Massimo2002
Active Member
Why did humans choose evil over good and why did God just allow it ?
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These answers to the problem of evil are unsatisfactory to me
- Thread starter Massimo2002
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- christianity
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
Seems pretty obvious.
Benevolence deals with doing good. How can you be benevolent if you can't tell good from bad?
You should make up your mind. You just said that god is not a moral agent. So if humans are moral agents, then that is at least one aspect in which they are definitely not made in "god's image", since god's image doesn't include moral agency in your view....
Then god is a moral agent.
Again, make up your mind.
Either she can tell right from wrong or she can't.
Yeah, neither is Kim Yung Un.
So in your view, that makes Kim Yung Un not a moral agent.
You seem to be confusing being able to hold someone accountable for actions with being accountable for actions, full stop.
North Koreans are not able to hold Kim accountable for his actions. As in: he will get away with anything because his power makes him untouchable.
But that doesn't prevent anyone from making moral judgements concerning his actions.
The same goes for your god.
Since she know what is right and what is wrong, we are very able to make moral judgements about her behavior.
Just because her power makes it impossible for us to hold her accountable, doesn't make her escape moral evaluation / judgement.
Kim Yung Un isn't accountable to anyone either.
So does Kim Yung Un. So does God (as per your own acknowledgement)
As in: they are free game in moral evaluation by others. Whether they CAN be held accountable or not, depends on their hierarchical position in seats of power.
Again: good luck holding Kim Yung Un accountable for, say, starving his own citizens.
You said she is not a moral agent. Moral agents are agents that are able to discern right from wrong.
That makes no sense.
Being all-knowing would mean he knows right from wrong and can identify which is which. That means she's able to discern right from wrong. As in: tell which is which.
Moral agents aren't necessarily persons.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
It's strange then that every society that lives according to supposed "god given" laws, turns out to be a hellhole of oppression, misery and suffering.
Why are the best places to live (= highest societal health, highest happiness indexes, etc) countries where gods and religions have been completely kicked out of politics with purely secular constitutions?
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
..did?
It's in their nature .. it's part of the test for us, that we may choose our own desires instead
of treading a righteous path. We want everything 'now', and are impatient.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
If it were true ( and that is highly questionable ), I wouldn't be surprised.
The closer we get to truth, the more devils will oppose it.
As I say, your power and wealth gives you a false sense of security. You seem to forget that war has no clear winners and losers. The political map is always being redrawn.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
That makes no sense.
You claimed that god's laws are given for humans to be happy and prosper.
But whenever we see societies that implement what they think are god's laws, we only see it result in the opposite.
Conversely, when DO we see happiness and prosperity go up? When we build societies that are purely secular and blatantly ignore "god's laws".
That has nothing at all to do with what I said.
You live in the UK. Why don't you move to some Shariah ruled country of your choice? Or some other type of islamic theocracy?
According to your own statements here, life should be better then then in the godless secular UK, right?
So why don't you?
It's a genuine question.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
Why? I have a British passport, and no other.
That is what I have been "dealt" .
G-d is Lord of the East, and Lord of the West.
I have no interest in emigrating..
There are Christians and Muslims all over the world.
It's you who bring politics in to the discussion.
You sound like the type of person that when a democracy votes for "your lot", you are happy,
but if they vote for "my lot", you want to kick them out.
Hypocrisy .. and we are seeing it in major western countries, these days.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
To live a better life?
So? People move to other countries every day, thinking life will be better in that other location.
I'm not bringing politics in. I'm responding to your statements about how societies organized around god's laws are supposedly better for humans as opposed to societies that aren't. And since you are a muslim, I think it's safe to say that a secular democracy is not exactly a country that is organized around islamic laws, right?
You sound like the type of person that when a democracy votes for "your lot", you are happy,
but if they vote for "my lot", you want to kick them out.
Not at all. I'm just challenging your statement.
Although I admit that I pretty much expected you to draw this victim card as opposed to actually raising up to the challenge.
Half my family is muslim, btw.
Says the guy sitting in a comfy secular home while claiming how wonderful it would be to live in a country organized around "god's laws", yet not a hair on his head dreams of moving to one.
But *I* am the hypocrite. Uhu.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
I never said that..
I said: "G-d gave us the laws for our benefit .. so that we may prosper, and live in peace."
..and so you just cite current affairs, to show that it is not true.
That's not proof .. that only shows the current state of affairs in the world.
It's like citing Catholicism as in error, because there is trouble in Ireland.
Patently false.
I never said anything of the sort .. as usual, you are full of assumptions, and no facts.
Alien826
No religious beliefs
Obviously.
It is, but it doesn't exclude being for God's benefit too. There might be some benefit that accrues to god from our refraining from murder that is not related to his being "unmurderable".
If you are talking about natural death (say from old age or disease) that is an essential part of living in a limited space with limited resources. I'm not sure how that relates to murder though.Furthermore, G-d gives life (birth), and takes life (death), so it is absurd to suggest that G-d
should only give life but not take it .. we'd all be in a right mess.
Which is an assertion that is completely beyond our ability to verify or investigate. And that sums up the futility of all these discussions, which can only operate based on we skeptics pointing out internal inconsistencies in religious dogma and theists coming up with possible explanations that might validate the dogma. It's all like blind people in a dark cellar discussing what the outside world is like. It can be fun of course.
