This is sad

[Jose Fly]

It's not the vaccine. It's the negativity (OP) and blanketing everyone as non-caring and possible killers. I'd be press to find any expert that would say something like that.

That's the reality of the situation though. We can quibble over wording and framing, but the underlying reality remains.

 

[Vinayaka]

Except maybe ...

COVID-19 Vaccine Hesitancy: 12 Things You Need to Know

But that's from Johns Hopkins. They're some goofy left wing unreliable quacks.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You seem to be trying to have it both ways, where you want to be free to refuse the vaccine, while also being shielded from any criticism or consequences for that choice.

My view is....sorry, it doesn't work that way. When you make choices that put everyone else at risk, including people who are already medically vulnerable, you have to own those choices and face whatever consequences and criticism that comes your way.

It's more I want everyone to make their own choices without criticism.

Everyone is still at A risk regardless if they are vaccinated or not.

The only way you can spread something is if you have it, so the argument is based on an unknown factor-aka a risk factor.

You'd have a point with someone in a highly populated area. I'd disagree with someone whose in the small town in the VA mountains or low populated area where everyone knows your name (we have that a lot in the States). Which coincides with the lower the population, the lower the cases. If the population is so low there is only two cases and no deaths, why would they be more pressed to be vaccinated than someone in NY where the population is so high people are living in the sewers?

None of that addresses the point I've been making.

Unvaccinated people basically serve as a petri dish for the virus to evolve in. Given enough time, the virus will evolve a way around the vaccine and then wreak havoc on everyone.

It's possible. It depends on many factors.

It could. Depends on population, location, job, lifestyle, health, age, and other factors.

And everyone else at higher risk from an evolved strain.

I should have said everyone has A risk, just vaccinated people lowered their risk. If I went to a more populated area, my risk would be higher than it is here. Likewise, my risk would be lowered if I lived in the mountains (nearby); I wouldn't need to be vaccinated at all. Of course my risk would be even lower of spreading the virus if vaccinated, but people caught COVID from being vaccinated, so people are still at a risk.

Because you're not listening to what multiple people have tried to convey to you. Again, the population of those who medically cannot take the vaccine is not large enough to serve as a reservoir for the virus to evolve and spread again. It's only when you add in those who deliberately refuse the vaccine that it happens.

But they can still spread the virus, no?

If everyone who can take the vaccine gets vaccinated, the virus would be eradicated. People like you are preventing that outcome. I know you don't like hearing that, but it's just reality.

I totally doubt it. If that's the case, we should have done this for all viruses. No more flu virus. Pipe dreams, to put it honestly.

I'm just having a conversation. If you want to turn this into blaming and name calling, I'm out.

That doesn't make sense. Both of those are deliberate choices and behaviors that put others at risk. Why is one okay but the other not?

It depends on many factors.

What experts will say that everyone is at the same level of risk to get COVID?

Is the problem here that you just don't understand the concepts I've been trying to explain? Do you understand how the unvaccinated can serve as a petri dish for the virus and allow it to evolve?

Just because I don't agree doesn't mean I don't understand you.

They could. Depends on many factors like how many cases are in the area, deaths, health factors of people, lifestyle, population, etc.

I rather people make choices based on multiple factors that are congruent with their situation, loved ones, and not just people as a whole.

No expert will use being unvaccinated as the only risk factor of being a petri-dish. His personal opinion may reflect that but ethically, I would highly doubt it.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That's the reality of the situation though. We can quibble over wording and framing, but the underlying reality remains.

It seems like people are divided over what reality means. It's one thing to say unvaccinated people in itself are petridishes for the virus-which is a weird way to put it it, but it depends on other factors.

It totally different than saying someone else is uncaring, selfish, and so forth because of it. The first is just stating an opinion. That's fine. I never disagreed, I just see more factors involved than just being unvaccinated. But the latter, if vaccinated really cared about others, I don't (or I hope) their approach for convincing people to get vaccinated won't be insulting them.

On a World Wide Web???

But outside of RF, I really don't know what people really think. I'm not a protester so whatever issues people have, to put it directly, is in their heads.

It's how cognitive distortions develop. Your (a person's) opinions become so engraved in their feelings against you that they make it their reality or make it fact. Then when they are corrected, it challenges their overall opinion about you they had for awhile and causes cognitive dissonance-that's when attacks come. It's a push back.

Not saying I'm excluding from this but I think the difference is once I'm aware of it, I can pick up and change it in the immediate situation. It's hard-but it frustrates me when people Know they are insulting others and say they are Justified in doing so-very different than a slip up.

Comment/venting

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Guys

Let me ask.

