This is sad

[Unveiled Artist]

Vaccines, plural. Not one vaccine.

And it certainly seems that way, but I'm open to having my mind changed if you can show me real information. So far you haven't been able to identify any group who shouldn't get any of the vaccines.

I will admit, that doesn't matter.

If I'm wrong, you're saying you know 100% that every person in the world can take this vaccine.

I do remember one RF member said she couldn't-not a lie. They didn't question her on it thank goodness.

But I'm a bit open with probabilities. If I dependent on trying to find scientific facts for every person in the world, I'd never get off this computer. That's not realistic.

 

[Jose Fly]

Sometimes I fall back on language issues, but I won't say it's completely my fault. If the topic was different, say about cars, and they had the same issue, that would make sense. There's a lot of emotionalism involved. If it were a non-personal decision then I don't believe this would even come up.



I'm at a higher risk relative to those who lowered their risk. We haven't had more cases around here and in my area no deaths (and age, and so forth), so assessing my risks based on that, I'm not as much as people feel I am.

The risk is relative to the vaccinated person. We don't have cases in my immediate area (so know of) and no deaths. So, we're at a risk I just didn't lower it.



The possibility is open, yes.

I don't see it as increasing the risk of others-personally-because I'm not around people like that to increase their risk of catching COVID. If I get the vaccine, it would only be "just in case."

Rational? To who? I've given my reasons.



I'm near the mountains and in a less congested area that most people need cars to get places. But yeah, those are a few factors.



No.



Because my level of risk isn't high enough to concern me.

Here we go. Short and sweet.

No. I'm not afraid of the vaccine.

Okay, thanks for explaining. My takeaway is that you believe you don't need the vaccine because your risk of encountering COVID is very low, although it's not zero. You're upset because other folks have criticized you for that decision.

All I can say is....welcome to real life. Whether you acknowledge it or not, by refusing to get vaccinated you are increasing the risk of infecting yourself and others, some of whom cannot get the vaccine for medical reasons and are quite vulnerable. You're also increasing the risk that the virus will evolve further, potentially even to the point where vaccines are no longer effective.

That's a lot of risk to pile on merely because "I live in the country and the virus doesn't seem to be here". First of all, just because it's not there now, doesn't mean it won't be in the future. The latest variants spread much more easily and rapidly, so it may just be a matter of time before it finds you. Second, you don't know what your future holds. You may need to go to a hospital, court, government office, etc., and by not being vaccinated you would be taking on risk for yourself as well as imposing risk onto others.

You say you social distance and wear a mask. I have to wonder....why are those things okay, but getting vaccinated isn't? By masking and social distancing you're acknowledging that you're at risk for getting COVID at least to the point where those precautions are justified in your mind, so why is getting vaccinated not equally justified? You said you're not scared of it, so what's going on?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Okay, thanks for explaining. My takeaway is that you believe you don't need the vaccine because your risk of encountering COVID is very low, although it's not zero. You're upset because other folks have criticized you for that decision.

Almost. Yes to the first part. My OP was people were critical at nonvaccinated people. I wasn't specifically talking about me. There was another thread of many that I wasn't apart of but I notice the pattern and was venting. When the OP becomes centered around the OP person (regardless who) it gets frustrating. I don't like bold red clauses, but I thought maybe people read the section it was in and notice there was no questions involved.

All I can say is....welcome to real life. Whether you acknowledge it or not, by refusing to get vaccinated you are increasing the risk of infecting yourself and others, some of whom cannot get the vaccine for medical reasons and are quite vulnerable. You're also increasing the risk that the virus will evolve further, potentially even to the point where vaccines are no longer effective.

I can't change your opinion, but at least I hope you understood mine.

That's a lot of risk to pile on merely because "I live in the country and the virus doesn't seem to be here". First of all, just because it's not there now, doesn't mean it won't be in the future. The latest variants spread much more easily and rapidly, so it may just be a matter of time before it finds you. Second, you don't know what your future holds. You may need to go to a hospital, court, government office, etc., and by not being vaccinated you would be taking on risk for yourself as well as imposing risk onto others.

