is a product of the mind is that it is rare in uninformed minds, like a child's. He sees everything the mature, informed person does, but his immature mind doesn't generate a sense of spirituality.

It's exactly analogous to sensing beauty or humor. The brain generates a pleasant sensation. It's not a god being sensed. This is what you have found within.

Apologists hide behind the idea that something that can't be detected can exist. If you have no better evidence for gods than warm feelings within, then maybe that's because that's all that what you call a god is. They don't seem to understand that the absence of evidence isn't just a minor objection, but the proper basis for unbelief. What you have are intuitions that are fallaciously considered evidence for a god. If you look deep within and with sincerity, you can confirm that all you have is a feeling and a conclusion about its origin that you can't justify.

You need evidence that the feeling that you assume is a god is actually a god and not just a feeling.

Translation: loosen your standards for belief and stop trusting your own judgment. Does your mind tell you that an idea in incoherent or immoral? Deflate your ego and just accept that if the books says it, you should believe it. Subordinate your will.

He's a critical thinker. He doesn't let his "heart" (emotions, imagination) think for him. He uses his higher centers - in this case, critical thought centers - to direct the passions.

Is that an argument for a god? It sounds like a description of human psychology.

Claiming to know anything about gods is theological arrogance.

Of course he does. So do I. It's been explained to you what the draw is. But religion has convinced you that atheists are evil, and so you impute some find of base purpose in the skeptic.

I have what is as close to the truth as I will ever have. It was revealed through mindful living, which led to the accumulation of a set of beliefs that have served me well. It was revealed while experiencing nature and generalizing on that experience. Of course, I doubt that we mean the same thing by the word truth. We have different criteria for using that word.

This is (in part) why I'm an antitheist. Look at what it teaches.
God is a subjective experience. If you don't want to cooperate with God then don't.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
If you cannot understand basic logic and reasoning that is not our fault. That you have failed to meet your burden of proof has been explained to you endlessly. That your reasoning is very often self contradictory has been explained to you endlessly. That you cannot support the use of your own holy book has been explained to you endlessly.

Don't blame others for an inability to reason on your part.
I have consistently maintained that spirituality is a subjective experience. Atheists hide behind the demands of subjective proofs.

Material mind is the arena in which human personalities live, are self-conscious, make decisions, choose God or forsake him, eternalize or destroy themselves.

The Mind arena of choice:



111:1.4 (1216.5) Material evolution has provided you a life machine, your body; the Father himself has endowed you with the purest spirit reality known in the universe, your Thought Adjuster. But into your hands, subject to your own decisions, has been given mind, and it is by mind that you live or die. It is within this mind and with this mind that you make those moral decisions which enable you to achieve Adjusterlikeness, and that is Godlikeness.

111:1.5 (1216.6) Mortal mind is a temporary intellect system loaned to human beings for use during a material lifetime, and as they use this mind, they are either accepting or rejecting the potential of eternal existence. Mind is about all you have of universe reality that is subject to your will, and the soul—the morontia self—will faithfully portray the harvest of the temporal decisions which the mortal self is making. Human consciousness rests gently upon the electrochemical mechanism below and delicately touches the spirit-morontia energy system above. Of neither of these two systems is the human being ever completely conscious in his mortal life; therefore must he work in mind, of which he is conscious. And it is not so much what mind comprehends as what mind desires to comprehend that insures survival; it is not so much what mind is like as what mind is striving to be like that constitutes spirit identification. It is not so much that man is conscious of God as that man yearns for God that results in universe ascension. What you are today is not so important as what you are becoming day by day and in eternity.

111:1.6 (1217.1) Mind is the cosmic instrument on which the human will can play the discords of destruction, or upon which this same human will can bring forth the exquisite melodies of God identification and consequent eternal survival. The Adjuster bestowed upon man is, in the last analysis, impervious to evil and incapable of sin, but mortal mind can actually be twisted, distorted, and rendered evil and ugly by the sinful machinations of a perverse and self-seeking human will. Likewise can this mind be made noble, beautiful, true, and good—actually great—in accordance with the spirit-illuminated will of a God-knowing human being.

