This thread is so gay

[Just_me_Mike]

Or it could be that you're over-sensitive....like it or not.

One of my favorite anti-gay scenes in Modern Family....
[youtube]qryAuCTK3uk[/youtube]
YouTube - Shout

Over sensitive in a way that detects truisms that bigots miss sure, I agree.
I'm not gay, but I see how using the word as such is akin to N word jokes 40 years ago, mind you maybe not quite as harsh.

Success will be achieved when the word gay is simply not thought of when a guy driving a yellow beetle with plates that read sassy passes by, and no judgment is thought of with regard to a group of people.

 

[Revoltingest]

Success will be achieved when the word gay is simply not thought of when a guy driving a yellow beetle with plates that read sassy passes by, and no judgment is thought of with regard to a group of people.

No....success will be when whatever differences they have as a group will result in no violence, loss or other suffering.
I doubt they will ever become indistinguishable from heteros, nor should they have to. Celebrate the differences.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

No....success will be when whatever differences they have as a group will result in no violence, loss or other suffering.
I doubt they will ever become indistinguishable from heteros, nor should they have to. Celebrate the differences.

"that's so gay" is now a celebration technique?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Oh, well, that wouldn't be a problem with my mental math. I see what you're saying, but those are a little bit different. The difference is in the case of the use of "gay", the people who are using the phrase are more likely to accept homosexuality than those who don't use the phrase. The phrase is mostly used by young people, and younger generations are much more LGBT-friendly than older generations. So, they're using this phrase more and more and they're the ones also accepting homosexuality more and more. What would be interesting is a poll asking how many people who use the phrase "that's so gay" fully support gay rights and accept the LGBT community as they would any other. I'd bet a large percentage of them would say yes.

You're comparing apples and oranges. Do you think that, on average, young people who use the phrase "that's so gay" are more accepting of homosexuality than young people who refuse to use the phrase because they consider it offensive?

And I think you're just latching onto a difference in terminology. If you count all the older people who use the term "sissy" (which I'd say is the older equivalent) in with the younger people who use the phrase "that's so gay", you'd get a very different picture of their level of acceptance of homosexuality.

Essentially it's possible that society has become more accepting of homosexuality in spite of the use of this phrase, but when young people are the ones using it and young people are the ones accepting homosexuality more, and the ones using the phrase are also accepting of homosexuality, it calls into question whether it has any negative impact at all. Is there anything to indicate conclusively that it does have a negative impact on the acceptance of the LGBT community?

Sure, there's plenty. You can find many, many individual stories from people describing how hearing the term made them feel here: Think before you speak. Don't say "That's So Gay."

And here's a telling quote from a story about a court case over a school punishing a child for using the term. Note the bit I've highlighted at the end:

Eliza Byard, deputy executive director of the New York-based Gay, Lesbian and Straight Education Network, said nearly nine out of 10 gay students her organization surveyed in 2005 reported hearing "That's so gay" or "You're so gay" frequently.

"It bothers them a lot," Byard said. "As odd or funny as the phrase sounds, imagine what it feels like to be in a setting where you consistently hear it used to describe something undesirable or stupid, and it also refers to you."

She said it is OK to discipline students for using the phrase after efforts have been made to educate them.

"The job of a school is to deal proactively and consistently with all forms of bullying, name-calling and harassment," she said.

Jordan Lorence, an attorney with the Alliance Defense Fund, a Christian legal organization, agreed "That's so gay" carries a negative meaning and said he would not want his children to say it. But he said formal discipline is not the answer.

‘That’s so gay’ prompts student lawsuit - US news - Life - msnbc.com

Now... just for perspective: on this issue, your position is less tolerant than that of the organization that created the anti-gay "Day of Truth"!

Just to repeat: even the organization that champions the right to wear t-shirts saying "homosexuality is shameful" in public schools agrees that "that's so gay" is a negative expression!

Is this really the side you want to be on?

 

[Just_me_Mike]

You're comparing apples and oranges. Do you think that, on average, young people who use the phrase "that's so gay" are more accepting of homosexuality than young people who refuse to use the phrase because they consider it offensive?

And I think you're just latching onto a difference in terminology. If you count all the older people who use the term "sissy" (which I'd say is the older equivalent) in with the younger people who use the phrase "that's so gay", you'd get a very different picture of their level of acceptance of homosexuality.


Sure, there's plenty. You can find many, many individual stories from people describing how hearing the term made them feel here: Think before you speak. Don't say "That's So Gay."

