These answers to the problem of evil are unsatisfactory to me

[Trailblazer]

False. You explicitly stated it is about not being able to be held accountable.
That is about might, not about knowledge.

God not being able to be held accountable is not about might. It is about finding God to hold Him accountable.
Last I checked, I could not locate God with my GPS tracking device. Maybe you've got a better GPS.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Do we humans cause/allow suffering when we beget children?
We know it is indisputable that our children will suffer in this world, and they will bring suffering to other people.
However, we keep having children, when we could just choose not to have them. Are all parents evil?

I have two daughters, already grown up and independent. I begot them because I thought that, all in all, human life is more good than evil, more happiness than suffering.
And I know that, in order to be happy adults, my daughters had to go to painful learning experiences... which include causing pain to others. Yet, I do not regard myself as evil.

 

[blü 2]

Evil still is a problem weather or not God Is real.

It's not a word I'd usually choose in a real-world context because of its usage within religion to mean 'offensive to God' ─ but yes, very bad things and people are a problem in reality.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

We were discussing the concept of forgiveness not being compatible with justice.

And it isn't.

If I get a speeding ticket and the judge "forgives" me, then I don't have to pay the ticket.
Meaning justice was suspended.

Justice is not just about punishment in the court of mankind .. why should it be in G-d's eyes?

Justice in this context means that remedial action is taken against wrongdoings.
This can take the form of punishment or reimbursement or both or similar. In short, that there are consequences to wrongdoings in proportion to the crime.

To "forgive" the wrongdoing means that no consequences are attached to the wrongdoing.
Then it's like a pardon.


If there is no difference between a wrongdoing being forgiven vs not being forgiven, then the entire concept of forgiveness is completely meaningless.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

God not being able to be held accountable is not about might.

Off course it is.

It is about finding God to hold Him accountable.
Last I checked, I could not locate God with my GPS tracking device. Maybe you've got a better GPS.

Yeah, all-powerful entities are hard to find if they don't want to be located.


(non-existing entities are also quite hard to find btw )

 

[muhammad_isa]

If I get a speeding ticket and the judge "forgives" me, then I don't have to pay the ticket.
Meaning justice was suspended.


Justice in this context means that remedial action is taken against wrongdoings.
This can take the form of punishment or reimbursement or both or similar. In short, that there are consequences to wrongdoings in proportion to the crime.

..but what about the concept of the victim forgiving the perpetrator of a crime?
Does that mean that the victim does not believe that people should be held to account? No.

It makes a difference whether a person shows remorse, or is indifferent etc.
In fact, the concepts of forgiveness and justice when applied to G-d, are more about the state of
our own souls, and not "what G-d thinks" .. but I'm probably wasting my time trying to explain,
because some people don't want to understand, in any case.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

..but what about the concept of the victim forgiving the perpetrator of a crime?

What about it?

Does that mean that the victim does not believe that people should be held to account? No.

I think it does, unless as I said that the forgiveness actually doesn't mean anything.

Say I get into a fight with some guy and he breaks my arm. If I forgive him, that to me would mean that I won't press charges.
What would it mean if I "forgive" the guy, while pressing charges and holding him completely accountable for any and all damages?

What would be the difference between forgiving him and not forgiving him, if I press charges and hold him accountable for any and all damages either way?

It makes a difference whether a person shows remorse, or is indifferent etc.
In fact, the concepts of forgiveness and justice when applied to G-d, are more about the state of
our own souls, and not "what G-d thinks" ..

What does that mean?

but I'm probably wasting my time trying to explain,
because some people don't want to understand, in any case.

Right back at ya.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I think it does, unless as I said that the forgiveness actually doesn't mean anything.

Oh, it means something all right..

G-d forgives whomsoever He wills, and punishes whomsoever He wills .. bearing in mind, that
G-d is not a person, as such. He is of infinite nature. He is aware of what is in our minds.

We only get coming to us what we deserve .. and an unrepentant soul does not deserve
the same as a repentant one. It is not just about the crime. We all commit crimes, of varying degrees.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Oh, it means something all right..

G-d forgives whomsoever He wills, and punishes whomsoever He wills ..

Eum.... doesn't that sentence imply that if you are forgiven, you aren't punished... just like I said?

bearing in mind, that
G-d is not a person, as such. He is of infinite nature. He is aware of what is in our minds.