It's not a high risk for that to concern me. Those reasons are so vague that no matter how much I explain it, it won't work.

You say you social distance and wear a mask. I have to wonder....why are those things okay, but getting vaccinated isn't? By masking and social distancing you're acknowledging that you're at risk for getting COVID at least to the point where those precautions are justified in your mind, so why is getting vaccinated not equally justified? You said you're not scared of it, so what's going on?

I get what you're asking now.

In addition to not being at a high risk that would concern me? Hmm.. Like the flu vaccine, I never got any vaccines other than in grade school where you had to have one. I was always indifferent to them "and" it doesn't help they are still learning more about it-its still experimental (no one reason over another). If it was not experimental, it's the same thing. "Also" something about it doesn't sit right in me. They'd have to force me to take it but coercion to take it doesn't help.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I will admit, that doesn't matter.

If I'm wrong, you're saying you know 100% that every person in the world can take this vaccine.

I do remember one RF member said she couldn't-not a lie. They didn't question her on it thank goodness.

But I'm a bit open with probabilities. If I dependent on trying to find scientific facts for every person in the world, I'd never get off this computer. That's not realistic.

So no real information, then?

I'm beginning to doubt your sincerity.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

So no real information, then?

I'm beginning to doubt your sincerity.

I'll have to admit, that I don't have data. I was asking if you believed there is at least one person in the world that cannot be vaccinated.

It's not an excuse not to get vaccinated-if that's what you inaccurately thinking-I never claimed that nor promote that.

I just find it unrealistic both from a scientific and logical perspective that there are no X factors in people who can receive the vaccine.

I have no medical excuse personally, but I know others do.

If I tried to prove you wrong, I would forge an excuse. I will not.

As for doubting my sincerity, I never was trying to prove a point you must agree with. I'm just saying it's unrealistic to say 100% of people can receive vaccination.

Whether you believe me or not is your thing, but that doesn't mean I'm insincere it just (most likely) means you're judging me without being objective about the topic.

Toss your biases. I have no bone to pick with people's choice to vaccinate.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'll have to admit, that I don't have data.

That much is obvious at this point.

I was asking if you believed there is at least one person in the world that cannot be vaccinated.

Yes, that was the tangent you took to distract from the fact that you misrepresented those two CDC links.

Why did you do that, BTW? Did you think I wasn't going to check them?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That much is obvious at this point.

But my question is still the same.

Yes, that was the tangent you took to distract from the fact that you misrepresented those two CDC links.

Why did you do that, BTW? Did you think I wasn't going to check them?

Yeah. I posted the first one and realized it was talking about regular vaccinations. So I edited and posted the second one.

My question still stands. Do you believe that everyone is able to take the vaccine and there is not one person in the world that is exempt from taking it?

 

[Lyndon]

i'm starting to think that maybe your real reasons for not taking the vaccine are so strange that you're afraid to mention them on a public forum

 

[Unveiled Artist]

i'm starting to think that maybe your real reasons for not taking the vaccine are so strange that you're afraid to mention them on a public forum

#143
I mentioned it many times in various threads throughout the months.

If you haven't gotten why by now, I think it's that you want a rational reason you can agree with.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Why did you do that, BTW? Did you think I wasn't going to check them?

9-10ths_Penguin. I know you can't see or hear me, but I literally and genuinely not debating you, trying to prove anything, and using links etc to "prove you're wrong."

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

But my question is still the same.

Well, get in line behind me. I'm still waiting for an answer to this one:

Who do you think can't be vaccinated?

Yeah. I posted the first one and realized it was talking about regular vaccinations. So I edited and posted the second one.

The second one was a list of health conditions with either "people with this condition can still get get vaccinated" or "it's especially important for people with this condition to get vaccinated."

My question still stands. Do you believe that everyone is able to take the vaccine and there is not one person in the world that is exempt from taking it?

I think that there are a number of vaccines made with different ingredients and using completely different approaches.

While I haven't heard about any significant concerns with any particular vaccine, I think it would be extremely unlikely that someone can't take any of the vaccines on the market.