And here's a telling quote from a story about a court case over a school punishing a child for using the term. Note the bit I've highlighted at the end:


‘That’s so gay’ prompts student lawsuit - US news - Life - msnbc.com

Now... just for perspective: on this issue, your position is less tolerant than that of the organization that created the anti-gay "Day of Truth"!

Just to repeat: even the organization that champions the right to wear t-shirts saying "homosexuality is shameful" in public schools agrees that "that's so gay" is a negative expression!

Is this really the side you want to be on?

but it's just amongst his friends I tell you. His bubble justifies it!

 

[*Anne*]

Hi Anne, what did gay mean in that context. I'm just curious thanks.

He used is so many times, I had to think about it for a minute...

He wasn't referring to something as "stupid," but something and someone as being extremely effeminate. I believe he said, "His was the gayest house I have ever seen!" and "The bathroom was so gay, I had to leave!" The whole time, he was rolling his eyes, and it was clear he was mocking it a bit.

So it wasn't negative in the nastiest of ways, but it wasn't super positive either.

I have to run, but I'll be back to check this thread later tonight.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

He used is so many times, I had to think about it for a minute...

He wasn't referring to something as "stupid," but something and someone as being extremely effeminate. I believe he said, "His was the gayest house I have ever seen!" and "The bathroom was so gay, I had to leave!" The whole time, he was rolling his eyes, and it was clear he was mocking it a bit.

So it wasn't negative in the nastiest of ways, but it wasn't super positive either.

I have to run, but I'll be back to check this thread later tonight.

So sensibly it would be correct to assume this doesn't help in getting the word gay to be viewed as a positive word. That is my point with your friend, gay or not.
Mball I can't quite figure why he values the word in such ways...

 

[Magic Man]

You're comparing apples and oranges. Do you think that, on average, young people who use the phrase "that's so gay" are more accepting of homosexuality than young people who refuse to use the phrase because they consider it offensive?

No, but young people who use the phrase are more likely to be accepting of homosexuality than people who don't use the phrase (but don't refuse to use it because they find it offensive).

And I think you're just latching onto a difference in terminology. If you count all the older people who use the term "sissy" (which I'd say is the older equivalent) in with the younger people who use the phrase "that's so gay", you'd get a very different picture of their level of acceptance of homosexuality.

Maybe, but that's irrelevant. The whole point here is this particular terminology. We're not concerned with "sissy". We're concerned with "that's so gay". The point is a lot of young people use the phrase, and I'd bet a vast majority of them have no problem with homosexuality.

Sure, there's plenty. You can find many, many individual stories from people describing how hearing the term made them feel here: Think before you speak. Don't say "That's So Gay."

And here's a telling quote from a story about a court case over a school punishing a child for using the term. Note the bit I've highlighted at the end:


‘That’s so gay’ prompts student lawsuit - US news - Life - msnbc.com

Now... just for perspective: on this issue, your position is less tolerant than that of the organization that created the anti-gay "Day of Truth"!

Just to repeat: even the organization that champions the right to wear t-shirts saying "homosexuality is shameful" in public schools agrees that "that's so gay" is a negative expression!

Is this really the side you want to be on?

OK, this is all missing the point. I'm not arguing about whether some people might be offended by the phrase. What I'm arguing is that it doesn't have a negative effect on the acceptance of homosexuality. My question was whether or not there's evidence that the use of this phrase has a negative effect on society's acceptance of homosexuality. Our society has used this phrase more and more over the past decade or so, and over that same decade, our society has become much more LGBT-friendly. What that indicates to me is that people can understand the difference between using "gay" in this way and its other meaning.

I would rather you address those points rather than accuse me of intolerance and explain the obvious point that some people find this phrase offensive.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Mball I can't quite figure why he values the word in such ways...

It puzzles me why people make such a big deal out of using it as well.

Regardless of one's position on whether people should be offended by it or not, hopefully it's obvious that some people will feel hurt if you do. OTOH, it's not like there's any pressing need to use it; there's no sentiment you can express with "that's so gay" that you can't express just as well with some other choice of words.

There's no upside in using it, but plenty of downside. It makes no sense.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

No, but young people who use the phrase are more likely to be accepting of homosexuality than people who don't use the phrase (but don't refuse to use it because they find it offensive).



Maybe, but that's irrelevant. The whole point here is this particular terminology. We're not concerned with "sissy". We're concerned with "that's so gay". The point is a lot of young people use the phrase, and I'd bet a vast majority of them have no problem with homosexuality.