111:1.7 (1217.2) Evolutionary mind is only fully stable and dependable when manifesting itself upon the two extremes of cosmic intellectuality—the wholly mechanized and the entirely spiritualized. Between the intellectual extremes of pure mechanical control and true spirit nature there intervenes that enormous group of evolving and ascending minds whose stability and tranquillity are dependent upon personality choice and spirit identification.

111:1.8 (1217.3) But man does not passively, slavishly, surrender his will to the Adjuster. Rather does he actively, positively, and co-operatively choose to follow the Adjuster’s leading when and as such leading consciously differs from the desires and impulses of the natural mortal mind. The Adjusters manipulate but never dominate man’s mind against his will; to the Adjusters the human will is supreme. And they so regard and respect it while they strive to achieve the spiritual goals of thought adjustment and character transformation in the almost limitless arena of the evolving human intellect.

111:1.9 (1217.4) Mind is your ship, the Adjuster is your pilot, the human will is captain. The master of the mortal vessel should have the wisdom to trust the divine pilot to guide the ascending soul into the morontia harbors of eternal survival. Only by selfishness, slothfulness, and sinfulness can the will of man reject the guidance of such a loving pilot and eventually wreck the mortal career upon the evil shoals of rejected mercy and upon the rocks of embraced sin. With your consent, this faithful pilot will safely carry you across the barriers of time and the handicaps of space to the very source of the divine mind and on beyond, even to the Paradise Father of Adjusters." UB 1955

IMOP
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I have consistently maintained that spirituality is a subjective experience. Atheists hide behind the demands of subjective proofs.

Material mind is the arena in which human personalities live, are self-conscious, make decisions, choose God or forsake him, eternalize or destroy themselves.

The Mind arena of choice:



111:1.4 (1216.5) Material evolution has provided you a life machine, your body; the Father himself has endowed you with the purest spirit reality known in the universe, your Thought Adjuster. But into your hands, subject to your own decisions, has been given mind, and it is by mind that you live or die. It is within this mind and with this mind that you make those moral decisions which enable you to achieve Adjusterlikeness, and that is Godlikeness.

111:1.5 (1216.6) Mortal mind is a temporary intellect system loaned to human beings for use during a material lifetime, and as they use this mind, they are either accepting or rejecting the potential of eternal existence. Mind is about all you have of universe reality that is subject to your will, and the soul—the morontia self—will faithfully portray the harvest of the temporal decisions which the mortal self is making. Human consciousness rests gently upon the electrochemical mechanism below and delicately touches the spirit-morontia energy system above. Of neither of these two systems is the human being ever completely conscious in his mortal life; therefore must he work in mind, of which he is conscious. And it is not so much what mind comprehends as what mind desires to comprehend that insures survival; it is not so much what mind is like as what mind is striving to be like that constitutes spirit identification. It is not so much that man is conscious of God as that man yearns for God that results in universe ascension. What you are today is not so important as what you are becoming day by day and in eternity.

111:1.6 (1217.1) Mind is the cosmic instrument on which the human will can play the discords of destruction, or upon which this same human will can bring forth the exquisite melodies of God identification and consequent eternal survival. The Adjuster bestowed upon man is, in the last analysis, impervious to evil and incapable of sin, but mortal mind can actually be twisted, distorted, and rendered evil and ugly by the sinful machinations of a perverse and self-seeking human will. Likewise can this mind be made noble, beautiful, true, and good—actually great—in accordance with the spirit-illuminated will of a God-knowing human being.

111:1.7 (1217.2) Evolutionary mind is only fully stable and dependable when manifesting itself upon the two extremes of cosmic intellectuality—the wholly mechanized and the entirely spiritualized. Between the intellectual extremes of pure mechanical control and true spirit nature there intervenes that enormous group of evolving and ascending minds whose stability and tranquillity are dependent upon personality choice and spirit identification.

