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These answers to the problem of evil are unsatisfactory to me

Massimo2002

Active Member
Before man disobeyed God, Man only knew righteous, everything around him was holy. When man disobeyed God and ate from the tree of life, the mind then had the knowledge of good and evil. Meaning man had the knowledge of knowing what was wrong to do. Then God had to put man to the full test to let him understand that God was the one to be obeyed. Only them that fall away from evil and come back to God and obey God will be obeyed. We live in a world of temptations It is up to the individual to say NO to them and follow God not the world. Luke 8:13 They on the rock are which , when they hear receive the word of joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of NO TEMPTATION fall away.
Why did humans choose evil over good and why did God just allow it ?
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member

Seems pretty obvious.
Benevolence deals with doing good. How can you be benevolent if you can't tell good from bad?

God does not have to be human in order to be associated with qualities that humans have. After all, humans can have those qualities because they are made in the image of God, so those qualities like benevolence, justice, and love are attributes of God that first came from God.

You should make up your mind. You just said that god is not a moral agent. So if humans are moral agents, then that is at least one aspect in which they are definitely not made in "god's image", since god's image doesn't include moral agency in your view....

In my belief, God does not have to 'discern' right from wrong Since God is all-knowing, God simply KNOWS what is right and what is wrong human behavior.

Then god is a moral agent. :shrug:
Again, make up your mind.

Either she can tell right from wrong or she can't.

Again, God knows what is right and wrong because God is all-knowing, but that does not mean God is accountable to humans.

Yeah, neither is Kim Yung Un.
So in your view, that makes Kim Yung Un not a moral agent.

You seem to be confusing being able to hold someone accountable for actions with being accountable for actions, full stop.

North Koreans are not able to hold Kim accountable for his actions. As in: he will get away with anything because his power makes him untouchable.
But that doesn't prevent anyone from making moral judgements concerning his actions.

The same goes for your god.
Since she know what is right and what is wrong, we are very able to make moral judgements about her behavior.
Just because her power makes it impossible for us to hold her accountable, doesn't make her escape moral evaluation / judgement.

God is not accountable to anyone because God is over all of creation.

Kim Yung Un isn't accountable to anyone either.

Humans have the ability to discern right from wrong

So does Kim Yung Un. So does God (as per your own acknowledgement)

so they are accountable to each other as part of society, and they are accountable to God if they believe in that kind of God.

As in: they are free game in moral evaluation by others. Whether they CAN be held accountable or not, depends on their hierarchical position in seats of power.
Again: good luck holding Kim Yung Un accountable for, say, starving his own citizens.

I did not say that God lacks the ability to discern right from wrong.

You said she is not a moral agent. Moral agents are agents that are able to discern right from wrong.

I said that God does not have to 'discern' that since God knows that as part of His nature since God is all-knowing.

That makes no sense.
Being all-knowing would mean he knows right from wrong and can identify which is which. That means she's able to discern right from wrong. As in: tell which is which. :shrug:

I know you don't believe in God, but when you 'refer to God' and compare God to a person and expect God to act like a person that is illogical.
Moral agents aren't necessarily persons.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
G-d gave us the laws for our benefit .. so that we may prosper, and live in peace.
It's strange then that every society that lives according to supposed "god given" laws, turns out to be a hellhole of oppression, misery and suffering.


Why are the best places to live (= highest societal health, highest happiness indexes, etc) countries where gods and religions have been completely kicked out of politics with purely secular constitutions?
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
It's strange then that every society that lives according to supposed "god given" laws, turns out to be a hellhole of oppression, misery and suffering..
If it were true ( and that is highly questionable ), I wouldn't be surprised.
The closer we get to truth, the more devils will oppose it.

Why are the best places to live (= highest societal health, highest happiness indexes, etc) countries where gods and religions have been completely kicked out of politics with purely secular constitutions?
As I say, your power and wealth gives you a false sense of security. You seem to forget that war has no clear winners and losers. The political map is always being redrawn.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
If it were true ( and that is highly questionable ), I wouldn't be surprised.
The closer we get to truth, the more devils will oppose it.

That makes no sense.
You claimed that god's laws are given for humans to be happy and prosper.
But whenever we see societies that implement what they think are god's laws, we only see it result in the opposite.
Conversely, when DO we see happiness and prosperity go up? When we build societies that are purely secular and blatantly ignore "god's laws".

As I say, your power and wealth gives you a false sense of security. You seem to forget that war has no clear winners and losers. The political map is always being redrawn.

That has nothing at all to do with what I said.

You live in the UK. Why don't you move to some Shariah ruled country of your choice? Or some other type of islamic theocracy?
According to your own statements here, life should be better then then in the godless secular UK, right?
So why don't you?


It's a genuine question.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
You live in the UK. Why don't you move to some Shariah ruled country of your choice?
Why? I have a British passport, and no other.
That is what I have been "dealt" .

G-d is Lord of the East, and Lord of the West.
I have no interest in emigrating..