OK, this is all missing the point. I'm not arguing about whether some people might be offended by the phrase. What I'm arguing is that it doesn't have a negative effect on the acceptance of homosexuality. My question was whether or not there's evidence that the use of this phrase has a negative effect on society's acceptance of homosexuality. Our society has used this phrase more and more over the past decade or so, and over that same decade, our society has become much more LGBT-friendly. What that indicates to me is that people can understand the difference between using "gay" in this way and its other meaning.

I would rather you address those points rather than accuse me of intolerance and explain the obvious point that some people find this phrase offensive.

So as black jokes were on the rise in the 60's you don't think black equality was also on the rise? Why do you equate the use of a phrase against a people and the peoples acceptance in society interchangeably, or as a way to bolster the usage of phrase that is ignorant and offensive?

 

[Magic Man]

It puzzles me why people make such a big deal out of using it as well.

Regardless of one's position on whether people should be offended by it or not, hopefully it's obvious that some people will feel hurt if you do. OTOH, it's not like there's any pressing need to use it; there's no sentiment you can express with "that's so gay" that you can't express just as well with some other choice of words.

There's no upside in using it, but plenty of downside. It makes no sense.

No one is arguing that it's necessary for communication. Of course it's not. Dirty jokes and jokes about racial stereotypes aren't necessary for communication either. But they have their place. If you think you're around people who would be offended by a blonde joke, then don't tell it. If you think you're around people who would be offended by "that's so gay", then don't use it. It's very simple.

 

[Magic Man]

So as black jokes were on the rise in the 60's you don't think black equality was also on the rise? Why do you equate the use of a phrase against a people and the peoples acceptance in society interchangeably, or as a way to bolster the usage of phrase that is ignorant and offensive?

Can you rephrase? I don't know how to respond as written.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, but young people who use the phrase are more likely to be accepting of homosexuality than people who don't use the phrase (but don't refuse to use it because they find it offensive).

So? This is irrelevant if the question at hand is whether I, an individual should choose to use the phrase or not. No matter how many crotchety, bigoted old men don't use the expression, I'm not going to magically morph into a crotchety, bigoted old man by not saying it.

Maybe, but that's irrelevant. The whole point here is this particular terminology. We're not concerned with "sissy". We're concerned with "that's so gay". The point is a lot of young people use the phrase, and I'd bet a vast majority of them have no problem with homosexuality.

I'd disagree, actually. I think homophobia is still a significant problem, even among young people.

OK, this is all missing the point. I'm not arguing about whether some people might be offended by the phrase. What I'm arguing is that it doesn't have a negative effect on the acceptance of homosexuality.

And I think that it's obvious that it does have a negative effect.

Have a look at that site and some of the first-hand stories there. One use of the expression isn't likely to drive a gay kid to suicide, but it does contribute to a negative environment for gay kids.

BTW - is offense a negative effect? Is feeling hurt a negative effect? Does it help or hurt actual acceptance of homosexuality when real, live gay people are made to feel unaccepted because of their orientation?

My question was whether or not there's evidence that the use of this phrase has a negative effect on society's acceptance of homosexuality. Our society has used this phrase more and more over the past decade or so, and over that same decade, our society has become much more LGBT-friendly. What that indicates to me is that people can understand the difference between using "gay" in this way and its other meaning.

What it indicates to me is that societal acceptance of homosexuality has increased so much that oblivious use of hurtful expressions hasn't stopped it. This doesn't mean that things wouldn't be better if people put more thought into what they say.

I would rather you address those points rather than accuse me of intolerance and explain the obvious point that some people find this phrase offensive.

These two things are directly related. When you do things that create feelings of unacceptance and isolation, you are working against acceptance. You might work for it in other ways, but on this issue, you're on the wrong side.

BTW - I'd like to hear your response to the point I raised in my reply to Mike: why is this such a big deal for you? You know that the expression is going to be taken as hurtful to a significant number of people; why use it? What do you get out of it?

 

[Just_me_Mike]

No one is arguing that it's necessary for communication. Of course it's not. Dirty jokes and jokes about racial stereotypes aren't necessary for communication either. But they have their place. If you think you're around people who would be offended by a blonde joke, then don't tell it. If you think you're around people who would be offended by "that's so gay", then don't use it. It's very simple.

Dirty jokes... This is getting ridiculous. As my first post in this thread said, it is nice to know you are so open about you little world. Say no more, unless you gotta a great gay joke to share since we are among friends... Ha ha

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No one is arguing that it's necessary for communication. Of course it's not. Dirty jokes and jokes about racial stereotypes aren't necessary for communication either. But they have their place.

What place is that?

Seriously - can you tell me a context in which the expression "that's so gay" would ever be appropriate?

