Those who believe there is no God live by faith

[3rdAngel]

Belief is a choice only for those that think irrationally. Most nonbelievers do not believe due to a lack of evidence. In fact the logical response to unsupported claims is a lack of belief. You implied by your poor reasoning that your beliefs are a choice, and therefore irrational.

Either way a belief that is not supported by evidence is based on faith. If you cannot prove there is no God or there is no existence of God and you have no evidence that belief is simply your faith because you have no evidence that God does not exist

 

[3rdAngel]

No.
No. Let me ask you - if someone tells you that there is an invisible, magical dragon-spirit living underneath your home, and you tell them "I don't believe you" - is your non-belief "simply another religion that is based on faith and not evidence?" Is it? Think hard now.

Of course not. Your example does not fit the definition of religion go look it up. Now you have quoted an individual case. Now use the same logic and apply it to billions of people. If 1/3 of the worlds population say that God is real and he has manifested himself to them personally. What would your response be? Think hard now. Do you close your mind or is it opened to the possibility that there may be a God especially if you cannot prove that God does not exist?

 

[3rdAngel]

The irrationality and sheer nonsense we see from our fundy friends when they try to argue against evolution seems to me a very direct reflection of what goes into their religious beliefs.

I would suggest you are judged by your own words

 

[3rdAngel]

To the religious it is, but to one who actually knows
what it is to be an atheist, it is not. But do tell how belief and acceptance are different.

Athiesm says in his heart there is no God then again according to the scriptures so does the fool.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I am not sure if you were trying to apologise for being dishonest or if your trying to justify it TBH. Anyhow I will take it as you agree that you said in your own words you do not believe in God and you do not believe in the existence of God.

I was not dishonest. Please if you could be honest you would see your error.

Do you think that you can have an honest discussion? That means you need to acknowledge your errors when they are pointed out to you. You also need to answer questions when asked. That is part of an honest discussion.

First question do you understand the difference between a lack of belief and a belief of nonexistence?

 

[3rdAngel]

@Everyone sorry just woke up and I have only hit pge 11. I think I am too far behind now. I may not get to everyone but will post when I can. I have to go out again now. Give me a nudge if I have missed you and you would like a response. All the best

 

[Subduction Zone]

Once again this is simply a distraction. The point being made was simply just because you cannot see something does not mean it is not there and does not exist.

Again, not necessarily so. You do not understand the logical argument properly. Lack of evidence is not necessarily evidence of nonexistence. If an event would leave clear evidence behind a lack of evidence is evidence against that event or belief. That is how we know that the Noah's Ark story is a myth. It would have left endless clear evidence that it happened, but there is no such evidence to be found. That tells us that it did not happen.

If you need a link to explain this to you further I can provide one, but this is another logical concept that you fail at understanding.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Athiesm says in his heart there is no God then again according to the scriptures so does the fool.

Nope, that is a falsehood. The one place that an atheist would not use to say anything about God (at least for a rational atheist) is in his heart. By the way, that verse is just as true if someone says "The fool says in his heart 'there is a God'."

 

[Subduction Zone]

Either way a belief that is not supported by evidence is based on faith. If you cannot prove there is no God or there is no existence of God and you have no evidence that belief is simply your faith because you have no evidence that God does not exist

But it is not a belief for most atheists. Here you were complaining about honesty and you cannot be honest enough to understand that a lack of belief is not a belief.

I lack a belief in God because there is no reliable evidence for one. Give me some evidence and then you might be able to claim that my belief or lack of it is irrational.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Of course not. Your example does not fit the definition of religion go look it up.

And atheism does? Let's find a definition and see:

a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

• Each individual atheist does have a set of beliefs... but all atheists are all different, and can be on every other issue. Just mounds and mounds of difference. There is no core set of beliefs, nor does there need to be. It is not a cohesive group, nor does it try to be.
• There are no "devotional" or "ritual" observances either. Nothing even close that you can attribute to atheists.
• There is also no moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. Atheists can disagree on anything and everything (except one thing) and still be atheists.

What you're missing here is some "core" doctrine or beliefs that are common among atheists. The only thing they have to do is say "I don't believe you" to any and all claims of the existence of deity. That's it, and you're in. And nobody even necessarily cares that you are in, and no one is going to "kick you out" or claim you "aren't doing it right" unless you believe in a god. That's it. Not a religion. NOT.

Now you have quoted an individual case. Now use the same logic and apply it to billions of people. If 1/3 of the worlds population say that God is real and he has manifested himself to them personally. What would your response be? Think hard now.

My response would be no different than it is now. I didn't have to "think hard" at all. Millions to billions of people used to also believe that the world was flat -the vast majority of humanity during a certain span of time in fact. Does it make it more true that the Earth is flat because so many people believed it? Boo hoo for you... no. Sorry, it doesn't. It doesn't matter how many people claim it IF THEY CAN'T DEMONSTRATE IT. Doesn't matter.

Do you close your mind or is it opened to the possibility that there may be a God especially if you cannot prove that God does not exist?

Here you are, assuming that I care about the negative connotations of the phrase "closed-minded." If closed-minded means that I withhold belief in extraordinary claims until evidence is produced or made available to me, then yep... count me as "closed minded." I'm closed minded in that respect for sure. Now what have you got? Based on your reply I have no choice but to surmise that you've got nothing.

 

[lukethethird]

Yet here you are not able to prove your claims. As all religions rely on faith for their belief in God all those who belief there is no God rely on faith for what they believe. Your faith that there is no God is simply no different to any other religious belief you seek to criticise .

You wish.

 

[Heyo]

I haven’t claimed such a confidence level either. In fact, I’ve said all along that these views aren’t absolute and they’re not universal.

