This is not Anti-Semetism- Why Zionism and the state of Israel are WRONG

[Rainbow Mage]

Levite it's not just religious Jews and Nuterei Karta that don't support Zionism, it's some secular Jews as well. I'm secular. You know I don't follow Judaism. I'm hardly the only secular Jew that is against Zionism. I think it's a real problem though when people start merging Zionism with the Jewish identity, as though all Jews are Zionists, or the true ones are Zionist, which is starting to happen. I've seen some Jews treat other Jews appalingly over this issue, ways that a Jew should never treat another Jew.

 

[Thesavorofpan]

:clap

If Isarel can't exist, then why can Egypt or USA or Japan or France Exist?

 

[fallingblood]

Because the last time the Jews were actually in Palestine before the UN established Israel was about 2,000 years ago. They were out of the area for 2,000 years. The Arabs got Palestine, and had it for 2,000 years. That's longer than the USA has held North America, longer than Britain has held the Falklands, longer than Russia has held Siberia, longer than India and Pakistan have held the Punjab, longer than the European settlers colonized Australia. If the Arabs had to renounce their ownership of Palestine, then all of the above countries and powers must also do the same for their respective territories.

However, when did the Arabs, or more specifically the Muslims, loose control over Palestine? By the time that Israel was given over to the Jews, the Muslims didn't even have power over Palestine anyways. So the Muslims had really no political right to the land anyway.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

The land still belongs to the Palestinians, rather they have political ownership over it or not. The least Israel could do, if they're going to claim political ownership over the land is stop treating the Palestinians like they're not human.

 

[fallingblood]

The land still belongs to the Palestinians, rather they have political ownership over it or not. The least Israel could do, if they're going to claim political ownership over the land is stop treating the Palestinians like they're not human.

I see it as a two way street here. The Palestinians hate the Jews and vice versa. Neither group treats each other properly.

Also, the land didn't belong to the Palestinians. They lost control of it, that is why the UN had the authority to split it up.

 

[kai]

The land still belongs to the Palestinians, rather they have political ownership over it or not. The least Israel could do, if they're going to claim political ownership over the land is stop treating the Palestinians like they're not human.

why does the land belong to "Palestinians"? the Turks ruled it for over 500 years before it became a British mandate.

The least Palestinians could do if they really want a two state solution is recognise the right to exist of a bona fide state called Israel. But its not the "Palestinians" doing all the talking is it its the likes of Hamas and its puppet masters in the Arab world.

There is no military solution to this problem and i suggest once the Arabs stop using Palestinians as pawns in a pseudo war with Israel the "us" and "them" propaganda might just subside.

 

[Thesavorofpan]

why does the land belong to "Palestinians"? the Turks ruled it for over 500 years before it became a British mandate.

The least Palestinians could do if they really want a two state solution is recognise the right to exist of a bona fide state called Israel. But its not the "Palestinians" doing all the talking is it its the likes of Hamas and its puppet masters in the Arab world.

There is no military solution to this problem and i suggest once the Arabs stop using Palestinians as pawns in a pseudo war with Israel the "us" and "them" propaganda might just subside.

That makes a lot of sense.

 

[Levite]

Levite it's not just religious Jews and Nuterei Karta that don't support Zionism, it's some secular Jews as well. I'm secular. You know I don't follow Judaism. I'm hardly the only secular Jew that is against Zionism. I think it's a real problem though when people start merging Zionism with the Jewish identity, as though all Jews are Zionists, or the true ones are Zionist, which is starting to happen. I've seen some Jews treat other Jews appalingly over this issue, ways that a Jew should never treat another Jew.

