This may be a dumb question but...

[waitasec]

I don't think that Adam and Eve were punished for disobedience, I think they reaped the natural consequence of making the wrong choice.

do you take this story literally?

 

[Reine]

i disagree with this...
if you know the governing authorities are mistaken it has to be brought to their attention, otherwise there is no progress.

Well, yes That is why I told him that the laws should be obeyed, utill such a time comes that they are perfected. What I meant by that is that it would be brought to their attention and then corrected if the law is not good. Laws are to serve people, and people are not made to serve laws. People are served by laws when they obey them. If the law is corrupt, it must be modified.

 

[waitasec]

Well, yes That is why I told him that the laws should be obeyed, utill such a time comes that they are perfected. What I meant by that is that it would be brought to their attention and then corrected if the law is not good. Laws are to serve people, and people are not made to serve laws. People are served by laws when they obey them. If the law is corrupt, it must be modified.

protests... for example without those brave individuals who risk being arrested for the greater good...
they are met with an iron fist...

in the genesis story there is no mention of adam and eve asking "why?"
is it because it is understood that one just doesn't do such a thing and they are supposed to put up with it because an authority figure simply just says so?

as a parent, i would love if my child would stop disobeying me...but really, if he did stop...there would be something terribly wrong with him.

 

[Reine]

protests... for example without those brave individuals who risk being arrested for the greater good...
they are met with an iron fist...

in the genesis story there is no mention of adam and eve asking "why?"
is it because it is understood that one just doesn't do such a thing and they are supposed to put up with it because an authority figure simply just says so?

as a parent, i would love if my child would stop disobeying me...but really, if he did stop...there would be something terribly wrong with him.

When you are speaking of human law, there are times when people need to stand up to injustice. In the story of Genesis, we don't know if Adam or Eve asked why, because the story is an overview and doesn’t give the account of every thought or word that was spoken. It only gives an account of what the author wants you to focus on. The story, written by Patriarchal man, was not concerned with showing that Adam and Eve had to put up with any type of injustice by God. The story was supposed to relate to following the order in laws that would be in the best interest of those who followed them. I still think the story is to show the consequences of errant behavior and to show that we can do the right thing without having to learn from painful experiences. I have three children, and one learns through painful experiences (the boy with his hand in the cookie jar), while other one learns from listening and watching others mistakes. The last one is a combination. It’s only a story to glean whatever useful information you can. I guess I can’t really tell you what your inner truth is. That is for you to decide. I am telling what I learned..

 

[not nom]

Laws are to serve people, and people are not made to serve laws. People are served by laws when they obey them. If the law is corrupt, it must be modified.

:yes:

to say human secular law is divinely perfect, is wrong.

however, sometimes I'm thinking, that the biblical view may be "tyrants get punished for being tyrants, but people *still* get punished for rebelling, instead of leaving the punishment of tyrants to god"... and I have problems with that. my faith can't overcome my pride, and also my skepticism when it comes to such things in practice.

 

[Reine]

:yes:

to say human secular law is divinely perfect, is wrong.

however, sometimes I'm thinking, that the biblical view may be "tyrants get punished for being tyrants, but people *still* get punished for rebelling, instead of leaving the punishment of tyrants to god"... and I have problems with that. my faith can't overcome my pride, and also my skepticism when it comes to such things in practice.

Hi Nom, everyone balks at injustice, it is a natural response. It is also a good response that intiiates change in situations where change is needed. The difference between necessary resistance to unfair athorities and the Genesis story is the message that is being told is: Trust for God who loves us beyond measure, and is worthy of this trust. God is not an unfair tyrant that has mindless rules for us to follow. This is demonstrated when Jesus performed miricles on the Sabbath, declaring that 'The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. Mark 2:27

The problem comes in when man tries to use rules for self promotion, and uses them as a weapon that inflicts injustice onto others to prove selfish agenda. This is not of God, it is purely man who does this.

