There's Not An Iota Of Evidence The Apostles Existed

[SeekingAllTruth]

It's not about "some historians", but entire fields of critical historical scholarship that extensively utilise oral tradition that is later written down.

Just about any (secular, academic) historian who writes on early Islam or Viking culture or Aztec culture relies, to some degree, on oral tradition for example.

If you want an example of how scholars utilise oral traditions, and often disagree on them:

Harald Fairhair - Wikipedia

If you are going to start an "OMG look how stupid and irrational these dumb Christians are" thread, it's best to understand elementary aspects of the discipline in question, or you may look a bit silly

You're putting words in my mouth. I never said Christians are stupid or irrational anywhere here. If anything I think they're gullible and uneducated. And you're conflating my claim. All I said was that in the final analysis legitimate historians like Bart Ehrman do not consider oral testimony and traditions to be evidence of something. They want something tangible. Do you recognize that when someone tells a story and then it is picked up by 100 more people and passed around over generations, that's not evidence, it's hearsay?

hear·say
/ˈhirˌsā/

Learn to pronounce

noun
noun: hearsay
information received from other people that one cannot adequately substantiate.

 

[Valjean]

A tradition that says people existed is at least one iota of evidence in the historical record

Think of all the other traditional deities and personages: Prester John, Thor, King Arthur, Quetzalcoatl....
I'd take tradition with a grain of salt.

 

[PureX]

There not an iota of evidence in the historical record for the apostles even existing.

What this observation adds to or takes away from the value of the story is ... zip.

 

[Alex22]

A tradition that says people existed is at least one iota of evidence in the historical record

So the Harry Potter books is evidence of Harry Potter? Just because some book says so does not it make it reality. In fact the whole Bible is a claim, not evidence.

 

[MatthewA]

Josephus is one external account that be sourced to the existence of the Lord Jesus Christ.

However so can the dates when the apostles had written letter; sometimes anyway some people question the dating of them.

I believe all the letters were written prior to the destruction of Jerusalem.

However; many scholars do agree on some dates and what not of when letters were written.

Letter of Paul to the Romans | Summary & Facts

57 ce

It was probably composed at Corinth in about 57 ce. The epistle was addressed to the Christian church at Rome, whose congregation Paul hoped to visit for the first time on his way to Spain.

Letters of Paul to the Corinthians | Summary, Historical Context, & Facts

The First Letter of Paul to the Corinthians, probably written about 53–54 CE at Ephesus, Asia Minor, deals with problems that arose in the early years after Paul’s initial missionary visit (c. 50–51) to Corinth and his establishment there of a Christian community. The letter is valuable for its illuminations both of Paul’s thoughts and of the problems of the early church. Saddened by reports of dissension among the converts of various Apostles, Paul begins his letter with a reminder that all are to be regarded “as servants of Christ and stewards of God’s mysteries” (4:1)

So I believe that their is also evidence of the Apostles existing.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

What this observation adds to or takes away from the value of the story is ... zip.

Well, you're right there. These gospels are basically just mythology--stories.

 

[Augustus]

All I said was that in the final analysis legitimate historians like Bart Ehrman do not consider oral testimony and traditions to be evidence of something. They want something tangible.

Don't you see how the evidence I just provided shows you are clearly wrong about this though?

Historians certainly see it as evidence although they don't uncritically take it as fact.

Do you recognize that when someone tells a story and then it is picked up by 100 more people and passed around over generations, that's not evidence, it's hearsay?

Note the 2nd word:

Hearsay evidence, in a legal forum, is testimony from a witness under oath who is reciting an out-of-court statement, content of which is being offered to prove the truth of the matter asserted. In most courts, hearsay evidence is inadmissible (the "hearsay evidence rule") unless an exception to the hearsay rule applies.

 

[PureX]

Well, you're right there. These gospels are basically just mythology--stories.

"Just"? That depends on the story, and even more-so on one's chosen interpretation of it, I suppose. But in general, I would much prefer to read a mythical story than a news story, wouldn't you?

 

[robocop (actually)]

I bristle when I hear Christians say, "All the apostles were willing to die for their faith in Jesus." It has become such a cliche like the other one, "There's more evidence for Jesus than there is for Julius Caesar" and my favorite--"Jesus Christ is the most well-attested figure in history." Do these people read anything beside the Bible?