I think this debate has nothing much to do with the idea of spreading the virus just the negativity against the unvaccinated people.

The smaller minority cannot get vacinated, so do you feel they should get the same treatment as those who chose not to vaccinate?

Who do you think can't be vaccinated?

If not, why not?

Edit.

I'm asking if the provax argument is less about the spread and more about disagreeing with people's choices.

I think that legitimate medical concerns deserve accommodation in a way that mere uninformed (or misinformed) opinion doesn't.

 

[Lyndon]

There is no way to get Covid from being vaccinated, ignorance of science and medicine seems to be one of the biggest factors in the anti vaxxer crowd

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Who do you think can't be vaccinated?

There was one here that couldn't.
Who Should not Get Vaccinated | CDC

Edit.
Better one COVID-19 Vaccination Considerations for Persons with Underlying Medica

I'm sure there are quite a few since CDC can't get a data on everyone and admits it doesn't know much (basically, take at your own risk)

It's a minority, but same point.

I think that legitimate medical concerns deserve accommodation in a way that mere uninformed (or misinformed) opinion doesn't.

There are. I think the majority can get vaccinated one way or another. They're making it possible without excuse.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Except maybe ...

COVID-19 Vaccine Hesitancy: 12 Things You Need to Know

I read all this and other articles on the CDC site.

You have to pick out what information I'm supposed to be looking for. Add some context.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Wrong, what they are saying is you may infect people, you may even be responsible for another persons death.

"May" is a probability, a risk factor. They were saying "will infect" not may infect.

Depends on the level of risk of catching COVID not the risk itself.

Again wrong, but the chance of a vaccinated person becoming infected and hence passing the vaccine on is around 90% less than a non vaxinated person.

Please get your facts straight before making accusations

In what area? I'm in the states.... percentages vary.

 

[ChristineM]

I read all this and other articles on the CDC site.

You have to pick out what information I'm supposed to be looking for. Add some context.

i answered your statement, try looking at #3

 

[Unveiled Artist]

There is no way to get Covid from being vaccinated, ignorance of science and medicine seems to be one of the biggest factors in the anti vaxxer crowd

100% sure? Even experts give a benefit of the doubt.

They're still learning about the vaccines they are creating.

 

[ChristineM]

There was one here that couldn't.
Who Should not Get Vaccinated | CDC

"May" is a probability, a risk factor. They were saying "will infect" not may infect.

Depends on the level of risk of catching COVID not the risk itself.

You said "It is. For example, vaccinated people don't know if I have the virus or not. So they "think" that because I'm not vaccinated I "am" going to infect people"

And i said that is wrong, to be accurate it should have read "i may infect people"

In what area? I'm in the states....

Which is one reason i said "around 90%" and that depends on the vaccine, not your address.

Look, we get you don't want to get vaccinated against covid, that is your choice, just don't expect people who care about others to validate your decision because it's not going to happen

 

[Unveiled Artist]

And i said that is wrong, to be accurate it should have read "i may infect people"

@JoseFly said "will" rather than maybe. I was telling him/her that unvaccinated people did not lower their risk of catching COVID. I corrected myself saying I should have said that unvaccinated people are on the same risk as everyone originally. Once one is vaccinated, they lowered their risk compared to their unvaccinated peer.

The level of probability depends on where one lives, age, and so forth thereby the risk of spreading depends as well.

What I'm saying it doesn't make sense to (I don't know) say unvaccinated people are selfish when the risk of spreading depends on the probability of catching the virus; and the probability of catching the virus depends on big factors like population, health, and lifestyle.

Experts will always incorporate more than one factor when determining who is more at risk than another that's not solely based on who is or isn't vaccinated. If we let the experts decide for us, that's one thing I'd be mindful of-what other factors are involved when spreading this virus or is it Just that I'm unvaccinated.

Which is one reason i said "around 90%" and that depends on the vaccine, not your address.

Look, we get you don't want to get vaccinated against covid, that is your choice, just don't expect people who care about others to validate your decision because it's not going to happen

The second part isn't even in my head. It sounds like you're getting offended over my opinions. That's fine. If you like.

My point still stands. My chance of getting COVID is different than yours because of population, age, health, and lifestyle.

Any expert will tell you this.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

ChristineM I'm not trying to convince you or anyone not to get vaccinated or any of that mess*. Provaxxers do that.

I'm sorry you disagree with my opinion, but my point still stands.... level of risk, catching covid, and spreading it depends on many factors.

If you're in a high risk area, of course you're at higher risk of catching it. If you're not, you're at a lower risk.

It depends on the person how much stock he or she wants to put in that risk.