I very specifically never said that it was only ultra-religious Jews or Neturei Karta that don't support Zionism. I acknowledged that there are some secular and non-Orthodox Jews also who don't support Zionism. However, according to the best statistics I know of from Israel and from America (according to surveys by the national offices of the Jewish Federation) indicate that the numbers of non-Orthodox Jews who are actively anti-Zionist are quite small; numbers of secular Jews who are actively anti-Zionist are harder to measure-- as are secular Jewish numbers for anything, as secular Jews tend not to be easy to find, as they are not affiliated with any Jewish organizations, and even when found, many do not respond to surveys and questionaires from the Jewish community-- but are estimated to be average (that is, secular Jews are no more likely to be anti-Zionist than secular non-Jews, and that makes the estimated statistic around 35% of secular Jews). Of course, completely secular American Jews (that is, Jews who are completely unaffiliated with any kind of Jewish organization or institution, and who do not count themselves as members of any Jewish movement) are themselves quite a small percentage of total American Jewry (perhaps around 10%-- the numbers are much smaller in Europe and South America). Completely non-practicing Israeli Jews make up a much larger percentage of total Israeli Jewry, of course-- something like 25% or better-- but of course they tend to belong to many organizations and institutions which are in some way Zionist or culturally Jewish, of a sort that have no parallel in non-Israeli Jewish societies. Thus the numbers of Israeli chilonim ("secular Jews") who are actively anti-Zionist remain quite small.

My point was never that secular and non-Orthodox Jews are never anti-Zionist. Only that the numbers of such Jews who are actively anti-Zionist make up a very small portion of world Jewry. The numbers might rise considerably if we included secular and non-Orthodox Jews who are passively anti-Zionist simply by virtue of social apathy and disinterest in engaging with politics-- especially international politics-- as a whole. But in fact, many of the secular and otherwise nonpracticing Jews that I have met are the staunchest Zionists-- they feel the cultural and political aspects of Zionism replace or are equivalent to the practice of Jewish religion...a position which, I admit, I find quite troublesome, although probably not for all the same reasons you do.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The term Zionism carries with it a great deal of baggage thanks in great part to egregious practices on one side and effective propaganda on the other. But I have encountered exceedingly few Jews who favor the annihilation of Israel.

 

[fallingblood]

I just thought I would point this out. Just because one is Jewish doesn't mean they can't be an anti-semite. There are many self-hating Jews out there.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Oh yes falling blood let's start up the ole "self-hating Jew" thing because they don't support Zionism. That's exactly my point. People merging Zionism with the Jewish identity, and not supporting Zionism means you're a self hater.

 

[Cosmos]

One fundamental thing that needs to be realized is that no matter how connected Sion and Israel are, Zionism as an ideology has less to do with Judaism than Muslim fundamentalists who want the caliphate empire returned has to do with actual Islam. Zionists who control the Israeli Government and are allied with the secular Western governments wish to expand political and economic control over the Nile Delta (Egypt) and clear into Mesopotamia where the ancient Israelite empire extended under Davidic rule. This is why we see the violence towards the Arab Muslims and the complete disregard for United Nation protocols from the nation of Israel! An ideology mirroring this one would be Islamists in militant cells fighting for the return of the Golden Age of the Islamic Empire which spanned from Spain in the West to China and India in the East. Together they make up the calamity of the Middle East today. Another unfortunate aspect to Zionism is the racism involved in that the vast majority of supporters are European descended (Euro-Gentiles) allies to the northern Israelies who for 2,000 years have been conspicuously absent from the Levant. Religious imperialism is a poweful tool for control and establishing self-identity to a people who have been conquered and ruled for centuries under vassal lords. The Lost Ten Tribes of Israel ended up in all corners of the globe and intermixed with the native peoples and having returned from the mountains of the north as the Ashkenazim (Caucasian Jews) to dispossess.

 

[fallingblood]

Oh yes falling blood let's start up the ole "self-hating Jew" thing because they don't support Zionism. That's exactly my point. People merging Zionism with the Jewish identity, and not supporting Zionism means you're a self hater.

Did I say anything like that at all? Not even close. I was just pointing out a flaw in your initial post. As in it is possible to be an anti-semite and still be a Jew. What I stated has nothing to do with Zionism. It has to do with the fact that some Jews, for whatever reason, hate other Jews.