I watched a debate between Sean MacDowell and Paulogia the other day. Paulogia is a former Christian who saw the light and left Christianity. He now runs a popular skeptic website on YouTube. Sean, son of infamous apologist, Josh MacDowell wrote a book on the fate of the apostles which is the go-to source in the Christian community to prove the apostles all were martyred. I was floored when MacDowell said and this is a quote at 17:31 of the video below:

MacDowell: "For my case it doesn't even matter that any of them died actually as martyrs. I had this conversation with William lane Craig and he said, 'You don't have to prove any of them died as martyrs'.

Huh?

The question is "Did the apostles die as martyrs" and MacDowell and Craig are saying they don't have to prove the apostles died as martyrs--all they have to do is demonstrate that it's plausible that the apostles could have died as martyrs given the fact that they were apostles of Jesus and believed in him. Did we just warp to another universe where up is down and black is white?????????

Back to reality. Let's start with this:

There not an iota of evidence in the historical record for the apostles even existing.

Nine of them are not even mentioned by name in the Bible post-gospels. Not a single historian mentions them.

Justine Martyr doesn't even mention the nine (excluding Peter, John, and James). For all intents and purposes the apostles were never real--just figments of the gospel writers' imaginations.

And yet here's MacDowell writing a book making a case they died as martyrs for their faith but then saying, "I don't have to prove they died as martyrs for their faith."

Does 2 + 2 equal 22 in the world of Christianity?

My Google search said there was some evidence of some of them.

 

[Augustus]

Think of all the other traditional deities and personages: Prester John, Thor, King Arthur, Quetzalcoatl....
I'd take tradition with a grain of salt.

Historians certainly do treat it critically.

Treating it critically doesn't mean rejecting it out of hand though.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Don't you see how the evidence I just provided shows you are clearly wrong about this though?

Historians certainly see it as evidence although they don't uncritically take it as fact.



Note the 2nd word:

Hearsay evidence, in a legal forum, is testimony from a witness under oath who is reciting an out-of-court statement, content of which is being offered to prove the truth of the matter asserted. In most courts, hearsay evidence is inadmissible (the "hearsay evidence rule") unless an exception to the hearsay rule applies.

You're splitting hairs on the definition of evidence. If you want to call something that doesn't support a claim "Evidence" then by all means have at it. All I'm saying is that there is no recorded evidence of the apostles having existed. Is that a fair statement?

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

My Google search said there was some evidence of some of them.

I'd love to see it. Please produce it.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

"Just"? That depends on the story, and even more-so on one's chosen interpretation of it, I suppose. But in general, I would much prefer to read a mythical story than a news story, wouldn't you?

Yes, I would. News today is horrible.

 

[MatthewA]

My Google search said there was some evidence of some of them.

I like how you have a marlboro in your photo ; that is what that monster was called on Final fantasy wasnt it?

 

[robocop (actually)]

I like how you have a marlboro in your photo ; that is what that monster was called on Final fantasy wasnt it?

It was final fantasy. It was a naocho.

 

[MatthewA]

Yes, I would. News today is horrible.

What did you hear on the news? SAT

 

[Colt]

Isn`t it the message that is most important within religious practice and not who said what?

Exactly! One can do what Jesus did and discover God. SeekingAllTruth is singularly obsessed with discrediting Jesus as a historical figure. Billions and billions of humans have lived with no documentation of their existence.

Are there any credible historians covering the life of SeekingAllTruth??????

 

[Augustus]

So the Harry Potter books is evidence of Harry Potter? Just because some book says so does not it make it reality. In fact the whole Bible is a claim, not evidence.

Acknowledged fiction is not oral tradition.

Also evidence is not the same as proof.

No one advocates uncritically assuming it is true.

iirc you are a Greek Pagan, in which case I'd think you'd have a higher opinion on oral tradition given its role in our understanding of ancient Greek culture.

 

[MatthewA]

Historians certainly do treat it critically.

Treating it critically doesn't mean rejecting it out of hand though.

I realize that your photo seems like a skeleton reaper fixing axe a man; but upon first glance it seemed like a skeleton reaper golfing with the scythe.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Exactly! One can do what Jesus did and discover God. SeekingAllTruth is singularly obsessed with discrediting Jesus as a historical figure. Billions and billions of humans have lived with no documentation of their existence.

Are there any credible historians covering the life of SeekingAllTruth??????

Jesus was one of the greatest spiritual teachers to ever live.