We only get coming to us what we deserve .. and an unrepentant soul does not deserve
the same as a repentant one. It is not just about the crime. We all commit crimes, of varying degrees.

That doesn't actually matter to the point I made, being that forgiveness is the suspension of justice.

Justice = punishment in proportion to the crime
Forgiveness for the crime = you are off the hook, thus no punishment

Your green sentence above seems to confirm this point.

The reason for forgiveness doesn't matter to the point.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Justice = punishment in proportion to the crime
Forgiveness for the crime = you are off the hook, thus no punishment

Take it or leave it .. I already explained. Your idea of justice is clearly different from mine.
..and of everybody else's, for that matter.
eg. life imprisonment and parole

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Take it or leave it .. I already explained. Your idea of justice is clearly different from mine.
..and of everybody else's, for that matter.
eg. life imprisonment and parole

I note you conveniently snipped out the relevant part of the post.

Just answer the question:

G-d forgives whomsoever He wills, and punishes whomsoever He wills ..

Does this or does this not imply that if god forgives, no punishment is given?


Also, if you are going to say that "justice" doesn't mean that one has to deal with consequences (punishment in one form or another) that are proportionate to the wrongdoings, then I have no clue what you are talking about when you use the word.

 

[muhammad_isa]

G-d forgives whomsoever He wills, and punishes whomsoever He wills ..

Does this or does this not imply that if god forgives, no punishment is given?

Who knows?
..it's all about the balance of good and bad deeds in the end .. and our intentions.
Much like in this life, we might "get away with it", or we might not.

However, things have a habit of catching up with us.
We can visualize the life hereafter as an extension of this one .. but our "record" can no longer be hidden.

Also, if you are going to say that "justice" doesn't mean that one has to deal with consequences (punishment in one form or another) that are proportionate to the wrongdoings, then I have no clue what you are talking about when you use the word.

G-d is the best of all judges .. we get what we deserve .. punishment is in effect self-inflicted.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Who knows?
..it's all about the balance of good and bad deeds in the end .. and our intentions.
Much like in this life, we might "get away with it", or we might not.

However, things have a habit of catching up with us.
We can visualize the life hereafter as an extension of this one .. but our "record" can no longer be hidden.


G-d is the best of all judges .. we get what we deserve .. punishment is in effect self-inflicted.

You forgot to answer the question.

Or is your answer that you don't know?
Then why did you post the green quote, if you don't understand what it says?

 

[muhammad_isa]

..why did you post the green quote, if you don't understand what it says?

I understand what it says, but you don't seem to understand what I'm saying.
You might be forgiven or you might not .. it's a similar scenario in this life.

eg. you were caught with class B drugs, and you were given a caution by the police

You might have received a prison sentence.

 

[Trailblazer]

Off course it is.

Why? What is the logical connection between being all powerful and not being accountable?

Accountability is about responsibility....
God is not accountable to anyone because there is nobody who God is responsible to account to.

Yeah, all-powerful entities are hard to find if they don't want to be located.

Any entities who don't want to be located are hard to find. Power has nothing to do with it.
God is the most manifest of the manifest and the most hidden of the hidden.

Manifest Yet Hidden

One of the great bounties of living in this age is the wealth of prayers that the three central figures of the Baha’i Faith — the Bab, Baha’u’llah, and Abdu’l...

bahaiteachings.org

(non-existing entities are also quite hard to find btw )

Non-existing entities cannot be found because they do not exist...
God can be found in His Manifestation if one looks hard enough.

 

[YellowFeather]

Uhhh .. no !

You do not know who will be successful in the next life, and who will fail.

It may be that you will worship G-d all your life, but at the last few weeks of it, you will curse G-d
and turn away.
..or it may be that a person will have no care for righteousness all of their life, but at the last few weeks of it, they will sincerely repent and it will be accepted.

Remember the story of the prodigal son?

This world is an illusion, and the most important thing is our intention .. only G-d knows if
our deeds are sincerely for Him, or for some worldly reason.

If one does not obey God now, he will not have another life. We have to obey God now and show God we can be trusted and follow his rules and not fall into the worlds temptations that lead to death forever. Only those who have the true knowledge of God know the truth of God and his plans for only those who obey him now. Even Jesus Says only a few will be saved. Luke 13:23

 

[YellowFeather]

Why did humans choose evil over good and why did God just allow it ?

