Thoughts about God's Forms

[Terese]

Terese, good post.
I am a new Vaishnava who goes to an ISKCON temple in America. You may want to consult a Gosvami or Acharya of many years but the following is my understanding.
Visnu and Krsna are the same. They are The Supreme One as you say. Narayana is the same or has the same nature as Brahma. That's Brahma without the n. Brahman( with the n)
is a somewhat impersonal/formless conceptualization. Brahma, it's said, is the first created being of Visnu/Krsna. This first created being is Narayana.
So Narayana is synonymous with Brahma but not necessarily Brahman which is more just the effulgence of Visnu/Krsna without definite personality.
From what I'm learning at my ISKCON temple Lakshmi was one of the wives of Krsna. Now Radha-Krsna are the Divine Couple having a higher importance than Krsna and Lakshmi
but, Lakshmi was still important to Krsna as one of his expansions. Lakshmi is the fortune expansion of Krsna as the Supreme Personality.
As far as Shiva goes... Shiva is the expansion of Visnu/Krsna which holds The Supremes power of ignorance in the world as well as his power for destruction in the world. As far as the hierarchy of Visnus/Krsnas being Shiva is just below the importance of Narayana but perhaps just above the importance of Brahma.

I have to say, I don't agree with the concept that Vishnu is the same as Brahma. Vishnu is Narayana, who is synonymous with Brahman itself. Brahma came with the creation of our universe, as he is the beginning and end of our universe. Krishna is the same as Vishnu as Rama is, physical manifestations of Vishnu. Although conceptually I agree that Shiva and Devi are parts of God, but of Vishnu himself, not Krishna. When you say Lakshmi was of one of the wives of Krishna, do you mean her incarnation of Rukmini?

 

[kalyan]

I have to say, I don't agree with the concept that Vishnu is the same as Brahma. Vishnu is Narayana, who is synonymous with Brahman itself. Brahma came with the creation of our universe, as he is the beginning and end of our universe. Krishna is the same as Vishnu as Rama is, physical manifestations of Vishnu. Although conceptually I agree that Shiva and Devi are parts of God, but of Vishnu himself, not Krishna. When you say Lakshmi was of one of the wives of Krishna, do you mean her incarnation of Rukmini?

Nice.....QFT

 

[Prana Pastime]

I have to say, I don't agree with the concept that Vishnu is the same as Brahma. Vishnu is Narayana, who is synonymous with Brahman itself. Brahma came with the creation of our universe, as he is the beginning and end of our universe. Krishna is the same as Vishnu as Rama is, physical manifestations of Vishnu. Although conceptually I agree that Shiva and Devi are parts of God, but of Vishnu himself, not Krishna. When you say Lakshmi was of one of the wives of Krishna, do you mean her incarnation of Rukmini?

So Terese you are saying that Narayana is the same as Krishna(?) I'm fine with that. Like I said I am still learning.

 

[Terese]

So Terese you are saying that Narayana is the same as Krishna(?) I'm fine with that. Like I said I am still learning.

Yes, and no. Krishna is a physical manifestation of God. Krishna is fully realised, and is God himself, but he is a small portion of Narayana's power. He is human, albeit stronger than one, but still human, and cannot bring the sun to a stop, or whisk the waves of the ocean with a flick of his wrist. Narayana is Brahman itself. Its like equating a grand tree to a leaf. If Vishnu and Krishna looked at each other, they would be looking at themselves. But Vishnu is Supreme, not Krishna. I am also learning! i hope you have fun here!

 

[Kirran]

Not to knock or anything, but I think it'd be a cool idea for us to institute a Vaishnava Sub-DIR for these discussions, so that people can focus on learning about things within the context of their own sampradaya.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram Terese ji

Yes, and no. Krishna is a physical manifestation of God. Krishna is fully realised, and is God himself, but he is a small portion of Narayana's power. He is human, albeit stronger than one, but still human, and cannot bring the sun to a stop, or whisk the waves of the ocean with a flick of his wrist. Narayana is Brahman itself. Its like equating a grand tree to a leaf. If Vishnu and Krishna looked at each other, they would be looking at themselves. But Vishnu is Supreme, not Krishna. I am also learning! i hope you have fun here!

No offence meant, ......but , ....as a Vaisnava and as this is a Vaisnava conversation , ....meaning No offence to other traditions , ....but Krsna is more than just a manifestation , ..he is the Supreme , although he appears in human form and although he does not exhibit his powers he is the himself the Supreme Controler , ...all universes reside within him there is nothing he canot do ! ....yet he apears at the end of Dvapara Yuga to instruct Arjuna as to his Dharma , and to establish rightious rule before the begining of Kali Yuga .

may I please refer you to the Bhagavad Gita chapter on the Universal form where upon Arjuna asks Sri Krsna to display his Vishvarup universal form , ......

please excuse the long quotations , ...