But again: I'm open to having my mind changed if you have - or can find - any real information to the contrary.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

9-10ths_Penguin. I know you can't see or hear me, but I literally and genuinely not debating you, trying to prove anything, and using links etc to "prove you're wrong."

I don't believe you.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I don't believe you.

Ok. That doesn't change anything unless you know more in person.

Beliefs aren't facts

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Those who refuse to get vaccinated are serving as a reservoir for the virus and allowing it to evolve, which means eventually it will evolve its way around our vaccines. IOW, the unvaccinated are putting us all at greater risk.

Ok.

That doesn't change the logic that level of risk should be taken into consideration when making statements of people intentions.

Where would you like the minority of unvaccinated people to go?

While I haven't heard about any significant concerns with any particular vaccine, I think it would be extremely unlikely that someone can't take any of the vaccines on the market.

I agree.

It is unlikely "and" it could be possible. This was all I wanted to know.

Ohh. Your question. I'm saying there is always an X factor no matter how small the percentage maybe.

A better example. Johnson vaccine was put on hold now released. It's very rare they say to get blood clots from J&J but a couple have had them.

But

They still withheld it.

Why would they take such a small percentage seriously if it were just nothing?

Entertaining probabilities doesn't hurt. It lets you make informed decisions whether you decide to vaccinate or not.

Doing it cause you think you may get infected is not strong enough reason in my opinion. You need other factors involved to make health related decisions. At least doctors think this.

 

[Jose Fly]

I can't change your opinion, but at least I hope you understood mine.

I think I do.

Like the flu vaccine, I never got any vaccines other than in grade school where you had to have one. I was always indifferent to them "and" it doesn't help they are still learning more about it-its still experimental (no one reason over another). If it was not experimental, it's the same thing. "Also" something about it doesn't sit right in me. They'd have to force me to take it but coercion to take it doesn't help.

I think I understand now. This isn't really about the COVID vaccine specifically; you generally don't trust vaccines anyways. This is about you wanting to be free to not take any vaccines, while also being free from public criticism for that (and when I say "you", I mean "people who refuse to be vaccinated", not just you personally).

Like I said earlier, that's not at all realistic. The non-vaccinated have made a choice that affects us all, and thus many of us are going to speak out against what we see as a selfish and reckless decision, especially when one of you posts about your decision on a public forum.

If you don't like being told you're being selfish and reckless, then don't be selfish and reckless. If you go ahead and decide to be selfish and reckless anyways, understand that part of the deal is that you will face criticism. Can't have it both ways.

Where would you like the minority of unvaccinated people to go?

Go? I don't think they should "go" anywhere. Part of the price of living in a free society is you have to tolerate people making selfish and reckless decisions, sometimes even when they endanger public health.

I would however support businesses, schools, events, etc. being able to turn away people who have refused to be vaccinated in the midst of a global pandemic.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I think I understand now. This isn't really about the COVID vaccine specifically; you generally don't trust vaccines anyways. This is about you wanting to be free to not take any vaccines, while also being free from public criticism for that (and when I say "you", I mean "people who refuse to be vaccinated", not just you personally).

Almost. I'm indifferent to vaccines and never felt I needed them. COVID, given factors such as location, statistics, lifestyle, health, etc, makes my risk of getting it lower than someone else. If I get the vaccine it would be a "just in case" and I don't believe health decisions should be based on just-in-case scenarios.

I think you're putting intentions in my head to try to justify (negative or not) why I chose not to take it. Can there be an idea that the choice doesn't need to have a deep conspiracy meaning in order for it to make sense whether or not you agree with it?

This OP was in a journal entry. Ideally, journal entries aren't supposed to be challenged. There were no questions. It was moved unfortunately because people have itchy keyboard fingers to make everything into a debate.

Like I said earlier, that's not at all realistic. The non-vaccinated have made a choice that affects us all, and thus many of us are going to speak out against what we see as a selfish and reckless decision, especially when one of you posts about your decision on a public forum.

If I knew someone had COVID and they decided to not social distance, I'd say their behavior is selfish. But I'd need more evidence that the person is in danger to someone else than just being unvaccinated.