When God wanted to see if Man could truly obey him. So God put a tree of knowledge of good and evil there and told Adam and Eve not to eat from it or they would die. There was also a Serpent there that encouraged Eve to eat from the tree. He told her if she ate from the tree she would be like gods knowing good and evil. So she chose to follow the serpent and eat from the tree and gave Adam a bit as well. Then there eyes were both open to good and evil. So God then knew that man needed more understanding of Gods rules and kicked them out of the garden of eden to understand that he is to be obeyed. Everything man does that is not of God always fails and shows us that God is the only one to obey. God allows man to follow in his own way to prove to man that without God man has no life. Only those who Repent of their Sins and change and obey God will be saved. Read Genesis chapter 3

 

[Trailblazer]

If one does not obey God now, he will not have another life. We have to obey God now and show God we can be trusted and follow his rules and not fall into the worlds temptations that lead to death forever. Only those who have the true knowledge of God know the truth of God and his plans for only those who obey him now. Even Jesus Says only a few will be saved. Luke 13:23

Not all believers obey God perfectly so that is not a criteria for who has eternal life.
The souls of people who are distant from God will not have eternal life; although their soul will continue to exist in the spiritual world after their physical body dies they will be “as dead” compared to those souls who are close to God.

“In the same way, the souls who are veiled from God, although they exist in this world and in the world after death, are, in comparison with the holy existence of the children of the Kingdom of God, nonexisting and separated from God.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 243

 

[McBell]

When God wanted to see if Man could truly obey him. So God put a tree of knowledge of good and evil there and told Adam and Eve not to eat from it or they would die. There was also a Serpent there that encouraged Eve to eat from the tree. He told her if she ate from the tree she would be like gods knowing good and evil. So she chose to follow the serpent and eat from the tree and gave Adam a bit as well. Then there eyes were both open to good and evil. So God then knew that man needed more understanding of Gods rules and kicked them out of the garden of eden to understand that he is to be obeyed. Everything man does that is not of God always fails and shows us that God is the only one to obey. God allows man to follow in his own way to prove to man that without God man has no life. Only those who Repent of their Sins and change and obey God will be saved. Read Genesis chapter 3

Why would an all knowing entity need to see if man would truly obey them?
I mean, if the entity is all knowing, would they not already know?

 

[ChieftheCef]

When you say something is limited/imperfect you must have some idea of limitless/perfect. Where is this idea from?

Say what you want to say.

"My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust.

There are other reasons not to believe in God(s). But it is right, an omnipotent god, who can make anything, is unjust. However a limited being, like the Sumerians and many other polytheists believed, would not be, because he has certain limits, like that we can't all live forever or else too many resources would be taken up. Jesus says there would be a bunch of immortal people but not only would there be boulders no matter where you went he also said his disciples wouldn't die, and the proud christian declares they died for him!

The Bible states Mathew 16:28 "Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." “

Besides this Jesus had to die to forgive sins, right? No! According to his divinely inspired word.

Mark 2:5 “When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, ‘Son, your sins are forgiven.’“

Sins were forgiven before Jesus died nullifying the idea that Jesus had to die to forgive sins.

But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust? If the whole show was bad and senseless from A to Z, so to speak, why did I, who was supposed to be part of the show, find myself in such a violent reaction against it?... Of course I could have given up my idea of justice by saying it was nothing but a private idea of my own. But if i did that, then my argument against God collapsed too--for the argument depended on saying the world was really unjust, not simply that it did not happen to please my fancies. Thus, in the very act of trying to prove that God did not exist - in other words, that the whole of reality was senseless - I found I was forced to assume that one part of reality - namely my idea of justice - was full of sense. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never have known it was dark. Dark would be without meaning." (C. S. Lewis)

God does not exist. He was a lie by a rogue pharaoh, Akhenaten, to take away the balance of power in Ancient Egypt during the Amarna period. Quite like Trump now, not to stir that pot.

This is why panentheistic polytheism is true. It's the new deism. The sun, earth, moon, stars, verbs etc all exist. They all cocreates reality with the great Monality, nothingness, which includes everything as everything is made of mostly nothing and what something there is is contorted nothingness. And all these stars, moons, humans, animals, planets, geology cosmology is made of the same stuff, nothing. Gods compose God, which the polytheist, counter to what bad actors had made seem different, was the Egyptian religion. Atum, the supreme god was composed by the gods, they were his attributes. We are all the cells of the living god, reality.