This is sad

[Unveiled Artist]

Up to you to live with your excuses and choice, don't expect me to condone it.

Who asked you to condone it ChristineM?

That would be odd to ask you to condone something you are strongly against.

Don't let other people's actions define your character.

 

[ChristineM]

ChristineM I'm not trying to convince you or anyone not to get vaccinated or any of that mess*. Provaxxers do that.

I'm sorry you disagree with my opinion, but my point still stands.... level of risk, catching covid, and spreading it depends on many factors.

If you're in a high risk area, of course you're at higher risk of catching it. If you're not, you're at a lower risk.

It depends on the person how much stock he or she wants to put in that risk.

Some decisions are based on careful consideration and others are based on fear.

It's an individual decision not an immoral one.

I personally think it is not only immoral but irresponsible.

 

[Jose Fly]

Look at #117.

There are factors. It's not specific that "I'm" saying it (whether I say it or CDC, it's still a fact), but the fact that there are factors involved when it comes to whose at higher risk and whose more likely to catch the virus to spread it exists.

You're playing a rather dishonest game here. You're trying to wave away the fact that your refusal to get vaccinated puts everyone else at risk by saying "there are other risks" as if the existence of "other risks" completely negates the unnecessary risk you're imposing on everyone else.

Unless you're a hermit who never goes out and is never around any other people, by being unvaccinated you yourself are a major risk factor for other people. And guess what? Some of those other people are going to criticize you and call you out for your decision.

And to repeat.....what are you waiting on before you'll get vaccinated?

 

[ChristineM]

Who asked you to condone it ChristineM?

That would be odd to ask you to condone something you are strongly against.

Don't let other people's actions define your character.

You posted the thread. So you asked, you didn't like the response you got,you moved the goalposts, still no joy, and why, because it is not going to happen. You made your decision, not up to me to live with it is it?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

And I find that to be completely and utterly unreasonable. You're basically saying that you should be free to make irresponsible choices that endanger the health of everyone else, and also be exempt from any and all criticism for those choices.

The world simply does not work that way.

No. Putting intentions in my mouth-that's wrong.

I can consider myself more at risk if I think for myself-my health, my environment, my age, if I were social, where I work, am I taking care of loved ones, am I at a crowded store...how long... if I usually ride the bus or do I walk...

It's not based solely on thousands of people dying.

No it doesn't. I've explained this multiple times and you've not given one reason why anything I've said is wrong.

I never disagreed with a lot of what you were saying-the main points. I just disagree that you guys aren't considering other factors and that being unvaccinated in and of itself "does" affect people.

Its the choice in words. But I wasn't talking to you (and ChristineM) to prove you guys wrong.

What would convince you to get vaccinated? Is the main reason you're hesitant because some vaccinated people are rude?

No. I don't make health decisions based on other people's responses. I assess my own health, with my doctor, and maybe opinions from loved ones and other factors involved but not people's negativity.

I would hope people would take the vaccine.....

not just from what experts say, not just that thousands of people died, but "also" by their own decision (outside confirmation bias), their lifestyle (homebody or active in the community), their health (pre-existing conditions), age (elderly?), and environment (high populated or low populated).

Of course you can vaccinate just in case, but no one should insult you for your choice to vaccinate and vis versa because they Don't know you and your situation.

 

[Lyndon]

so far you haven't given a single valid reason for not getting vaccinated, and yet you're claiming its the pro vaxxers that are the unreasonable ones, ridiculous!

 

[Jose Fly]

No. Putting intentions in my mouth-that's wrong.

You posted, "I want everyone to make their own choices without criticism".

I can consider myself more at risk if I think for myself-my health, my environment, my age, if I were social, where I work, am I taking care of loved ones, am I at a crowded store...how long... if I usually ride the bus or do I walk...

It's not based solely on thousands of people dying.

That doesn't make sense, except in the context I described earlier where you're dishonestly trying to wave away the risk you're imposing on others by saying "there's other risks".

