Akivah
Well-Known Member
Start a new thread if you want. For some reason, you're always happy to excuse the Muslims.
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This is for Allah ----- stupid!
- Thread starter Evangelicalhumanist
- Start date
Start a new thread if you want. For some reason, you're always happy to excuse the Muslims.
Are you suggesting that it is God that wants the bread baked, or me? If it's me, I'll bake it myself. If God wants it, and I don't, then let him do it -- I don't care and I won't eat it anyway.
Same thing with killing in the name of God. If I kill because I want to, then the blame is all mine. If God wants somebody killed, then he can do it himself -- I personally am not interested in killing people.
Your analogy lacks a little something, I think.
JustWondering
Jerk
Yea, people can only be pushed so far. An American led coalition invaded middle eastern countries years ago and to this day indiscriminately kills civilians with drone strikes. Westerners that think it's ok to be over there killing people can't decry terrorist attacks. Those who don't want violence inflicted upon them shouldn't inflict it on others.
I'm always happy to oppose bigotry.
That too.
Personally, I couldn't care less who you or anyone else want to marry. What does God think you ask? Ask him.
The argument that Islamic texts support terrorist bombings or stabbings, etc., is more often than not an inaccurate red herring at best. There's a reason only a tiny minority of Muslims carry out terrorist attacks or join groups like ISIS and al-Qaeda; it seems to me that a much bigger percentage of the nearly two-billion Muslims would be terrorists if Islamic texts supported terrorism of this kind.
Focusing on this red herring and straw man instead of other, more worrisome and concrete issues strikes me as similar to looking away from the elephant in the room and staring at the room's blank walls instead.
Focusing on this red herring and straw man instead of other, more worrisome and concrete issues strikes me as similar to looking away from the elephant in the room and staring at the room's blank walls instead.
I'm going to respectfully disagree with you.
Quran and violence - Wikipedia
"The Quran, the holy book of Islam, contains verses believed by Muslims to be revealed to the Islamic prophet Muhammad at different times and under different circumstances – some exhorting violence against enemies and others urging restraint and conciliation. Because some verses abrogate others, and because some are thought to be general commands while other refer to specific enemies, how the verses are understood and how they relate to each other "has been a central issue in Islamic thinking on war" according to scholars such as Charles Matthews.
While numerous scholars explain Quranic phrases on violence to be only in the context of a defensive response to oppression; violent groups have interpreted verses to endorse their violent actions and made the Quran's teachings on violence and war a topic of vigorous debate."
I can quote many passages that can offer a very violent and radical translation. The refined and proper way is for me to follow up with more resources and scholars to fully understand each context. But what if I choose not to and accept the literature as is with my own personal translation? What if I interpolate this from individuals to organizations, then to countries? Who's to say what is the right path?
My point is that religion is process of interpretation and hearsay. It evolves but with no clear direction as to how. We see most modern religions becoming more peaceful and civil, but I don't see a process in religion to keep it this way. For all I know, religion can perverse itself in the future.
In my profession, we use a term called root cause. If we don't root cause the issue, it will never be fixed. We can chase secondary, tertiary issues, all we like. That might patch things for some time but eventually, it will break again. Fix the root cause, and we've fixed the issue.
What do you believe to be the root cause of extremist terrorism?
Notanumber
A Free Man
We need more articles like this - Sheltering Islam from criticism has emboldened radicals and created a world for monsters
I do understand what you are saying, and it seems reasonable -- until one remembers how evolution works: when the environment changes, the inhabitants of that environment are going to change with it. And technology and other factors have changed the world immensely. Our "tribes" are no longer remote from each other, only occasionally touching and warring. I live in what the UN calls the most multi-cultural city in the world, Toronto, and can testify. Here, we make it work by trying to like one another, and learn about one another. Torontonians spend a lot of time enjoying the cultural festivals that abound in our city (east Asian, Italian, Portuguese, Greek, Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Polish, Russian, Caribbean -- you name it, we got it.
But my real point is, our world is now a very little place -- we can all get pretty much anywhere in very little time -- and we're doing it. Whether it's because we're escaping oppression or seeking adventure, it doesn't matter. All our races, our cultures, our religions are overlapping all over the place. This is not the world in which a purely tribal species can survive, and therefore, we will change.
I have it lucky, I suppose. I grew up in Children's Aid homes, foster homes and institutions, essentially without religion, and exposed very early to many cultures. My individualism comes naturally, I think, for that reason. For the rest, evolution will do it's job -- those who live together (and reproduce together) in peace and security will pass on their genetic and cultural makeup to their offspring. Those who kill and get killed will not. And we will change.[/QUOTE]
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And I think you are incorrect. If you can believe things that are demonstrably not true, and also desire or hope that others should believe the same way (probably helping to support your confidence in your own belief), then you are more likely to act in ways that try to make that happen.
There are no wars over whether Pi is an irrational number approximately equal to 3.14....this is known and demonstrably true. There are no wars over how gravity works, or whether the sun will come up every morning. We don't need to believe these things on faith, because we know them and can demonstrate them.
In my own personal view, and this will offend some, I know, I find it stupid to believe what can be clearly shown to be extremely unlikely, and can never, ever be demonstrated to be true. And even more stupid to become a "missionary" for that belief.
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
The thread is about killing in the name of religion, so what i was saying that killing
and wars are due to people's stupidity, we can see killing for trifle reasons and
we may see wars for greed and to control such as Russia attacking Ukraine.
Thanks for making that comment. Its hard to figure this stuff out.
For most Muslims, the Quran is supplemented by Hadith with various versions being accepted depending on the Islamic school (and Shi'a/Sunni). Very few Muslims rely solely on the Quran but basically I agree with your point.
At a retired IT person, 'root cause' is extremely familiar to me since I spent many many hours looking for that when problems arose. So your question is spot on.
I suspect it's not the ultimate root cause, but change especially the psychological effect would be on my list. The rate of change today is tremendous. This change bring with it a sense of insecurity which can easily turn into fear and anger.
When I was growing up, we knew who the enemy was, the Soviet Union, that we would have good middle-class jobs with stable corporations and retire with generous corporate pensions. Christianity and secondarily Judaism were assumed to be stable religions that everyone belonged to even if many just paid lip service. And the list goes on.
Idealistic rebels joined movements for equality and an end to discrimination because people they respected put their own bodies on the line
Today rebellious and idealistic people when young look for something promising them ultimate values and some find it in extremism. Dying for the cause becomes a romantic ideal especially with decaying traditional institutions days being numbered.
Cynical leaders who want someone else to die for the cause encourage and brainwash idealists.
Prejudices, backed by a misguided fundamentalist doctrine fed on by hate. It is a Total disregard of the Message they claim to follow.
Regards Tony
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
West intervention in the ME.
Notanumber
A Free Man
The people of the West did not want to intervene in the ME - One million march against war
However, those politicians that took us to war are the ones with the greatest personal protection against any backlash and they are the ones that invited the enemy into our countries. You could not make it up!
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
So it's the politicians.
Stupidity? Sounds very, atheist, no offence meant.
Why not soulless, impious etc. They're more categories a Muslim would relate to anyway. People, black or white are no better, except in piety and good deeds...
IQ sounds more and more like a capitalist construct, for the purpose of making money.
Why not soulless, impious etc. They're more categories a Muslim would relate to anyway. People, black or white are no better, except in piety and good deeds...
IQ sounds more and more like a capitalist construct, for the purpose of making money.
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