Chapter 11, Verse 3
''O greatest of all personalities, O supreme form, though I see here before me Your actual position, I yet wish to see how You have entered into this cosmic manifestation. I want to see that form of Yours.

If You think that I am able to behold Your cosmic form, O my Lord, O master of all mystic power, then kindly show me that universal self.

The Blessed Lord said: My dear Arjuna, O son of Pṛthā, behold now My opulences, hundreds of thousands of varied divine forms, multicolored like the sea.

O best of the Bhāratas, see here the different manifestations of Ādityas, Rudras, and all the demigods. Behold the many things which no one has ever seen or heard before.

Whatever you wish to see can be seen all at once in this body. This universal form can show you all that you now desire, as well as whatever you may desire in the future. Everything is here completely.

But you cannot see Me with your present eyes. Therefore I give to you divine eyes by which you can behold My mystic opulence.''


here we see Krsnas ability to grant divine sight thus showing his power over all material matter , .....and explaining why we might be fooled as arjuna was into mistaking Krsna for a mere mortal being , ....this chapter shows him to be more than a manifestation but to be the Supreme himself in his full opulance .


''Sanjaya said: O King, speaking thus, the Supreme, the Lord of all mystic power, the Personality of Godhead, displayed His universal form to Arjuna.

Arjuna saw in that universal form unlimited mouths and unlimited eyes. It was all wondrous. The form was decorated with divine, dazzling ornaments and arrayed in many garbs. He was garlanded gloriously, and there were many scents smeared over His body. All was magnificent, all-expanding, unlimited. This was seen by Arjuna.

If hundreds of thousands of suns rose up at once into the sky, they might resemble the effulgence of the Supreme Person in that universal form.

If hundreds of thousands of suns rose up at once into the sky, they might resemble the effulgence of the Supreme Person in that universal form.

At that time Arjuna could see in the universal form of the Lord the unlimited expansions of the universe situated in one place although divided into many, many thousands.''

here Arjuna whitnesses that everything resides with in the lord , entire universes , their presiding gods and demi gods , .....everything resides within the supreme .

''Then, bewildered and astonished, his hair standing on end, Arjuna began to pray with folded hands, offering obeisances to the Supreme Lord.

Arjuna said: My dear Lord Kṛṣṇa, I see assembled together in Your body all the demigods and various other living entities. I see Brahmā sitting on the lotus flower as well as Lord Śiva and many sages and divine serpents.

O Lord of the universe, I see in Your universal body many, many forms-bellies, mouths, eyes-expanded without limit. There is no end, there is no beginning, and there is no middle to all this.

Your form, adorned with various crowns, clubs and discs, is difficult to see because of its glaring effulgence, which is fiery and immeasurable like the sun.

You are the supreme primal objective; You are the best in all the universes; You are inexhaustible, and You are the oldest; You are the maintainer of religion, the eternal Personality of Godhead. ........verse 18

here we see all the demi gods residing within him , as MahaVisnu , Brahma Visnu and Siva all reside within this supreme , ...and the efulgence is the formless Brahman , ..yet as Vaisnava we belive that the supreme resting place of all is Sri Krsna himself , that Narayana and MahaVisnu are synonomous with that supreme , ...

...continued , ...

 

[ratikala]

verse 19 , ....''You are the origin without beginning, middle or end. You have numberless arms, and the sun and moon are among Your great unlimited eyes. By Your own radiance You are heating this entire universe.

Although You are one, You are spread throughout the sky and the planets and all space between. O great one, as I behold this terrible form, I see that all the planetary systems are perplexed.

All the demigods are surrendering and entering into You. They are very much afraid, and with folded hands they are singing the Vedic hymns.

The different manifestations of Lord Śiva, the Ādityas, the Vasus, the Sādhyas, the Viśvadevas, the two Aśvins, the Māruts, the forefathers and the Gandharvas, the Yakṣas, Asuras, and all perfected demigods are beholding You in wonder.

O mighty-armed one, all the planets with their demigods are disturbed at seeing Your many faces, eyes, arms, bellies and legs and Your terrible teeth, and as they are disturbed, so am I.

O all-pervading Viṣṇu, I can no longer maintain my equilibrium. Seeing Your radiant colors fill the skies and beholding Your eyes and mouths, I am afraid.'' ...verse 24

Here Arjuna cals Krsna ''all pervading Visnu'' this is the supreme which pervades all beings and all universes , Brahma Visnu and Siva anre merely the creator maintainor and destroyer of this material universe .


36.......''O Hṛṣīkeśa, the world becomes joyful upon hearing Your name and thus everyone becomes attached to You. Although the perfected beings offer You their respectful homage, the demons are afraid, and they flee here and there. All this is rightly done.