If you think you're around people who would be offended by a blonde joke, then don't tell it. If you think you're around people who would be offended by "that's so gay", then don't use it. It's very simple.

That didn't really answer the question. I can understand plenty of reasons why the expression shouldn't be used; what I want to know is this: even if you're in a situation where you can be sure that nobody around you would be offended by it (a situation that is completely fictitious, BTW), what reason would you have to use it? What would you get out of it?

At any given point in time, there are any number of things I could say that probably wouldn't cause offense to anyone around me, but I still don't say them. I only say the things that I think will convey some sort of meaning or fulfil a purpose that I'm interested in.

What purpose does saying "that's so gay" fill that other expressions don't?

 

[Just_me_Mike]

It makes him laugh, he has already said that a few times...

 

[Magic Man]

So? This is irrelevant if the question at hand is whether I, an individual should choose to use the phrase or not. No matter how many crotchety, bigoted old men don't use the expression, I'm not going to magically morph into a crotchety, bigoted old man by not saying it.

I'm not saying anything like that. I'm saying younger people are more likely to use the phrase and more likely to accept homosexuality.

I'd disagree, actually. I think homophobia is still a significant problem, even among young people.

Oh, I agree. I'm saying even among young people who use this phrase, I would expect most of them to accept homosexuality.

And I think that it's obvious that it does have a negative effect.

Have a look at that site and some of the first-hand stories there. One use of the expression isn't likely to drive a gay kid to suicide, but it does contribute to a negative environment for gay kids.

BTW - is offense a negative effect? Is feeling hurt a negative effect? Does it help or hurt actual acceptance of homosexuality when real, live gay people are made to feel unaccepted because of their orientation?

OK, you're still missing the key phrase "acceptance of homosexuality". Again, I'm sure it has a negative effect as far as people being offended by it, but that's not what I'm talking about.

What it indicates to me is that societal acceptance of homosexuality has increased so much that oblivious use of hurtful expressions hasn't stopped it. This doesn't mean that things wouldn't be better if people put more thought into what they say.

These two things are directly related. When you do things that create feelings of unacceptance and isolation, you are working against acceptance. You might work for it in other ways, but on this issue, you're on the wrong side.

Do you think blonde jokes and jokes about ethnic stereotypes should never be told?

BTW - I'd like to hear your response to the point I raised in my reply to Mike: why is this such a big deal for you? You know that the expression is going to be taken as hurtful to a significant number of people; why use it? What do you get out of it?

I assume you posted this before seeing my response. Did that cover it, or would you like me to elaborate?

 

[Magic Man]

Dirty jokes... This is getting ridiculous. As my first post in this thread said, it is nice to know you are so open about you little world. Say no more, unless you gotta a great gay joke to share since we are among friends... Ha ha

It's funny to me that this is the level of response from you, yet you accuse me of being the one not listening and being in my own little world. Get a mirror.

 

[Magic Man]

What place is that?

Seriously - can you tell me a context in which the expression "that's so gay" would ever be appropriate?

Sure. When my wife and I are watching hockey and they just can't stop gushing about Sidney Crosby, for instance.

That didn't really answer the question. I can understand plenty of reasons why the expression shouldn't be used; what I want to know is this: even if you're in a situation where you can be sure that nobody around you would be offended by it (a situation that is completely fictitious, BTW), what reason would you have to use it? What would you get out of it?

At any given point in time, there are any number of things I could say that probably wouldn't cause offense to anyone around me, but I still don't say them. I only say the things that I think will convey some sort of meaning or fulfil a purpose that I'm interested in.

What purpose does saying "that's so gay" fill that other expressions don't?

What purpose do cuss words fulfill that other expressions don't? Sure, we could just use one word or phrase for each thing, and have no linguistic diversity, but that gets boring. The reason for using this phrase is the same as using "gorgeous" instead of "beautiful".

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Do you think blonde jokes and jokes about ethnic stereotypes should never be told?
?

Oh sure, among your circle of friends that are accepting of such things "wink-wink".

All bashing aside, what you're basically saying is "come on guys why be so serious, what's a little race joke here or there, or a little gay joke here or there?" "It's not like I really mean them or believe them, it's just fun sometimes."

I get it Mball, no problem, it is just like remembering the good ol days, when we could tell jokes about 3 Jews that walk into a bar, or about pollocks, etc.

Ahh the good ol days.

I'll admit Chris Rock tells some racy jokes, and while I think they are funny at times, there is a limit he crosses, yet as you say, no laws are broken, and some people are cool with it. Complicated issue, as evidenced from this discussion.