111:1.8 (1217.3) But man does not passively, slavishly, surrender his will to the Adjuster. Rather does he actively, positively, and co-operatively choose to follow the Adjuster’s leading when and as such leading consciously differs from the desires and impulses of the natural mortal mind. The Adjusters manipulate but never dominate man’s mind against his will; to the Adjusters the human will is supreme. And they so regard and respect it while they strive to achieve the spiritual goals of thought adjustment and character transformation in the almost limitless arena of the evolving human intellect.

111:1.9 (1217.4) Mind is your ship, the Adjuster is your pilot, the human will is captain. The master of the mortal vessel should have the wisdom to trust the divine pilot to guide the ascending soul into the morontia harbors of eternal survival. Only by selfishness, slothfulness, and sinfulness can the will of man reject the guidance of such a loving pilot and eventually wreck the mortal career upon the evil shoals of rejected mercy and upon the rocks of embraced sin. With your consent, this faithful pilot will safely carry you across the barriers of time and the handicaps of space to the very source of the divine mind and on beyond, even to the Paradise Father of Adjusters." UB 1955

IMOP
Number one rule, quotes without sources and links are worthless in a debate. One can and should ignore claims that are just cut and paste nonsense. Second your opening statement amounted to you admitting that all that you have is confirmation bias. You would not believe a Hindu or a Muslim that only had confirmation bias, why should anyone believe you?
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
Number one rule, quotes without sources and links are worthless in a debate. One can and should ignore claims that are just cut and paste nonsense. Second your opening statement amounted to you admitting that all that you have is confirmation bias. You would not believe a Hindu or a Muslim that only had confirmation bias, why should anyone believe you?
Your claim of confirmation bias is just confirmation bias of your own. Spirituality is a subjective experience; but you have a thick head and cannot seem to understand that!? We cannot prove the God experience to you objectively, and you know that! If you ever want to find the God of subjective experience then you will need to do that on your own rather then hide behind your demands which no one can meet and run away claiming victory.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
We can provide evidence they were writing fiction.
The literary analysis is all fictive and rewrites of OT, Romulus, Homer, and other stories. Several mythical trope patterns are followed. The theology is completelya Jewish version of Persian and Greek myth.


Persian religion, Zoroastrianism had ideas Judaism did not have but picked up.


- War of good God vs Evil God/light vs dark/ God vs Satan


- Bad people burn in hell, good people wait in heaven


- A river of fire will flow over the universe burning everything up (even hell itself)


- A new better world created in it’s place


- All good people will be resurrected by God to live in that new world happily ever after



Trends in Hellenistic religion

- Syncretism: combining a foreign cult deity with Hellenistic elements. Christianity is a Jewish mystery religion.


- Henotheism: transforming / reinterpreting polytheism into monotheism. Judaism introduced monolatric concepts.


- Individualism: agricultural salvation cults retooled as personal salvation cults. Salvation of community changed into personal individual salvation in afterlife. All original agricultural salvation cults were retooled by the time Christianity arose.


- Cosmopolitianism: all races, cultures, classes admitted as equals, with fictive kinship (members are all brothers) you now “join” a religion rather than being born into it



All Mystery religions have personal savior deities


- All saviors


- all son/daughter, never the supreme God (including Mithriasm)


- all undergo a passion (struggle) patheon


- all obtain victory over death which they share with followers


- all have stories set on earth


- none actually existed


- Is Jesus the exception and based on a real Jewish teacher or is it all made up?


Baptism, Christian version is different from Jewish/John the Baptist version of baptism. Differences are the same in all mystery religions.


- symbolic sharing of saviors ordeal


- to be born again (Osiris cult)


- united into brotherhood


- to be saved in afterlife


- cleaned of sin (Bacchus, Osiris, Mithras)


- baptism for dead (Paul mentions this 1 Cor, 15: 29)



Eucharist in Mystery religions


- become one with savior


- to be united in brotherhood


- saved in afterlife


- Lords Supper


- Rememberence, flesh/blood/death, 1 Cor 11:24-26


Mystery language similar to other cults is found in many places in Mark.
Christianity is a Jewish Mystery religion, syncretic, henotheistic, individualist, universal brotherhood, savior son of God with passion and myth, baptism, Lords supper as communion for salvation, mysteries reserved for initiated.