There are Christians and Muslims all over the world.
It's you who bring politics in to the discussion.
You sound like the type of person that when a democracy votes for "your lot", you are happy,
but if they vote for "my lot", you want to kick them out. :rolleyes:

Hypocrisy .. and we are seeing it in major western countries, these days.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member

To live a better life?

I have a British passport, and no other.
That is what I have been "dealt" .

So? People move to other countries every day, thinking life will be better in that other location.

G-d is Lord of the East, and Lord of the West.
I have no interest in emigrating..

There are Christians and Muslims all over the world.
It's you who bring politics in to the discussion.

I'm not bringing politics in. I'm responding to your statements about how societies organized around god's laws are supposedly better for humans as opposed to societies that aren't. And since you are a muslim, I think it's safe to say that a secular democracy is not exactly a country that is organized around islamic laws, right?

You sound like the type of person that when a democracy votes for "your lot", you are happy,
but if they vote for "my lot", you want to kick them out. :rolleyes:

Not at all. I'm just challenging your statement.
Although I admit that I pretty much expected you to draw this victim card as opposed to actually raising up to the challenge.

Half my family is muslim, btw.


Hypocrisy .. and we are seeing it in major western countries, these days.

Says the guy sitting in a comfy secular home while claiming how wonderful it would be to live in a country organized around "god's laws", yet not a hair on his head dreams of moving to one.

But *I* am the hypocrite. Uhu.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
I'm responding to your statements about how societies organized around god's laws are supposedly better for humans as opposed to societies that aren't..
I never said that..
I said: "G-d gave us the laws for our benefit .. so that we may prosper, and live in peace."

..and so you just cite current affairs, to show that it is not true.
That's not proof .. that only shows the current state of affairs in the world.

It's like citing Catholicism as in error, because there is trouble in Ireland.
Patently false.

Says the guy sitting in a comfy secular home while claiming how wonderful it would be to live in a country organized around "god's laws"..
I never said anything of the sort .. as usual, you are full of assumptions, and no facts. :)
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
Well I do.
Obviously. :)
Take the commandment "thou shall not commit murder" .. G-d cannot be murdered, so it is
quite obviously for our benefit.
It is, but it doesn't exclude being for God's benefit too. There might be some benefit that accrues to god from our refraining from murder that is not related to his being "unmurderable".
Furthermore, G-d gives life (birth), and takes life (death), so it is absurd to suggest that G-d
should only give life but not take it .. we'd all be in a right mess. o_O
If you are talking about natural death (say from old age or disease) that is an essential part of living in a limited space with limited resources. I'm not sure how that relates to murder though.
..and of course .. dead or alive refers to this worldly life, and not to a hidden dimension which
belongs to G-d.
Which is an assertion that is completely beyond our ability to verify or investigate. And that sums up the futility of all these discussions, which can only operate based on we skeptics pointing out internal inconsistencies in religious dogma and theists coming up with possible explanations that might validate the dogma. It's all like blind people in a dark cellar discussing what the outside world is like. It can be fun of course.
G-d gave us the laws for our benefit .. so that we may prosper, and live in peace.
Yet another assertion.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Seems pretty obvious.
Benevolence deals with doing good. How can you be benevolent if you can't tell good from bad?
God does not have to tell good from bad because God is all knowing, so God already knows what is good and what is bad.
You should make up your mind. You just said that god is not a moral agent. So if humans are moral agents, then that is at least one aspect in which they are definitely not made in "god's image", since god's image doesn't include moral agency in your view....
That humans are made in God's image only means that humans have the capacity to reflect 'certain attributes' of God. It does not mean we are a mirror image of God.

There are attributes that God has that humans do not have. Only God is Sovereign, Eternal, Holy, All-Powerful, All-Knowing, All-Wise, Infallible, Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, and Immaterial, and nobody except God can have those attributes. Some of God's other attributes are Good, Loving, Gracious, Merciful, Just, Righteous, Forgiving, Patient. Humans have the 'potential' to reflect these attributes of God and we reflect them to a greater of lesser degree, depending upon how spiritual we are.
Then god is a moral agent. :shrug:
Again, make up your mind.

Either she can tell right from wrong or she can't.
I already made up my mind. I said that God is not a moral agent.
The reason God is not a moral agent is because God is not accountable to anyone to act in any certain way.
Only humans are accountable to other humans.
Yeah, neither is Kim Yung Un.
So in your view, that makes Kim Yung Un not a moral agent.

You seem to be confusing being able to hold someone accountable for actions with being accountable for actions, full stop.

North Koreans are not able to hold Kim accountable for his actions. As in: he will get away with anything because his power makes him untouchable.
But that doesn't prevent anyone from making moral judgements concerning his actions.
Whether the North Koreans can hold him accountable or not, Kim Yung Un can discern right from wrong and he is a person, so he is accountable, and he a moral agent.
The same goes for your god.
Since she know what is right and what is wrong, we are very able to make moral judgements about her behavior.
Just because her power makes it impossible for us to hold her accountable, doesn't make her escape moral evaluation / judgement.
You can evaluate and judge God all you want to, but what are you evaluating and judging? How do you think you can know what God did or is doing at any time?