Yes, there are other risks. So what? How does "there are other risks" justify not taking the vaccine? If there are already other risks, why are you adding to them?

I just disagree that you guys aren't considering other factors and that being unvaccinated in and of itself "does" affect people.

Do you ever go outside of your home? Are you ever in public places and around other people?

No. I don't make health decisions based on other people's responses. I assess my own health, with my doctor, and maybe opinions from loved ones and other factors involved but not people's negativity.

I would hope people would take the vaccine.....

not just from what experts say, not just that thousands of people died, but "also" by their own decision (outside confirmation bias), their lifestyle (homebody or active in the community), their health (pre-existing conditions), age (elderly? Child?), and environment (high populated or low populated).

Of course you can vaccinated just in case, but no one should insult you for your choice to vaccinate and vis versa because they Don't know you and your situation.

You didn't answer my question. What are you waiting for before you'll take the vaccine?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You posted the thread. So you asked, you didn't like the response you got,you moved the goalposts, still no joy, and why, because it is not going to happen. You made your decision, not up to me to live with it is it?

You're taking this personal. This was originally a journal thread. You responded to one of my posts and it went from there.

Whether or not you want to address the OP is up to you, but my points are the same. Whether you read them or not, I don't know but the problem is something you'd have to work out yourself.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

There was one here that couldn't.
Who Should not Get Vaccinated | CDC

AFAICT, that link has nothing to do with COVID-19 vaccines.

Edit.
Better one COVID-19 Vaccination Considerations for Persons with Underlying Medica

AFAICT, that page doesn't identify anyone who shouldn't get vaccinated.

I'm sure there are quite a few since CDC can't get a data on everyone and admits it doesn't know much (basically, take at your own risk)

Who?

It's a minority, but same point.

Let's establish whether this group of people you're claiming exists at all. Then we can consider how large it is.

 

[ChristineM]

You're taking this personal. This was originally a journal thread. You responded to one of my posts and it went from there.

Whether or not you want to address the OP is up to you, but my points are the same. Whether you read them or not, I don't know but the problem is something you'd have to work out yourself.

There ya go again trying to big up your own ego. No this is not personal, but you sure are implying its personal

Journal threads are put in the journal forum. General debates are general debates

I have addressed the op, you didn't like my answer so you moved the goalpost and still didn't like my answer. Now you are blaming me for not giving the answer you want. Sorry if it upsets you but life is not like that.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Friendly note. All my RF replies, I use the original last post and the post I'm replying to so I know the context of the posts in order to reply. I also go from top to bottom, so whatever answers you had at the bottom, I wouldn't know you addressed cause I hadn't reach there yet.

And I find that to be completely and utterly unreasonable. You're basically saying that you should be free to make irresponsible choices that endanger the health of everyone else, and also be exempt from any and all criticism for those choices.

You posted, "I want everyone to make their own choices without criticism".

You're basically saying.... this is an assumption and I was just saying you're wrong.

That doesn't make sense, except in the context I described earlier where you're dishonestly trying to wave away the risk you're imposing on others by saying "there's other risks".

Yes, there are other risks. So what? How does "there are other risks" justify not taking the vaccine? If there are already other risks, why are you adding to them?

No

I said that vaccinated people put themselves at a lower risk of catching COVID making me, from their perspective, at higher risk.

I also said we are all at A risk, just our risk levels vary.

I actually wasn't justifying whether to take the vaccine was right or wrong.
I just said the importance of it depends on factors, level of risk, and a person's independent decisions.

I'm not against the vaccine.

Do you ever go outside of your home? Are you ever in public places and around other people?

Not all the time, no. I stopped riding the bus years ago. I'm only in the store five minutes, never at the mall, and either running in the park, or behind my desk working.

This is where environment factors comes into play. Now, if I were in the city instead of next to the country that would be totally different-your point would be stronger.