Yet another assertion.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
Well, if there is no god, there is no discussion .. so bye bye.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
God does not have to tell good from bad because God is all knowing, so God already knows what is good and what is bad.
That humans are made in God's image only means that humans have the capacity to reflect 'certain attributes' of God. It does not mean we are a mirror image of God.
There are attributes that God has that humans do not have. Only God is Sovereign, Eternal, Holy, All-Powerful, All-Knowing, All-Wise, Infallible, Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, and Immaterial, and nobody except God can have those attributes. Some of God's other attributes are Good, Loving, Gracious, Merciful, Just, Righteous, Forgiving, Patient. Humans have the 'potential' to reflect these attributes of God and we reflect them to a greater of lesser degree, depending upon how spiritual we are.
I already made up my mind. I said that God is not a moral agent.Then god is a moral agent.
Again, make up your mind.
Either she can tell right from wrong or she can't.
The reason God is not a moral agent is because God is not accountable to anyone to act in any certain way.
Only humans are accountable to other humans.
Whether the North Koreans can hold him accountable or not, Kim Yung Un can discern right from wrong and he is a person, so he is accountable, and he a moral agent.
You can evaluate and judge God all you want to, but what are you evaluating and judging? How do you think you can know what God did or is doing at any time?
Moreover, judging God is illogical since you cannot know more than God regarding what is right and wrong since you are not all-knowing.
You'd have to be more than all-knowing to know more than God, which is logically impossible.
But that does not mean that God is a moral agent. God is not a moral agent is because God is not accountable to anyone to act in any certain way.
Yes, God can discern right and wrong human behavior. If not, how could God judge humans?That makes no sense.
Being all-knowing would mean he knows right from wrong and can identify which is which. That means she's able to discern right from wrong. As in: tell which is which.
Yes they are persons, according to the dictionary definitions.
Alien826
No religious beliefs
Well, if there is no god, there is no discussion .. so bye bye.
That was a short discussion!
firedragon
Veteran Member
How in the world would anyone believe they know why God "just allow" anything? You hav to be God to know that.
Alien826
No religious beliefs
All these discussions are necessarily set within two bounds. What a particular religion says about God, and what we observe about the world as we know it.
So yes, the idea of saying that I (or anyone) know that God does or thinks or feels anything is ridiculous. That's fine so long as we admit that it also applies to all the things that (some) theists say they "know" about God, like being loving, just, powerful, caring about my sex life and so on.
All a skeptic can do is to point out things that fall within the above bounds, which might be to suggest an internal contradiction or to use something we do know as possible evidence against a theist assertion.
marriedmanoffaith
Member
On this so-called "problem of evil", we must humbly acknowledge that we don't have all the answers. As finite human beings, our understanding is limited compared to God's infinite wisdom. We should be cautious about claiming to fully comprehend God's reasons for allowing evil and suffering.
That said, our faith and reason can provide some helpful perspectives:
1. God gave humans free will, which allows for the possibility of evil choices. Much suffering stems from human sin and selfishness.
2. Some challenges and hardships can help us grow in character, compassion, and reliance on God. As Scripture says, suffering can produce perseverance and hope (Romans 5:3-5).
3. This fallen world is not God's ultimate plan. He promises to one day establish a new heaven and earth without pain or evil (Revelation 21:4).
4. Through Jesus Christ, God entered into our suffering. He understands our pain and offers us comfort and strength.
5. God can bring good even out of evil circumstances, as we see in the story of Joseph in Genesis.
We trust in God's goodness and love, even when we don't understand. We're called to respond to evil and suffering with faith, hope, and loving action to help those in need.
Lisa Sims
Not BORN AGAIN Yet, But I'm On My WAY!
"Why Does God Allow the Suffering of the Innocent?"
Josephus, 1/1/2020
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I read on the link, but just looking at your question I don't know what you mean by 'the innocent'? Do you mean people who are not guilty of anything, so they don't deserve to suffer? I would say that includes everyone unless they are a criminal.
So, if God did not 'allow' the suffering of all those people that would mean God would have to intervene in this world and somehow stop that suffering, which would interfere with human free will. God would be there at every turn, altering the choices of humans. You might then say that all the suffering we endure does not come to us by our own choices, such as accidents, injuries, and diseases, but if God prevented all of those God would still be meddling with someone's choices or in the natural order in the world.
So, I think that the appropriate question is this: Why should God intervene to stop suffering?
I cannot come up with any logical answer to that question. Because some people don't 'like' suffering is not a logical reason for God to eliminate it. Moreover, suffering must exist for a purpose, and God would be the one to know hat that purpose better than any human, since God created the world.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Let's say you are a believe in a particular scripture. You know only what that says. Loving, all powerful, all knowing, etc. You don't know what it doesn't say about God.
Thinking you could know is by itself thinking you are God.
Why didn't God do that, why couldn't God do this, is to ask yourself only, not God. One could only make assumptions based on conjecture.
Alien826
No religious beliefs
Scriptures were written by men who had the same problem, that is they couldn't really know if what they were writing was "conjecture".
There's no solid foundation for any of it.