If you don't like being told you're being selfish and reckless, then don't be selfish and reckless. If you go ahead and decide to be selfish and reckless anyways, understand that part of the deal is that you will face criticism. Can't have it both ways.

This is an attack on me which is unnecessary. The OP was talking about provaxxers in general attacking unvaccinated people in general.

Strangers can offend me about masks, what car I would drive, and what close to wear but not my health. It's just a conversation.

Go? I don't think they should "go" anywhere. Part of the price of living in a free society is you have to tolerate people making selfish and reckless decisions, sometimes even when they endanger public health.

Finally. Someone answered the question.

One RFian said it was alright to shun unvaccinated people. I don't know if that mindset would be the same for a group of unvaccinated people not just one.

I would however support businesses, schools, events, etc. being able to turn away people who have refused to be vaccinated in the midst of a global pandemic.

That's why I ask--where would you put us?

It's coercion to say in one breathe it's a free society and in the other turn people away until they get vaccinated.

You'd literally have to Prove they Are in danger to others to even be valid in a court of law.

 

[Jose Fly]

If I get the vaccine it would be a "just in case" and I don't believe health decisions should be based on just-in-case scenarios.

What th........? In medicine and public health, "just in case" measures are called "preventive medicine". You say you wear a mask and social distance....those are "just in case" measures!

Washing your hands...preventive. Regular checkups....preventive. Cancer screenings....preventive. Treating drinking water...preventive.

Sheesh.

If I knew someone had COVID and they decided to not social distance, I'd say their behavior is selfish. But I'd need more evidence that the person is in danger to someone else than just being unvaccinated.

Multiple people have tried to explain it to you in several different ways. I'm not sure there's anything else that can be done.

This is an attack on me which is unnecessary. The OP was talking about provaxxers in general attacking unvaccinated people in general.

Strangers can offend me about masks, what car I would drive, and what close to wear but not my health. It's just a conversation.

Like I said, if you don't like being called selfish and reckless, then don't do selfish and reckless things.

That's why I ask--where would you put us?

And I answered....I wouldn't "put" you anywhere.

It's coercion to say in one breathe it's a free society and in the other turn people away until they get vaccinated.

Um.....we turn away people who aren't following health guidelines all the time. Ever see signs that say "No shirt, no shoes, no service"?

You'd literally have to Prove they Are in danger to others to even be valid in a court of law.

That's been done. It's why schools are able to require students be vaccinated before they can attend.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

What th........? In medicine and public health, "just in case" measures are called "preventive medicine". You say you wear a mask and social distance....those are "just in case" measures!

I've been in and out of the hospital for years. We never did it just in case. We always had testings, meds, trial and error, second, third, and forth opinion, patient instinct, doctor's instinct, loved ones, in patient stay, out patient stay, home monitoring, and all of this. To make a point.

Actually, no. I don't wear masks cause I have the virus or possibly have it.

That's the difference.

Washing your hands...preventive. Regular checkups....preventive. Cancer screenings....preventive. Treating drinking water...preventive.

Sheesh.

Getting wound up?

Second nature. We've been doing this since we were kids.

Multiple people have tried to explain it to you in several different ways. I'm not sure there's anything else that can be done.

If I don't agree that means I don't understand??

Like I said, if you don't like being called selfish and reckless, then don't do selfish and reckless things.

Who called "me" selfish (out loud)?

The OP was about provaxxers calling unvaccinated selfish. I just happen to be one of them.

And I answered....I wouldn't "put" you anywhere.

Yes. The next comment with not allowing unvaccinated people to go to businesses is pretty much the same thing.....

Um.....we turn away people who aren't following health guidelines all the time. Ever see signs that say "No shirt, no shoes, no service"?

Not the same, no. Masks yes. Vaccination,no. The context is different. Masks you take off when you don't need it. Some unvaccinated people talk about vaccination side-effects. Now to compare the two, believe me, I rather wear a mask than go with what experts say about possible side affects and still being experimental.

If I Wanted to get the vaccine, I wouldn't until it's been FDA approved first.

That's been done. It's why schools are able to require students be vaccinated before they can attend.