You didn't answer my question. What are you waiting for before you'll take the vaccine?

I didn't answer it cause I didn't know how this applied to the conversation. I assume if I answered it, we'd go off of another tangent on why I made the wrong decision.

From the context, though, because I asses the factors I've already stated, it's not in my immediate best interest to do so. If I do, I wouldn't be doing it for me but peer pressure and that is something I don't want to do when it comes to my health. I rather social distance, wear a mask, and go running in the woods like I usually do.

In some situations its appropriate to generalize, in this it is not.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I want everyone to make their own choices without criticism.

I get that, but that's not a realistic expectation. Aren't you criticizing those that criticize the unvaccinated? You don't like their behavior, and they don't like that of the unvaccinated. That's how people are. If you express an unpopular position in a public forum, you should expect to see some blowback. Nobody likes that, but it comes with the territory if one wants to participate in a public discussion with strangers. I think you know that. It's unrealistic to expect all others to either agree with you or be silent. It's their forum, too. You needn't have given your vaccination status, and shouldn't have if you didn't want to hear disagreement.

But here you are arguing for acceptance of vaccine hesitancy from people that have told you that they view that choice as antisocial, dangerous to them and others, and based in fear and ignorance. It doesn't really matter if they're correct or not. That's what many of these people think. You might benefit from having a more realistic idea of what you can get such people to agree with you about. Asking them to stop disesteeming and judging you is unrealistic. It's not what human nature is like, and some would argue that your expectations are also unfair. It asks them to censor themselves for your comfort when they feel passionately that what you are doing is wrong.

I find you a very agreeable and likeable person, and though I disagree with you, I don't want to make you feel bad. Yet I will give my opinion any way, because, like many others, I feel passionately about this matter. You are free to express your opinions, and I think you ought to respect the right of others to express theirs even if you consider them unkind.

I get what you guys are saying. Do you get what I am saying?

Yeah, I think so. You want behavior that others consider unacceptable to be accepted.

Incidentally, I'm not sure that you get what we are telling you. If you did, you would give up posting provocative opinions and expecting all others to accept them or remain silent.

Would you section off unvaccinated people so they won't "possibly" affect other people-maybe just themselves?

I would do my best to not be with unvaccinated people in confined spaces for extended periods of time. Others will also try to avoid being with them. This may lead to the vaccinated socializing together here and the unvaccinated getting together with their own. The unvaccinated would presumably be just as comfortable with a room full of fellow unvaccinated people as with vaccinated people.

If not, more the moral condemnation for refusing a vaccine. I don't think too many people would approve of an unvaccinated person shunning other unvaccinated people and preferring to be with the vaccinated.

what would you do with that minority to make sure the disease doesn't spread to vaccinated people?

We can't insure that. The unvaccinated will be a risk to everybody else, and the more of them there are to incubate new variants, the greater the public health threat they represent. What can we do but try to avoid being with them for now?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

so far you haven't given a single valid reason for not getting vaccinated, and yet you're claiming its the pro vaxxers that are the unreasonable ones, ridiculous!

Wow. Where you get that from?

My Op said provaxxers are negative against people who are unvaccinated.

It was a journal entry and it was never supposed to be challenged as such.

Unreasonable?

How are you unreasonable other than the negativity and insults?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

AFAICT, that link has nothing to do with COVID-19 vaccines.


AFAICT, that page doesn't identify anyone who shouldn't get vaccinated.


Who?


Let's establish whether this group of people you're claiming exists at all. Then we can consider how large it is.

Do you believe that there is not one person in the whole world who for health reasons cannot get the vaccine?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

There ya go again trying to big up your own ego. No this is not personal, but you sure are implying its personal

Journal threads are put in the journal forum. General debates are general debates

I have addressed the op, you didn't like my answer so you moved the goalpost and still didn't like my answer. Now you are blaming me for not giving the answer you want. Sorry if it upsets you but life is not like that.