Right. I got distracted as this thread started with @Samantha Rinne , was taken over by @dfnj and now you. (I want my netnews back where I have an eye on the flow of a thread.)

Yes. And the problem I have here is that some of the respondents appear to be holding the term hostage to only one meaning, which is not the definition im using, and then telling me that I’m wrong.

Yes. The illusion of knowledge is a trap into which atheists step almost as often as theists. I don't now what is worse, the illusion of knowledge or the fatalism that "we can't know anything". Both aren't very conductive to a discussion.

 

[lukethethird]

Either way a belief that is not supported by evidence is based on faith. If you cannot prove there is no God or there is no existence of God and you have no evidence that belief is simply your faith because you have no evidence that God does not exist

It's not about disproving God, it's about not believing you. For example, I have no faith in you and your claims whatsoever.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Yet here you are not able to prove your claims. As all religions rely on faith for their belief in God all those who belief there is no God rely on faith for what they believe. Your faith that there is no God is simply no different to any other religious belief you seek to criticise .

Based on the content of your posts, I have to guess that you don't like atheists, and you really feel that your religious views are worth defending right?

So, my question then is this - if you don't like atheists, but you DO like your religion, then WHY do you seek to "lower" (this is a lowering from YOUR perspective specifically) your religion to be nothing more than what you think that atheists also do?

Now this is not me agreeing with you - in fact, I think you're dead wrong about atheism being a "religion" - it's a ridiculous and idiotic claim not based on anything but a desire to annoy atheists by trying to compare what they do to what you do. But again... WHY do you want your religion cast into the same lot with atheism? Why? I can tell you - I certainly value my atheism enough to never even consider throwing it into the same bin as theism - that's for sure. It would be an insult to the intelligence of atheists everywhere. Kind of like what you are doing with this thread.

 

[3rdAngel]

Based on the content of your posts, I have to guess that you don't like atheists, and you really feel that your religious views are worth defending right?

So, my question then is this - if you don't like atheists, but you DO like your religion, then WHY do you seek to "lower" (this is a lowering from YOUR perspective specifically) your religion to be nothing more than what you think that atheists also do?

Now this is not me agreeing with you - in fact, I think you're dead wrong about atheism being a "religion" - it's a ridiculous and idiotic claim not based on anything but a desire to annoy atheists by trying to compare what they do to what you do. But again... WHY do you want your religion cast into the same lot with atheism? Why? I can tell you - I certainly value my atheism enough to never even consider throwing it into the same bin as theism - that's for sure. It would be an insult to the intelligence of atheists everywhere. Kind of like what you are doing with this thread.

Not at all. I love athiests or I would not be here. However, the better question would be, do I agree with what athiesm promotes? Well of course not. I guess that is pretty obvious. The statement about atheism being a religion was not that it is but simply some that are athiests follow the same patterns of those who have a religion that believe in God but in the opposite direction. This OP is simply observations on two belief systems being the same and being based on faith, nothing more and nothing less.

 

[sojourner]

Either way a belief that is not supported by evidence is based on faith. If you cannot prove there is no God or there is no existence of God and you have no evidence that belief is simply your faith because you have no evidence that God does not exist

But the premise is that God is existent, which none of the available evidence shows. That God exists cannot be the premise, because a premise can’t be based on a belief; it must be based on fact.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Athiesm says in his heart there is no God then again according to the scriptures so does the fool.

Well, yeah-- if even a fool recognizes that gods are myth?

A wise man shouts it out loud. This isn't rocket science after all.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I’m a member of the clergy, so, yeah, I attend church. Sorta comes with the job.

Other philanthropic “hobbies” that are nonprofits also receive tax breaks. The church is not taxed in order to keep it separate from the state. Unless you’d like more meddling in that regard? .

Whataboutism. The other non-profits do not make empty promises they cannot prove, or fulfill.

And? "keep it separate from the state" has always been pure FICTION, hasn't it?

We have Dump in the White House because of christian church interference.

So it's not working-- time to tax them for the Entertainment Businesses they are.

As soon as they can get an Affidavit from God (or Jesus, or even the Virgin Mary) they can get their tax exempt back.

Until they do that? Empty Promises-- or Pure Entertainment, like Movie Theaters. Tax accordingly.

 

[sojourner]

Whataboutism. The other non-profits do not make empty promises they cannot prove, or fulfill.

And? "keep it separate from the state" has always been pure FICTION, hasn't it?

We have Dump in the White House because of christian church interference.

So it's not working-- time to tax them for the Entertainment Businesses they are.

As soon as they can get an Affidavit from God (or Jesus, or even the Virgin Mary) they can get their tax exempt back.

Until they do that? Empty Promises-- or Pure Entertainment, like Movie Theaters. Tax accordingly.

I’m certain we had concluded our business together on this subject.

 

[night912]

Not at all. I love athiests or I would not be here. However, the better question would be, do I agree with what athiesm promotes? Well of course not. I guess that is pretty obvious. The statement about atheism being a religion was not that it is but simply some that are athiests follow the same patterns of those who have a religion that believe in God but in the opposite direction. This OP is simply observations on two belief systems being the same and being based on faith, nothing more and nothing less.

Belief that a god exist and belief that no god exist are two separate sets of beliefs. Those two beliefs are the same. But you're forgetting the two "lacks," lack of belief that no god exist and lack of belief that god exist. Both atheism and theism can fall under the first one, but only atheism can fall under both.

When you are asked, do you believe that no god exist? The only valid answers are you believe that no god exist or you lack the belief that no god exist. Your belief that god exist is irrelevant to that proposition.

When asked, do you believe that god exist? The only valid answers are, you believe that god exist or you lack the belief that god exist. Believing that no god exist is irrelevant to that proposition.

Your misunderstanding in the difference between the two proposition is the source of this confusion.