All of this supports a fictive religious myth.
The 36 other Gospels also support this as well as the Ded Sea Scrolls and the fact that the OT uses Mesopotamian and Egyptian myth to create Genesis and Moses. Persian influence in found in Daniel and Isaiah.
These trends only happened in this area.


Justin Martyr confirmed Jesus was just like the Greek deities (Satan did that to fool Christians).

Giving us VAST reasons to conclude the additional miracles and supernatural events were part of a fictional narrative, just as they were with all other Mystery religions and the Hellenistic religions that they came from. As well as the Persian religion. All sources had supernatural events, all were myth.
They were similar to events in the NT. Revelation is almost a verbatim story from Persia. As are miracles by Greek deities, 3 day resurrection, virgin born.


Chapter 69. The devil, since he emulates the truth, has invented fables about Bacchus, Hercules, and Æsculapius



Justin: Be well assured, then, Trypho, that I am established in the knowledge of and faith in the Scriptures by those counterfeits which he who is called the devil is said to have performed among the Greeks; just as some were wrought by the Magi in Egypt, and others by the false prophets in Elijah's days. For when they tell that Bacchus, son of Jupiter, was begotten by [Jupiter's] intercourse with Semele, and that he was the discoverer of the vine; and when they relate, that being torn in pieces, and having died, he rose again, and ascended to heaven; and when they introduce wine into his mysteries, do I not perceive that [the devil] has imitated the prophecy announced by the patriarch Jacob, and recorded by Moses? And when they tell that Hercules was strong, and travelled over all the world, and was begotten by Jove of Alcmene, and ascended to heaven when he died, do I not perceive that the Scripture which speaks of Christ, 'strong as a giant to run his race,' has been in like manner imitated?

----- And when he [the
devil] brings forward Æsculapius as the raiser of the dead and healer of all diseases, may I not say that in this matter likewise he has imitated the prophecies about Christ? --------

Chapter 70. So also the mysteries of Mithras are distorted from the prophecies of Daniel and Isaiah

Justin: And when those who record the mysteries of Mithras say that he was begotten of a rock, and call the place where those who believe in him are initiated a cave, do I not perceive here that the utterance of Daniel, that a stone without hands was cut out of a great mountain, has been imitated by them, and that they have attempted likewise to imitate the whole of Isaiah's words?
And when I hear, Trypho, that Perseus was begotten of a
virgin, I understand that the deceiving serpent counterfeited also this.


HEALER OF ALL DISEASES.
Your forgot Dragon Ball Z

The God of that Cartoon was Kami Zama (or perhaps in English it has a different name)

He was Born from a Vrigen

Had 12 disciples

He was 3 persons in one

He came to earth a mortal human

Created food from “nothing” (as Jesus did with the fish)

He resurected other people, (as jesus did with Lazarus)

He died and resurrected himslef.

Wow I didn’t noticed that Dragon Ball Z was inspired in the gospels.

…. mY point is that any two stories will allways have parallels, specially if you keep things vague and ambiguous.
 

Thrillobyte

Active Member
No. While there are studies about NDE's, in no way can you say this concludes, as you stated, "The evidence for no afterlife lies in science never having been able to demonstrate anything exists beyond this life". Those studies don't have anything to do with the afterlife itself. They don't make conclusions that nothing that happened isn't real, or something like that.

Science can also measure brain activities in people who are having mystical experiences, such as those in deep states of mediation. That does not mean that the content of their experiences doesn't exist. How do you figure?
I never meant to imply that NDE studies offered proof of the afterlife. I personally believe there isn't an afterlife and that NOTHING so far proves an afterlife. I just meant that scientists have acknowledged that survival of the consciousness is a subject that science has wanted to delve into--typically they wouldn't touch anything supernatural with a 10-fot pole but there were enough anecdotes from varied people that made it an intriguing study. I don't believe they found any evidence to support the conclusion that consciousness survives death.