 

[Psalm57]

I'm no expert on this, but I'm of the impression that God could be seen until Adam and Eve were rebuked over that whole "fall" business.

Just a guess, but aren't there members of royalty through the ages who have referred to themselves, individually, as "we" and "us"?

Randon, do you not believe that God is Triune? When God uses the word "Us" it is because He is Triune. God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit and yet still One God.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Randon, do you not believe that God is Triune? When God uses the word "Us" it is because He is Triune. God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit and yet still One God.

Or... It's because the author really was referring to other gods. This is an ancient story; Judaism didn't start out monotheistic. In fact, much of the Old Testament seems to hint at henotheism: "there is only one God for the nation of Israel," not "there is only one God, period."

 

[Corkscrew]

I have been told, by a priest, that the stories in the Bible are to be taken literally. Now I am hearing that this story is to be taken metaphorically. I’m confused.

 

[SageTree]

I have little knowledge of the Bible so don't judge if it is dumb:

If God is all knowing, why did he ask Adam and Eve "Where art thou?" if he knew?

First chance to exercise the responsibilities of Free Will?


idk man.... its a pretty loaded sounding start to the thread

 

[Psalm57]

Or... It's because the author really was referring to other gods. This is an ancient story; Judaism didn't start out monotheistic. In fact, much of the Old Testament seems to hint at henotheism: "there is only one God for the nation of Israel," not "there is only one God, period."

I've never heard of this view before. that would be severely wrong. God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I've never heard of this view before. that would be severely wrong. God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Not to the people who wrote Genesis. The Trinity is a Christian concept.

Edit: but here's a bit more information that I was able to glean from a quick Googling:

The final editors of the Hebrew canon were fervent monotheists, but a remnant of the polytheistic basis of the pre-Mosaic religion can still be detected. Albrecht Alt has shown that divine titles such as 'El Bet' el (Gen. 31:13; 35:7); 'El 'Olam (Gen. 21:33); and 'El Ro'i (Gen. 16:13); 'El 'Elyon (Gen. 14:18); and 'El Saddai (Gen. 17:1); all later taken to be one God (Yahweh) after Moses, were all originally separate gods worshipped by the early Hebrews.3 The Catholic scholar Bruce Vawter concurs with Alt. According to Vawter, none of the available English translations does justice to the original Hebrew of Genesis 31:13, which quite simply reads "I am the god Bethel" ('El Bet'el), who was a member of the Canaanite pantheon along with the rest of the above.4 The original meaning is therefore quite different from the traditional understanding: this god at Bethel is not the universal Lord who appeared at Bethel but just one god among many – a local deity of a specific place.

In the mutual swearing of Jacob and Laban (Gen. 31:51f) it is clear that two distinct gods are referred to.5 The work of later editors is clearly evident in this passage. As Alt states: "Was it not plain paganism for the ancestor of Israel and one of his relations to swear by two different gods? This dangerous sentence had to be rendered harmless by an addition or alternation."6 In Judges 11:24 Jepthah recognizes the authority of the god Chemosh, at least for the Ammonites in their own land.

http://www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/henotheism.htm

If you do some searching for "Jewish Henotheism" or "Hebrew Henotheism", you should find many other sources talking about this issue.

 

[Psalm57]

Or... It's because the author really was referring to other gods. This is an ancient story; Judaism didn't start out monotheistic. In fact, much of the Old Testament seems to hint at henotheism: "there is only one God for the nation of Israel," not "there is only one God, period."

I disagree with your view. There is only one true God, not many. IMO.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I disagree with your view. There is only one true God, not many. IMO.

Whether one god - or many, or none - actually exists is a completely separate question to the one of how many gods the original authors of the Garden on Eden thought existed.

 

[Copernicus]

I disagree with your view. There is only one true God, not many. IMO.