Moreover, judging God is illogical since you cannot know more than God regarding what is right and wrong since you are not all-knowing.
You'd have to be more than all-knowing to know more than God, which is logically impossible.
You said she is not a moral agent. Moral agents are agents that are able to discern right from wrong.
But that does not mean that God is a moral agent. God is not a moral agent is because God is not accountable to anyone to act in any certain way.
That makes no sense.
Being all-knowing would mean he knows right from wrong and can identify which is which. That means she's able to discern right from wrong. As in: tell which is which. :shrug:
Yes, God can discern right and wrong human behavior. If not, how could God judge humans?
Moral agents aren't necessarily persons.
Yes they are persons, according to the dictionary definitions.
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
How in the world would anyone believe they know why God "just allow" anything? You hav to be God to know that.

All these discussions are necessarily set within two bounds. What a particular religion says about God, and what we observe about the world as we know it.

So yes, the idea of saying that I (or anyone) know that God does or thinks or feels anything is ridiculous. That's fine so long as we admit that it also applies to all the things that (some) theists say they "know" about God, like being loving, just, powerful, caring about my sex life and so on.

All a skeptic can do is to point out things that fall within the above bounds, which might be to suggest an internal contradiction or to use something we do know as possible evidence against a theist assertion.
 
Simplified, our universe works on cause and effect. God is the first cause, and Creation the first effect.

Combine a positive action with a negative action/intent and some level of evil is the effect. Now that evil has been effected, it needs to be met with a positive action/intent in order to counter/neutralize the suffering. Life is a balance that humankind, in the mass, controls.

Everything God created is good, and remains good when met with positive action/intent. Even when two goods come together, what is created can easily be preceived as a negative if the human mind does not view it with positive action/intent. Natural occurrences such as thunderstorms, which can cause devastation, is certainly not "evil."

Man "learned" or discovered negative intents and developed the actions that takes a cause and effect to an evil.

Jesus taught to enrich the world with positive intent/action, by love. Meet potential evil with concrete love and get ahead of the evil effect.

An African Proverb:
A child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth.


On this so-called "problem of evil", we must humbly acknowledge that we don't have all the answers. As finite human beings, our understanding is limited compared to God's infinite wisdom. We should be cautious about claiming to fully comprehend God's reasons for allowing evil and suffering.

That said, our faith and reason can provide some helpful perspectives:

1. God gave humans free will, which allows for the possibility of evil choices. Much suffering stems from human sin and selfishness.

2. Some challenges and hardships can help us grow in character, compassion, and reliance on God. As Scripture says, suffering can produce perseverance and hope (Romans 5:3-5).

3. This fallen world is not God's ultimate plan. He promises to one day establish a new heaven and earth without pain or evil (Revelation 21:4).

4. Through Jesus Christ, God entered into our suffering. He understands our pain and offers us comfort and strength.

5. God can bring good even out of evil circumstances, as we see in the story of Joseph in Genesis.

We trust in God's goodness and love, even when we don't understand. We're called to respond to evil and suffering with faith, hope, and loving action to help those in need.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member

Why Does God Allow the Suffering of the Innocent?​

Josephus, 1/1/2020
I read on the link, but just looking at your question I don't know what you mean by 'the innocent'? Do you mean people who are not guilty of anything, so they don't deserve to suffer? I would say that includes everyone unless they are a criminal.

So, if God did not 'allow' the suffering of all those people that would mean God would have to intervene in this world and somehow stop that suffering, which would interfere with human free will. God would be there at every turn, altering the choices of humans. You might then say that all the suffering we endure does not come to us by our own choices, such as accidents, injuries, and diseases, but if God prevented all of those God would still be meddling with someone's choices or in the natural order in the world.

So, I think that the appropriate question is this: Why should God intervene to stop suffering?
I cannot come up with any logical answer to that question. Because some people don't 'like' suffering is not a logical reason for God to eliminate it. Moreover, suffering must exist for a purpose, and God would be the one to know hat that purpose better than any human, since God created the world.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
So yes, the idea of saying that I (or anyone) know that God does or thinks or feels anything is ridiculous. That's fine so long as we admit that it also applies to all the things that (some) theists say they "know" about God, like being loving, just, powerful, caring about my sex life and so on.
Let's say you are a believe in a particular scripture. You know only what that says. Loving, all powerful, all knowing, etc. You don't know what it doesn't say about God.

Thinking you could know is by itself thinking you are God.

Why didn't God do that, why couldn't God do this, is to ask yourself only, not God. One could only make assumptions based on conjecture.
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
Let's say you are a believe in a particular scripture. You know only what that says. Loving, all powerful, all knowing, etc. You don't know what it doesn't say about God.

Thinking you could know is by itself thinking you are God.

Why didn't God do that, why couldn't God do this, is to ask yourself only, not God. One could only make assumptions based on conjecture.

Scriptures were written by men who had the same problem, that is they couldn't really know if what they were writing was "conjecture".

There's no solid foundation for any of it.
 
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