Again. This wasn't a general debate thread. If you read the first page, you can see that.

Journal threads ideally shouldn't be debated. Unfortunately, people either don't read or do whatever.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yeah, I think so. You want behavior that others consider unacceptable to be accepted.

No. My OP was a journal entry, so anything you guys add to that seems more about my bad choices not the actual topic.

 

[Jose Fly]

You're basically saying.... this is an assumption and I was just saying you're wrong.

Given what you posted, plus how multiple other people have gotten the same impression, I'd say the issue is with how you're expressing yourself.

As it stands now, a lot of folks here are rather confused as to what your point is.

I said that vaccinated people put themselves at a lower risk of catching COVID making me, from their perspective, at higher risk.

This is a good example. It reads to me like you're saying that you're at a higher risk because other people choose to get vaccinated.

You're at a higher risk simply because you're not vaccinated. That others are vaccinated doesn't change that.

I also said we are all at A risk, just our risk levels vary.

And by not taking the vaccine you're increasing your own risk level, as well as increasing the risk levels for lots of other people, and potentially even the rest of humanity. Yet you've not given a rational reason for doing so.

Not all the time, no. I stopped riding the bus years ago. I'm only in the store five minutes, never at the mall, and either running in the park, or behind my desk working.

This is where environment factors comes into play. Now, if I were in the city instead of next to the country that would be totally different-your point would be stronger.

Are you saying that you feel you don't need to get vaccinated because you live in a rural area and are rarely around other people?

From the context, though, because I asses the factors I've already stated, it's not in my immediate best interest to do so. If I do, I wouldn't be doing it for me

Do you believe your risk of encountering the COVID virus is effectively zero?

but peer pressure and that is something I don't want to do when it comes to my health. I rather social distance, wear a mask, and go running in the woods like I usually do.

I don't understand. If you do all those things, you're acknowledging that it's possible for you to encounter and be infected by the COVID virus. Yet you won't get vaccinated, even though you know you're putting others at greater risk.

Are you afraid of the vaccine?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Do you believe that there is not one person in the whole world who for health reasons cannot get the vaccine?

Vaccines, plural. Not one vaccine.

And it certainly seems that way, but I'm open to having my mind changed if you can show me real information. So far you haven't been able to identify any group who shouldn't get any of the vaccines.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I get that, but that's not a realistic expectation. Aren't you criticizing those that criticize the unvaccinated?

You don't like their behavior, and they don't like that of the unvaccinated. That's how people are. If you express an unpopular position in a public forum, you should expect to see some blowback. Nobody likes that, but it comes with the territory if one wants to participate in a public discussion with strangers. I think you know that. It's unrealistic to expect all others to either agree with you or be silent. It's their forum, too. You needn't have given your vaccination status, and shouldn't have if you didn't want to hear disagreement.

Well, it was a journal thread, so I was venting. Though, I get your point.

The thing I wonder is, if I can think and catch myself (doesn't always work), and change my behavior why can't others?

For example, its one thing to slip up and call unvaccinated people names, but it's another when they say they deserve it. One is a vent or slip up and the other they intentionally meant to insult.

I slip up sometimes, but I never mean to insult. Even with sarcasm, I bit my tongue cause I want to say it "outloud" but it stays in my head (not an RF thingy).

Makes me wonder. I guess I need a harder shell...but even then, I don't want my harsh experiences dictate how I should treat others.

But here you are arguing for acceptance of vaccine hesitancy from people that have told you that they view that choice as antisocial, dangerous to them and others, and based in fear and ignorance. It doesn't really matter if they're correct or not.

That's what many of these people think. You might benefit from having a more realistic idea of what you can get such people to agree with you about. Asking them to stop disesteeming and judging you is unrealistic. It's not what human nature is like, and some would argue that your expectations are also unfair. It asks them to censor themselves for your comfort when they feel passionately that what you are doing is wrong.

I don't want them to agree with me, though.