It is ironic that some of the best evidence for henotheism comes from passages in Psalms. Some of the psalms existed almost verbatim in the polytheistic scripture of Ugarits, who lived far north of Hebrew territory in that region. What we can conclude from this is that the historical source of both the pagan and Hebrew Psalms was the same story--Semitic (not just Hebrew) folklore.

 

[gnostic]

Actually, the serpent is the bad guy in the Gilgamesh tale too: Gilgamesh Summary (very last paragraph).

The summary is inaccurate, quagmire, if the author states that the snake is good or evil. Having read the actual epic, it say nothing about the snake being "bad". The snake act like any animal - that is iit would take easy or unguarded food.

Gilgamesh retrieves an herb from the bottom of the ocean that's supposed to impart immortality to it's user, but before Gilgamesh gets a chance to try it out, a serpent sneaks up on him while he's asleep and eats it.

Again, the summary is inaccurate.

First of all, Gilgamesh wasn't sleeping when he lost the magical plant. :no: Gilgamesh was bathing when the snake took and ate the plant.

Second, the plant didn't give immortality to anything or anyone who ate it. :no: The thorny plant that Gilgamesh retrieved from the sea would have made the hero into a young man again - strong, healthy and vigorous.

As*Utanapishtim had explained to the hero earlier, Utanapishtim and his wife would be the last mortals to become gods. So no immortality.

The plant would only restore former youth to Gilgamesh, as well as reinvigorate him. Utanapishtim's wife took pity on the hero and said that Gilgamesh deserve some rewards for traveling such distance to reach her husband, since immortality was barred from the hero. For when Gilgamesh came to him he looked "exhausted" and "worn out".

The epic is a myth that tried to explain why snake shed its old skin with a more younger skin beneath. This myth used this magical plant as motif to explain what is actually a natural phenomena of the snake's life cycle.

All I am saying is that whoever wrote this summary, didn't do a good job at it.

 

[4consideration]

I have little knowledge of the Bible so don't judge if it is dumb:

If God is all knowing, why did he ask Adam and Eve "Where art thou?" if he knew?

__________________________

In my understanding of the Book of Genesis, the story of Adam and Eve is a representation of Mankind leaving a heart-centered state of being (Garden of Eden) and entering a mind-dominated state of being.

The transgression of eating of The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was not that we should not learn the difference between right and wrong. But, that the mind is the wrong tool to use. It's function is to perform logic -- and will therefore approach the subject of right and wrong in a polarized way. It will simply judge (usually others.) It is not that there is anything wrong with the Mind, but that it is supposed to be the servant of the heart. When the mind dominates, there is much pain and a sense of separation from oneself, God, and all that is.

There is a wisdom contained in the heart that allows a person to approach the subject of right and wrong with Love and Compassion and seeking workable solutions in life.

To me, God asking, "Where art thou?" is simply a confirmation that they themselves had created their separation from God -- not the other way around. If I am remembering the story correctly, they were attempting to hide from God at the time. He was simply acknowledging it.

 

[4consideration]

If a mess happens despite the fact that the parent could have easily prevented it, then this is evidence that the parent didn't really care about preventing the mess.

____________________________________

Perhaps the parent thought it more important to teach the child about cause and effect, instead of shielding the child from having an opportunity to realize that if you make a mess, you have to clean it up.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I have been told, by a priest, that the stories in the Bible are to be taken literally. Now I am hearing that this story is to be taken metaphorically. I’m confused.

Your priest is obviously not up on the latest fashions. Tell him to start reading the internet to get the truth about religion.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

____________________________________

Perhaps the parent thought it more important to teach the child about cause and effect, instead of shielding the child from having an opportunity to realize that if you make a mess, you have to clean it up.

I don't see how this goes against what I said. In that case, the parent cares more about teaching a lesson than preventing the immediate mess.

However, if we keep applying this analogy, then since in the Eden story the parent simply throws the children out on the street and locks the door behind them, never to let them back into the house again, I'd question just how much "teaching" is going on in this scenario.