This thread is so gay

[Primordial Annihilator]

Smoke is one of the people on the forum I really like and respect.

Well that is different I guess.

Still isnt your fault.

 

[Revoltingest]

Are we arguing about something?

Not that I know of. Tis only that my approval of your thread might have a tarnishing effect.

I feel the thread was badly worded.
And I feel badly that this seems to have pushed people like Smoke into a decision to discontinue posting here.

The most interesting threads aren't always the most comfortable ones. Smoke's issues are his own....not your fault or
responsibility. But we test the waters...some things turn out satisfying, while others are too difficult to repeat.
How else can you be who you are if you never did what you've done? This makes you one of the more interesting ones.

 

[Alceste]

That's exactly what it's saying. If we said "That's so British" to mean "That's so uncool", doesn't that insinuate some connection with British being uncool? I don't see how you can argue that it doesn't.

It's more like saying "Gross - these chips are limey."

IOW, same word, more than one meaning. The magic of language.

 

[Alceste]

I have gay friends and relatives and they do use it, but I think maybe there is probably some unconscious element of controlling it by being the first one to say it.

Or maybe they're honestly not bothered. IMO, the repressive / conformist impulse that drives us to endlessly hair-split over the offensiveness of particular words is the self-same repressive / conformist impulse that once drove everyone - even homosexuals - to pretend there was no such thing as homosexuality. I believe it is possible to reject that neurotic impulse, even as I tailor my speech to most effectively communicate my meaning to whoever I'm talking to. For example, I can't ever use the c-word in a conversation with grandma, but with Wampus I use it all the time to describe people like Nick Clegg.

As a general rule, I worry more about the actual bigotry I might be housing than the appearance of bigotry. I also trust my gay friends to point it out to me if I'm acting like too much of a redneck. (I am from Alberta after all).

 

[Alceste]

How do you think African-Americans would respond if we started using "That's so black" to mean that something has something wrong with it?

Black people don't own the word "black". Black even has other definitions: it is the color that absorbs all light. But, do you think it really is innocent to suddenly ascribe a new, derogatory definition to the word "black"?

But we do - "it was a black day", "she was in a black mood", "his expression darkened", "the incident coloured his reputation"...

If you want to avoid any and all descriptive words that have an etymology rooted in xenophobia and bigotry, you have a heck if a task in front of you. We are, after all, stupid little monkeys who inherently fear and distrust the "other". All our behavior, language included, is filled with evidence. If we spend too much energy trying to purge dodgy, bigoted words from the English lexicon we might have none left over to fight the haphazard dropping of bombs on our Muslim brothers and sisters.

 

[Revoltingest]

That's so Canadian.

 

[Alceste]

That's so Canadian.

That's tête carrée to you.

 

[Madhuri]

I have gay friends and relatives and they do use it, but I think maybe there is probably some unconscious element of controlling it by being the first one to say it.

Hmm, I really wouldn't know about that.

Yeh, I wish Smoke didn't go. I like him too. And this discourse is both interesting and important, so I think it is a good thread.

I really wish he'd read my post about culture. I think there's a lot more to this than just some sort of discrimination. This is not the same using the word 'black' in a derogatory sense.

So many factors come into play when judging the meaning of a word of behaviour.

I think I used a good example earlier, with the word that literally means 'illegitimate child' but is used differently in colloquial language. When people use that word in a derogatory context, they are not even thinking about illegitimate children and illegitimate children do not get offended by the use of that word.

I think that is a more accurate comparison to the use of the word 'gay' than the use of the word 'black' in the context of contemporary culture.

 

[blackout]

I always thought "that's so gay"
stamped all over everything and anything
sounded childish and rather moronic.
You know... What does that even mean?!

Now the other day my kids said
"Sponge Bob is so Gay".
and, they meant it. literally.
and I laughed, because in "a stereotypical way"
he is, "so gay".
But this was descriptive.
Not derogatory.
(unless I guess you find Sponge Bob to be a derogatory character)

My kids actually dislike the whole "that's so gay" thing also.
They don't say it, because (besides meaning nothing)
they feel it might be hurtful.
My two older children are really very sensitive/caring
regarding GLBT acceptance.
It's always better to err on the side of love.
Choose our words with care.

Smoke, from the bottom of my heart,
I do hope you will come back.

Many of us here love and esteme you.
When people don't have to live it themSelves,
they often times really don't get it.
People usually don't mean to be insensitive.
I'd like to think this is true anyway.

 

[Magic Man]

There is no true need for the usage of this phrase, nor is there any benefit derived from it. If there were, then perhaps it would be reasonable to risk the possible harm.

There is no true need for many of the words we use, but there is a benefit derived from this one, namely expressing a particular idea that other words don't quite express.

I understand that this is possible. Here is where we part ways: The majority of people don't make the distinction. They use the phrase "that's so gay" because they think that being gay is an undesirable trait. Because this connection is still so fresh and predominant, is precisely why we should avoid using this terminology, to avoid feeding into that connection inadverdantly.

How do you know that's why they use the phrase? As I've said, at least most of the people I know who have used it don't think being gay is an undesirable trait.