That's fine. If I worked at a hospital, school, or traveled, then yeah. I would need it.

Like I said. It depends.

 

[Jose Fly]

I've been in and out of the hospital for years. We never did it just in case. We always had testings, meds, trial and error, second, third, and forth opinion, patient instinct, doctor's instinct, loved ones, in patient stay, out patient stay, home monitoring, and all of this. To make a point.

Sigh......

I didn't say all medical care is preventive.

Actually, no. I don't wear masks cause I have the virus or possibly have it.

Why do you wear one?

Second nature. We've been doing this since we were kids.

?????? That doesn't mean they're not preventive.

If I don't agree that means I don't understand??

Given your posts today, I'd say it's obvious you're not thinking about this objectively or critically.

Who called "me" selfish (out loud)?

The OP was about provaxxers calling unvaccinated selfish. I just happen to be one of them.

Yep, I'm calling you and others like you selfish and reckless. You're driving the wrong way down a one-way street, and when the rest of us tell you you're putting us all in danger, you say "I live in a rural area where there aren't many cars, so the risk is very low".

Yes. The next comment with not allowing unvaccinated people to go to businesses is pretty much the same thing.....

Only in the same sense that we "put" people who refuse to wear shoes somewhere.

Not the same, no. Masks yes. Vaccination,no. The context is different. Masks you take off when you don't need it. Some unvaccinated people talk about vaccination side-effects. Now to compare the two, believe me, I rather wear a mask than go with what experts say about possible side affects and still being experimental.

Legally, it is the same. Just as a business or school can deny you entry for not wearing a shirt or shoes, they can deny you entry for not being vaccinated.

That's fine. If I worked at a hospital, school, or traveled, then yeah. I would need it.

Like I said. It depends.

Then do us all a favor....stay at home and don't go around other people until you either get vaccinated or the virus has been eradicated.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I didn't say all medical care is preventive.

I didn't say you said "all."

You said medical health is just in case (preventive) measures, and I was saying medical health I don't take "just in case." I, doctors, loved ones, all look at other factors involved-those that I listed.

Why do you wear one?

Truthfully? For other people's sanity. I don't wear it when I don't need it. Nowadays, I don't think much of it until someone goes nuts thinking they'll catch COVID in the one second I go by them. Gets frustrating, so mind as well wear it.

?????? That doesn't mean they're not preventive.

I didn't say it wasn't.

It's just second nature-so there's no "deep" reasoning behind it.

Given your posts today, I'd say it's obvious you're not thinking about this objectively or critically.

Even if you thought I had, my conclusions would be the same.

Yep, I'm calling you and others like you selfish and reckless. You're driving the wrong way down a one-way street, and when the rest of us tell you you're putting us all in danger, you say "I live in a rural area where there aren't many cars, so the risk is very low".

Okay.... that doesn't mean its a fact just your opinion.

You'd have to decide whether I am in danger to others by other factors-like do I actually have COVID, am I around people, have I had it before, do I go out of the area (do I increase my risk), and things like that.

A blanketed statement "I'm unvaccinated" means nothing.

Only in the same sense that we "put" people who refuse to wear shoes somewhere.

Another difference is people who don't wear shoes that are told they can't enter the store are not accused of possible killing other people.

The two scenarios don't relate.

Legally, it is the same. Just as a business or school can deny you entry for not wearing a shirt or shoes, they can deny you entry for not being vaccinated.

True.

Doesn't mean it's right, but legally, yeah.

Later on, though, when vaccinations are approved FDA and ADA becomes involved, public businesses can get sued for denying people access because of a "perceived" threat. Private businesses can do whatever they want, though.

It's sad but not a good reason to get vaccinated. Coercion.

Health decisions should be made with many factors involved not just fear and consequences.

Then do us all a favor....stay at home and don't go around other people until you either get vaccinated or the virus has been eradicated.

Ha. You're taking this so personally just by the sentence "I'm unvaccinated"...

You need more to go off of than that.

If not you're trying to make a mountain from a molehill. It's not worth the frustration.

Insults don't strengthen your point and it doesn't help with the conversation, just weakens it.