 

[Levite]

One fundamental thing that needs to be realized is that no matter how connected Sion and Israel are, Zionism as an ideology has less to do with Judaism than Muslim fundamentalists who want the caliphate empire returned has to do with actual Islam. Zionists who control the Israeli Government and are allied with the secular Western governments wish to expand political and economic control over the Nile Delta (Egypt) and clear into Mesopotamia where the ancient Israelite empire extended under Davidic rule. This is why we see the violence towards the Arab Muslims and the complete disregard for United Nation protocols from the nation of Israel! An ideology mirroring this one would be Islamists in militant cells fighting for the return of the Golden Age of the Islamic Empire which spanned from Spain in the West to China and India in the East. Together they make up the calamity of the Middle East today. Another unfortunate aspect to Zionism is the racism involved in that the vast majority of supporters are European descended (Euro-Gentiles) allies to the northern Israelies who for 2,000 years have been conspicuously absent from the Levant. Religious imperialism is a poweful tool for control and establishing self-identity to a people who have been conquered and ruled for centuries under vassal lords. The Lost Ten Tribes of Israel ended up in all corners of the globe and intermixed with the native peoples and having returned from the mountains of the north as the Ashkenazim (Caucasian Jews) to dispossess.

There was no part of this that even approached correctness. If it were any more wrong it would have been spelled backwards.

 

[Zardoz]

... It has to do with the fact that some Jews, for whatever reason, hate other Jews.

Or rather hate themselves, hate their own culture. When the whole world hates you, after a while you start accepting there must be a reason, and buy into it.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

From Galilee Dairy ...

Most recently, we held a joint study day on the topic of Reform Zionism - lectures, mixed discussion groups, a concluding panel. The discussions were lively and I think we achieved our goals. I personally had the privilege of introducing our featured guest speaker, Rabbi Richard Hirsch. When I was a kid at Union Institute Camp in Wisconsin, he was one of the dynamic young rabbis that turned us on to the connection between Judaism and the struggles for social justice that were so much in the center of American consciousness then; he went on to found the Religious Action Center, to march with King and Heschel. Enough for one resume. But then, in 1973 he made aliyah, and spent decades working to build the relationship between Zionism and Reform Judaism. That two-part career does not represent an obvious progression - I hope the students got its significance: I think it's not uncommon for those who are deeply committed to the universalistic, social-justice strand within Reform Judaism to keep their distance from Israel - because it represents the unabashedly ethnic/national/particularistic dimension of Judaism, and/or because as a society - or as a political entity - Israel doesn't always seem to behave according to our ethical preferences, leaving us frustrated/annoyed/turned off. When Dick Hirsch moved from Washington to Jerusalem he didn't leave his commitment to universalistic ethics behind - on the contrary, he made a powerful statement that is or should be the guiding principle of Reform Judaism in the Zionist context: if there is one place in the world where we Reform Jews have the opportunity and the obligation to translate our universalistic ethical principles into the messy reality of the political world, it is here, in the country that purports to be the Jewish state, the one place in the world where we are sovereign, where the buck stops with us. If we don't lead the way to building a state that is a Jewish state worthy of the name (and I don't just mean that Reform rabbis will have equal rights to marry), then, ultimately, Zionism will have failed, and Reform Judaism will be exposed as irrelevant to Jewish history.​

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Zionism is not Jewish culture!

 

[Caladan]

There was no part of this that even approached correctness. If it were any more wrong it would have been spelled backwards.

LOL amen. I rather enjoyed reading it, it always amuses me to read the absurdities people buy into. apparently the 'greater Israel' myth sells well along side the protocls of the elders of Zion in many middle eastern societies.

 

[Caladan]

Or rather hate themselves, hate their own culture. When the whole world hates you, after a while you start accepting there must be a reason, and buy into it.

I find it sad to imagine that there are people who actually believe that the whole world hates them.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

The world doesn't hate Jews, a lot of the world hates Zionism though, including some Jews.