But it's not like it's a surprise that using gay as a derogatory term could be offensive and harmful to the gay community. That's why your comment is a red herring, unless you have something comparable in mind. We're not talking about an obscure word that only 2 people will find offensive. We're talking about a very popular phrase that can be hurtful to a large persecuted group of people.

You're missing the point. You're saying I shouldn't use it because of the possible offense it could cause. I'm saying I'd have to stop using almost all words to avoid possible offense to someone.

Children born out of wedlock aren't fighting for their rights now. Gay people are.

And again you miss the point. And again, as I've said, even with the proliferation of the use of this phrase, gay people are gaining equal rights pretty quickly. Obviously not quickly enough, but out culture has moved heavily towards acceptance of them while simultaneously using that phrase.

 

[Revoltingest]

The phrase is discussed in this news piece.
First Openly Gay Racehorse To Compete Sunday | The Onion - America's Finest News Source | Onion News Network

 

[Revoltingest]

That's tête carrée to you.

????? No habla jibber jabber.

 

[Falvlun]

But we do - "it was a black day", "she was in a black mood", "his expression darkened", "the incident coloured his reputation"...

Agreed, that was a poor choice as example, but your limey one didn't work either.

If you want to avoid any and all descriptive words that have an etymology rooted in xenophobia and bigotry, you have a heck if a task in front of you. We are, after all, stupid little monkeys who inherently fear and distrust the "other". All our behavior, language included, is filled with evidence. If we spend too much energy trying to purge dodgy, bigoted words from the English lexicon we might have none left over to fight the haphazard dropping of bombs on our Muslim brothers and sisters.

Both you and mball are barking up this tree, but, with all due respect, it's just so much hyperbolic, alarmist, red herring drivel.

I am not talking about a derogatory word that once upon a time was used to describe a group of people that was once upon a time persecuted. I am talking about a word that is used in a negative way now with direct, recent ties to the current, negative mentality about a group of people who are still being persecuted.

 

[Magic Man]

Both you and mball are barking up this tree, but, with all due respect, it's just so much hyperbolic, alarmist, red herring drivel.

I am not talking about a derogatory word that once upon a time was used to describe a group of people that was once upon a time persecuted. I am talking about a word that is used in a negative way now with direct, recent ties to the current, negative mentality about a group of people who are still being persecuted.

The point is that not using a word because it might be offensive to some people, even though no offense is intended, isn't the best way to go.

 

[Falvlun]

The point is that not using a word because it might be offensive to some people, even though no offense is intended, isn't the best way to go.

And, as I've said before, it's not about offense. That truly is the least of my concerns. I'm concerned about hurting the gay community and their cause; about making a gay person feel less safe; about perpetuating the connection between gayness and undesirableness. Those are the reasons why I don't think this phrase should be used. Offense has little to do with it.

 

[Magic Man]

And, as I've said before, it's not about offense. That truly is the least of my concerns.

OK, then you were making the wrong argument.

I'm concerned about hurting the gay community and their cause; about making a gay person feel less safe; about perpetuating the connection between gayness and undesirableness. Those are the reasons why I don't think this phrase should be used. Offense has little to do with it.

OK, well, since I'm not hurting the gay community or their cause or making them feel less safe or perpetuating the connection between gayness and undesirableness, I guess it's OK for me to use it.

 

[no-body]

I have little opinion on this one way or the other as I think it's incredibly stupid to think of some words as "bad" or inappropriate.

But who knows? It was once common for people to use the N-word like it was no big deal, back in the day it was what "gay" is today used in every other sentence by pretty much everyone.

I don't see a problem with getting dumb-*** teenagers to stop saying it, but I'm sure something else equally as offensive will take it's place. I think the real solution would be to teach people to be classier and use their language better. If you've ever heard a "swearist" you'd hear some people are incredibly talented at using swear words appropriately.

 

[Falvlun]

OK, then you were making the wrong argument.

How so? This is the argument I've been making the entire time.

OK, well, since I'm not hurting the gay community or their cause or making them feel less safe or perpetuating the connection between gayness and undesirableness, I guess it's OK for me to use it.

That's precisely where we differ: just by using the phrase you are doing, and have the potential of doing, exactly those things. That is my position. We disagree. Obviously.

 

[Alceste]

I have little opinion on this one way or the other as I think it's incredibly stupid to think of some words as "bad" or inappropriate.

But who knows? It was once common for people to use the N-word like it was no big deal, back in the day it was what "gay" is today used in every other sentence by pretty much everyone.

I don't see a problem with getting dumb-*** teenagers to stop saying it, but I'm sure something else equally as offensive will take it's place. I think the real solution would be to teach people to be classier and use their language better. If you've ever heard a "swearist" you'd hear some people are incredibly talented at using swear words appropriately.

I agree. I swear, hopefully appropriately. The question is what is "appropriate". If you're sensitive to the mood of people around you, you can generally get away with more political incorrectness. If you're bad at reading people, maybe it's best to censor yourself all the time if you wish to avoid offending anyone.

 

[Alceste]

????? No habla jibber jabber.

Then you can call me a hose-head.