Not to simply say they believe there is life after death it isn't. They're stating a matter of religious faith, not make science claims. Can you not appreciate the difference, even if they seem confused about it themselves?
My objection is that Christians don't make a disclaimer stating that what they're saying is a matter of faith, not fact. But of course their no. 1 priority is to get people to believe in and accept Jesus at any cost, even honesty. I've often wondered about that. For them is it a matter of sincerely believing people's lives would be better with a millstone like Jesus around their necks or is it a case of misery loves company? I'd put my money on the latter.

I would disagree with that if that said atheist declared, "There is no God!", or that science proves there is no God. Both are matters of faith, and likewise is bad faith and bad science. ;)
Atheists don't go out of their way to say, "There is no God". It's only in reaction to Christians saying, "There is a God." If Christians kept their mouths shut and didn't try to convince everything that walks on two or four legs that they need Jesus then there wouldn't be a need for atheists say "Jesus is imaginary" would there?

But this can be as true for the atheist who has to deny the evidences of things that challenge his faith in a purely materialistic, reductionist view of reality, where they go on the attack to those who potentially undermine their faith. They are really no different in that regard.
Again, atheists don't act, they react. If Christians would just keep their gd mouths shut atheists would have no need to exclaim, "There is no God."
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Joseph Smith was writing AS IF what he was reporting was true. He described Mormon Hill, a place in NY accurately. So was Muhammad. Equally as much as the Gospels.
Same for the The Bhagavad Gita

But seriously, isn't LOTR written as if it's true? Or Romulus or any myth?


This doesn't sound like it's supposed to be true?



To run, to escape, to quiet and to pacify are yours, Inana. To rove around, to rush, to rise up, to fall down and to ...... a companion are yours, Inana. To open up roads and paths, a place of peace for the journey, a companion for the weak, are yours, Inana. To keep paths and ways in good order, to shatter earth and to make it firm are yours, Inana. To destroy, to build up, to tear out and to settle are yours, Inana. To turn a man into a woman and a woman into a man are yours, Inana. Desirability and arousal, goods and property are yours, Inana. Gain, profit, great wealth and greater wealth are yours, Inana. Gaining wealth and having success in wealth, financial loss and reduced wealth are yours, Inana. Observation (1 ms. has instead: Everything), choice, offering, inspection and approval are yours, Inana. Assigning virility, dignity, guardian angels, protective deities and cult centres are yours, Inana.
6 lines fragmentary

132-154...... mercy and pity are yours, Inana. ...... are yours, Inana. To cause the ...... heart to tremble, ...... illnesses are yours, Inana. To have a wife, ......, to love ...... are yours, Inana. To rejoice, to control (?), ...... are yours, Inana. Neglect and care, raising and bowing down are yours, Inana. To build a house, to create a woman's chamber, to possess implements, to kiss a child's lips are yours, Inana. To run, to race, to desire and to succeed are yours, Inana. To interchange the brute and the strong and the weak and the powerless is yours, Inana. To interchange the heights and valleys and the ...... and the plains (?) is yours, Inana. To give the crown, the throne and the royal sceptre is yours, Inana.
12 lines missing

155-157To diminish, to make great, to make low, to make broad, to ...... and to give a lavish supply are yours, Inana. To bestow the divine and royal rites, to carry out the appropriate instructions, slander, untruthful words, abuse, to speak inimically and to overstate are yours, Inana.

158-168The false or true response, the sneer, to commit violence, to extend derision, to speak with hostility, to cause smiling and to be humbled or important, misfortune, hardship, grief, to make happy, to clarify and to darken, agitation, terror, fear, splendour and great awesomeness in radiance, triumph, pursuit, imbasur illness, sleeplessness and restlessness, submission, gift, ...... and howling, strife, chaos, opposition, fighting and carnage, ......, to know everything, to strengthen for the distant future a nest built ......, to instill fear in the ...... desert like a ...... poisonous snake, to subdue the hostile enemy, ...... and to hate ...... are yours, Inana.