O great one, who stands above even Brahmā, You are the original master. Why should they not offer their homage up to You, O limitless one? O refuge of the universe, You are the invincible source, the cause of all causes, transcendental to this material manifestation. '' ....37

38 ....''You are the original Personality, the Godhead. You are the only sanctuary of this manifested cosmic world. You know everything, and You are all that is knowable. You are above the material modes. O limitless form! This whole cosmic manifestation is pervaded by You!''

You are air, fire, water, and You are the moon! You are the supreme controller and the grandfather. Thus I offer my respectful obeisances unto You a thousand times, and again and yet again!

Obeisances from the front, from behind and from all sides! O unbounded power, You are the master of limitless, might! You are all-pervading, and thus You are everything!

41-42, ....''I have in the past addressed You as O Kṛṣṇa, O Yādava, O my friend, without knowing Your glories. Please forgive whatever I may have done in madness or in love. I have dishonored You many times while relaxing or while lying on the same bed or eating together, sometimes alone and sometimes in front of many friends. Please excuse me for all my offenses.''

this is a very important verse , having been granted divine sight Arjuna now recognises Krsna in his fullness , ..

43, ....''You are the father of this complete cosmic manifestation, the worshipable chief, the spiritual master. No one is equal to You, nor can anyone be one with You. Within the three worlds, You are immeasurable.''

44, ....''You are the Supreme Lord, to be worshiped by every living being. Thus I fall down to offer You my respects and ask Your mercy. Please tolerate the wrongs that I may have done to You and bear with me as a father with his son, or a friend with his friend, or a lover with his beloved.

45, ...After seeing this universal form, which I have never seen before, I am gladdened, but at the same time my mind is disturbed with fear. Therefore please bestow Your grace upon me and reveal again Your form as the Personality of Godhead, O Lord of lords, O abode of the universe.

46, ....O universal Lord, I wish to see You in Your four-armed form, with helmeted head and with club, wheel, conch and lotus flower in Your hands. I long to see You in that form.''

47, ...The Blessed Lord said: My dear Arjuna, happily do I show you this universal form within the material world by My internal potency. No one before you has ever seen this unlimited and glaringly effulgent form.

48, ...O best of the Kuru warriors, no one before you has ever seen this universal form of Mine, for neither by studying the Vedas, nor by performing sacrifices, nor by charities or similar activities can this form be seen. Only you have seen this.''

49, ...Your mind has been perturbed upon seeing this horrible feature of Mine. Now let it be finished. My devotee, be free from all disturbance. With a peaceful mind you can now see the form you desire.

50, ...Sanjaya said to Dhṛtarāṣṭra: ''The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, while speaking thus to Arjuna, displayed His real four-armed form, and at last He showed him His two-armed form, thus encouraging the fearful Arjuna.''

51, ...When Arjuna thus saw Kṛṣṇa in His original form, he said: Seeing this humanlike form, so very beautiful, my mind is now pacified, and I am restored to my original nature.

52, ...The Blessed Lord said: My dear Arjuna, the form which you are now seeing is very difficult to behold. Even the demigods are ever seeking the opportunity to see this form which is so dear.

53, ...The form which you are seeing with your transcendental eyes cannot be understood simply by studying the Vedas, nor by undergoing serious penances, nor by charity, nor by worship. It is not by these means that one can see Me as I am.

54, ...My dear Arjuna, only by undivided devotional service can I be understood as I am, standing before you, and can thus be seen directly. Only in this way can you enter into the mysteries of My understanding.

55, ...My dear Arjuna, one who is engaged in My pure devotional service, free from the contaminations of previous activities and from mental speculation, who is friendly to every living entity, certainly comes to Me.''





thus it is explained perfectly , ......but one in doubt should read , ......
.... continued , ...

 

[ratikala]

Narayana Upanishad (1): "atha puruso ha vai narayano 'kamayata prajah srjeyeti: 'Then the Supreme Personality Narayana desired to create living entities.' The Upanisad continues; narayanad brahma jayate, narayanad prajapatih prajayate, narayanad indro jayate, narayanad astau vasavo jayante, narayanad ekadasa rudra jayante, narayanad dvadasadityah: 'From Narayana, Brahma is born, and from Narayana the patriarchs are also born. From Narayana, Indra is born, from Narayana the eight Vasus are born, from Narayana the eleven Rudras are born, from Narayana the twelve Adityas are born.' This Narayana is an expansion of Krishna."

and finaly in bhagavad gita again Krsna says , ....

"I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who perfectly know this engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts." ...ch 10 ...v 8

and also in Varaha Purana , ....it says , ...