Some decisions are based on careful consideration and others are based on fear.

It's an individual decision not an immoral one.

 

[ChristineM]

@JoseFly said "will" rather than maybe. I was telling him/her that unvaccinated people did not lower their risk of catching COVID. I corrected myself saying I should have said that unvaccinated people are on the same risk as everyone originally. Once one is vaccinated, they lowered their risk compared to their unvaccinated peer.

The level of probability depends on where one lives, age, and so forth thereby the risk of spreading depends as well.

What I'm saying it doesn't make sense to (I don't know) say unvaccinated people are selfish when the risk of spreading depends on the probability of catching the virus; and the probability of catching the virus depends on big factors like population, health, and lifestyle.

Experts will always incorporate more than one factor when determining who is more at risk than another that's not solely based on who is or isn't vaccinated. If we let the experts decide for us, that's one thing I'd be mindful of-what other factors are involved when spreading this virus or is it Just that I'm unvaccinated.



The second part isn't even in my head. It sounds like you're getting offended over my opinions. That's fine. If you like.

My point still stands. My chance of getting COVID is different than yours because of population, age, health, and lifestyle.

Any expert will tell you this.

I don't really care about how you justify your decision to yourself, it not my problem.

There ya go again telling me how i feel. Its the saddest part of this thread that you actually imagine that you know.

You chance of getting covid is far higher than mine because i am fully vaccinated and quite happy that have far less chance of infecting anyone else.

 

[Jose Fly]

I want everyone to make their own choices without criticism.

And I find that to be completely and utterly unreasonable. You're basically saying that you should be free to make irresponsible choices that endanger the health of everyone else, and also be exempt from any and all criticism for those choices.

The world simply does not work that way.

It seems like people are divided over what reality means. It's one thing to say unvaccinated people in itself are petridishes for the virus-which is a weird way to put it it, but it depends on other factors.

No it doesn't. I've explained this multiple times and you've not given one reason why anything I've said is wrong.

if vaccinated really cared about others, I don't (or I hope) their approach for convincing people to get vaccinated won't be insulting them

What would convince you to get vaccinated? Is the main reason you're hesitant because some vaccinated people are rude?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You chance of getting covid is far higher than mine because i am fully vaccinated and quite happy that have far less chance of infecting anyone else.

It is higher in general....but no expert would just go off of that.

They'd take these factors into consideration:

Population (is your population thicker than mine? More people, more at risk)

Age (are you younger or older than me?)
Health? How is your health compared to mine (rhetorical question)

Have you had COVID before? Many people who have are immune, though they are saying that you can still be reeffected. COVID-19 and Your Health But it is rare, though no one is 100% immune.

Culture? US primarily is a "social distancing" culture depending on the population. We don't like to touch strangers. Of course city areas where dense populations are have it worse.

What about environment? Are you in a virus infected area or living out near trees and nature.

You're not 100% immune, just at low risk than I am. The thing is, I don't have that type of fear and concern as others do. Not over internet, experts, and definitely not over people on RF.

 

[Jose Fly]

Look, we get you don't want to get vaccinated against covid, that is your choice, just don't expect people who care about others to validate your decision because it's not going to happen

Bingo!

 

[ChristineM]

It is higher in general....but no expert would just go off of that.

They'd take these factors into consideration:

Population (is your population thicker than mine? More people, more at risk)

Age (are you younger or older than me?)
Health? How is your health compared to mine (rhetorical question)

Have you had COVID before? Many people who have are immune, though they are saying that you can still be reeffected. COVID-19 and Your Health But it is rare, though no one is 100% immune.

Culture? US primarily is a "social distancing" culture depending on the population. We don't like to touch strangers. Of course city areas where dense populations are have it worse.

What about environment? Are you in a virus infected area or living out near trees and nature.

You're not 100% immune, just at low risk than I am. The thing is, I don't have that type of fear and concern as others do. Not over internet, experts, and definitely not over people on RF.

Up to you to live with your excuses and choice, don't expect me to condone it.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

And I find that to be completely and utterly unreasonable. You're basically saying that you should be free to make irresponsible choices that endanger the health of everyone else, and also be exempt from any and all criticism for those choices.

The world simply does not work that way.


No it doesn't. I've explained this multiple times and you've not given one reason why anything I've said is wrong.


What would convince you to get vaccinated? Is the main reason you're hesitant because some vaccinated people are rude?

Look at #117.

There are factors. It's not specific that "I'm" saying it (whether I say it or CDC, it's still a fact), but the fact that there are factors involved when it comes to whose at higher risk and whose more likely to catch the virus to spread it exists.