169-173To ...... the lots ......, to gather the dispersed people and restore them to their homes, to receive ......, to ...... are yours, Inana.
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174-181...... the runners, when you open your mouth, ...... turns into ....... At your glance a deaf man does not ...... to one who can hear. At your angry glare what is bright darkens; you turn midday into darkness. When the time had come you destroyed the place you had in your thoughts, you made the place tremble. Nothing can be compared to your purposes (?); who can oppose your great deeds? You are the lady of heaven and earth! Inana, in (?) the palace the unbribable judge, among the numerous people ...... decisions. The invocation of your name fills the mountains, An (?) cannot compete with your .......

182-196Your understanding ...... all the gods ....... You alone are magnificent. You are the great cow among the gods of heaven and earth, as many as there are. When you raise your eyes they pay heed to you, they wait for your word. The Anuna gods stand praying in the place where you dwell. Great awesomeness, glory ....... May your praise not cease! Where is your name not magnificent?
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Yes and Joseph smith was clearly lying and making stuff up . and we show that to be true.

If you show that the authors of the gospels where lying and making stuff up, you would have a point
 
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leroy

Well-Known Member

I don't reject the possibility of miracles.
I reject the claim that Jesus was born of a virgin, performed miracles while alive, and then was resurrected from death after three days. I don't know that that is possible, but I have no experiment, observation, or algorithm that can demonstrate its impossibility.
Ok So

1 Miracles are a possibility (as you claimed)

2 you have the testimony of well-informed people, that knew the stuff happening during that time/place that reported independently that Jesus resurrected

3 these people where honest (they weren’t making things up and lying intentionally)

What else do you need?
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
It was supported by your post. It is not my fault if you could not see it.

When you make false accusations, as you just did, you take away any burden of proof by your opponent.
It is funny (and telling) that you are intencionally finding creative ways to avoid the burden proof
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
It is funny (and telling) that you are intencionally finding creative ways to avoid the burden proof
No, when I have the burden of proof I supply it. But for you to demand it you must act as an honest interlocutor. You free up others to ignore you when you do not do what you demand of others.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Ok So

1 Miracles are a possibility (as you claimed)
He did not claim that. Why did you misinterpret his post in that manner? Remember what I said about being an honest interlocutor? That means that you need to respond to what was said. Not what you wish was said.
2 you have the testimony of well-informed people, that knew the stuff happening during that time/place that reported independently that Jesus resurrected

No we do not. Where did you get that idea from? You are putting a whole new burden of proof upon yourself.
3 these people where honest (they weren’t making things up and lying intentionally)

What else do you need?
But we know that some of them were not. That is demonstrable. Some of them clearly made things up. The author of Matthew is well known for it. And this is a claim of yours that again would put a heavy burden of proof upon you. You cannot claim to have that evidence if you cannot support it.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Ok So

1 Miracles are a possibility (as you claimed)
Pretty much anything is possible. Is it probable, is the better question.
2 you have the testimony of well-informed people, that knew the stuff happening during that time/place that reported independently that Jesus resurrected
We don't even have eyewitness testimony. We have hearsay reports. Never mind that eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable. Never mind that we don't even have that. Never mind that we don't even know the identity of the people providing these reports. Never mind that we can't even interview the people providing these so-called reports. Never mind that some of them copied large swaths of this "reporting" from other so-called witnesses. Never mind that just because someone is able to identify a location that existed at the time they existed, doesn't mean that every single other thing they say is accurate and true. You still seem to be arguing the Spider Man defence on that one.


3 these people where honest (they weren’t making things up and lying intentionally)

What else do you need?

How do you know "these people were honest" and weren't "making things up and lying intentionally?"
How do you know that they weren't just recording some story they heard from a guy who heard from a guy?
How do you know every aspect of their story is accurate?
 
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