I find you a very agreeable and likeable person, and though I disagree with you, I don't want to make you feel bad. Yet I will give my opinion any way, because, like many others, I feel passionately about this matter. You are free to express your opinions, and I think you ought to respect the right of others to express theirs even if you consider them unkind.

I need a harder shell... just rather have it without needing building values that discredit other people and feel justified because of it.

There's only a couple on RF that it's hard to talk to when it comes to respect. A lot of people probably ignored me in regards to COVID convo, but those who aren't part of this group tend to be alright till near the end.

Yeah, I think so. You want behavior that others consider unacceptable to be accepted.

Incidentally, I'm not sure that you get what we are telling you. If you did, you would give up posting provocative opinions and expecting all others to accept them or remain silent.

The first part no.

The second part yes. I just disagree with some of it. Those parts I do agree with, and tell them repeatedly that I do, falls on deaf ears.

No. Why would they accept?

I would do my best to not be with unvaccinated people in confined spaces for extended periods of time. Others will also try to avoid being with them. This may lead to the vaccinated socializing together here and the unvaccinated getting together with their own. The unvaccinated would presumably be just as comfortable with a room full of fellow unvaccinated people as with vaccinated people.

I can see why. I don't agree with the morality of it-sounds like segregation-but with safety and all I can kinda see it.

If not, more the moral condemnation for refusing a vaccine. I don't think too many people would approve of an unvaccinated person shunning other unvaccinated people and preferring to be with the vaccinated.

People would prefer unvaccinated people to be with vaccinated people?

Could you rephrase? I disagree with shunning in general.

We can't insure that. The unvaccinated will be a risk to everybody else, and the more of them there are to incubate new variants, the greater the public health threat they represent. What can we do but try to avoid being with them for now?

I guess-with the question. I asked a couple of people here genuinely would they put us in our own town or island. How far does shunning go before ethics are involved?

They could be at risk. The level of risk depends. I'd say make decisions based on the level of risk and other factors not just being a risk. The latter sounds like fear, to be honest.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Given what you posted, plus how multiple other people have gotten the same impression, I'd say the issue is with how you're expressing yourself.

As it stands now, a lot of folks here are rather confused as to what your point is.

Sometimes I fall back on language issues, but I won't say it's completely my fault. If the topic was different, say about cars, and they had the same issue, that would make sense. There's a lot of emotionalism involved. If it were a non-personal decision then I don't believe this would even come up.

This is a good example. It reads to me like you're saying that you're at a higher risk because other people choose to get vaccinated.

You're at a higher risk simply because you're not vaccinated. That others are vaccinated doesn't change that.

I'm at a higher risk relative to those who lowered their risk. We haven't had more cases around here and in my area no deaths (and age, and so forth), so assessing my risks based on that, I'm not as much as people feel I am.

The risk is relative to the vaccinated person. We don't have cases in my immediate area (so know of) and no deaths. So, we're at a risk I just didn't lower it.

And by not taking the vaccine you're increasing your own risk level, as well as increasing the risk levels for lots of other people, and potentially even the rest of humanity. Yet you've not given a rational reason for doing so.

The possibility is open, yes.

I don't see it as increasing the risk of others-personally-because I'm not around people like that to increase their risk of catching COVID. If I get the vaccine, it would only be "just in case."

Rational? To who? I've given my reasons.

Are you saying that you feel you don't need to get vaccinated because you live in a rural area and are rarely around other people?

I'm near the mountains and in a less congested area that most people need cars to get places. But yeah, those are a few factors.

Do you believe your risk of encountering the COVID virus is effectively zero?

No.

I don't understand. If you do all those things, you're acknowledging that it's possible for you to encounter and be infected by the COVID virus. Yet you won't get vaccinated, even though you know you're putting others at greater risk.

Are you afraid of the vaccine?

Because my level of risk isn't high enough to concern me.

Here we go. Short and sweet.

No. I'm not afraid of the vaccine.