"narayanah paro devas

tasmaj jatas caturmukhah

tasmad rudro 'bhavad devah
sa ca sarva-jnatam gatah'' Brahman, Paramatma and Bhagavan are three aspects of the same Absolute Truth. Brahman is the aspect most easily perceived by the beginner; Paramatma, the Supersoul, is realized by those who have further progressed; and Bhagavan realization is the ultimate realization of the Absolute Truth. This is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita (7.7), where Lord Krishna says that He is the ultimate concept of the Absolute Truth: mattah parataram nanyat. Therefore Krishna is the source of the brahmajyoti as well as the all-pervading Paramatma. Later in the Bhagavad-gita (10.42) Krishna further explains:


'Narayana is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and from Him Brahma was born, from whom Siva was born.'"

again in Bhagavad Gita Krsna says , ....

Ch..14 v..27 .......
'' I am the basis of the impersonal Brahman, which is the constitutional position of ultimate happiness, and which is immortal, imperishable and eternal.''

thus Brahman, Paramatma and Bhagavan are but three aspects of the same Absolute and Supreme Truth , to some , due to their level of realisation that truth is formless , to others the supreme has both form and allpervasiveness , ....thus there is the formless Brahman which to the Vaisnava is the allpervasive nature of the supreme .

But Vishnu is Supreme, not Krishna.

I am also learning! i hope you have fun here!

No no , Not so ..! ......it is confusing I know , ...and takes many years to come to terms with , ...but yes we are all learning , even Arjuna was confused , but I hope you have enjoyed reading these verses and hope it is a little clearer , ....

sorry for length , but thankyou for reading

Jai sri Krsna

 

[Chakra]

Krishna is most certainly Narayana himself. In fact, he's revealed himself in his Narayana form to many people. I personally tend to stray from interpretations that try to portray Krishna>Vishnu or Vishnu>Krishna, since that seems to deviate from the message of Alvars, Ramanuja, Madhva, Chaitanya, etc.

 

[Terese]

Ratikala those were very big replies! The Bhagavad Gita translation I read did not have as much time devoted to Krishna's vishvarupa. Obviously you would give a Gaudiya vaishnava answer, as you are a Gaudiya. But Krishna is a manifestation of Vishnu. Krishna's vishvarupa was his true form, Vishnu himself, who is Narayana. Everything Krishna says is directed to his true form, Vishnu. Krishna is God himself, but a small portion of Narayana's power. We are talking about Brahman's forms, and I find it irrelevant to have the 'who came first' argument, but I will always defend Mahavishnu, as my Ishta-deva, and as a Sri Vaishnava. Vishnu is the original form of the Lord. We are in perpetual disagreement with each other, as I believe Vishnu is supreme, and you believe Krishna is supreme.

 

[Aupmanyav]

When you say Lakshmi was of one of the wives of Krishna, do you mean her incarnation of Rukmini?

As far as I am concerned, YES. Mother Rukmini was none other than Mother Lakshmi, and so were Satyabhama, Jambavati, Kalindi, Mitravinda,Nagnajiti, Bhadra and Lakshmana. None other, just could not have been. His leela! How can the Lord be married to someone else.

Although this is a Vaishnava discussion, but even in case of Shiva, Sati cannot be anyone other than Mother Parvati. It is one whole, there cannot be divisions, Brahman and His Shakti.

 

[psychoslice]

I feel that when we get too involved in labels, that we miss the whole point in whatever deities, they are there to help us to emerge into who we truly are, not to be argued over, for that is taking us away from who we truly are.

 

[SomeRandom]

I feel that when we get too involved in labels, that we miss the whole point in whatever deities, they are there to help us to emerge into who we truly are, not to be argued over, for that is taking us away from who we truly are.

Whilst I personally agree being a universalist, these distinctions are more to do with scripture and various schools of thought. So they can be helpful to newcomers trying to decipher what their sect says and what interpretations are common.

 

[psychoslice]

Whilst I personally agree being a universalist, these distinctions are more to do with scripture and various schools of thought. So they can be helpful to newcomers trying to decipher what their sect says and what interpretations are common.

I myself like to keep all simple, we are all one in God, and no matter what concepts we use it doesn't matter, in fact the more concepts we use the further we are away from that which IS.

 

[SomeRandom]

I myself like to keep all simple, we are all one in God, and no matter what concepts we use it doesn't matter, in fact the more concepts we use the further we are away from that which IS.

Well yes but there is roughly 6000 years of all sorts of traditions to sort though. More if you don't buy into religious boundaries. So it's helpful to keep track of them. It makes things simple for the newbies and therefore easier for them to find a sect (or reject one) that's right for them. An easier way to observe traditional worship you could say.

 

[psychoslice]

Well yes but there is roughly 6000 years of all sorts of traditions to sort though. More if you don't buy into religious boundaries. So it's helpful to keep track of them. It makes things simple for the newbies and therefore easier for them to find a sect (or reject one) that's right for them. An easier way to observe traditional worship you could say.

Yes that is one way, but my way is going direct to who you are, that is without all the philosophy and teachings, after all you are all ready that which IS, you are God in all his glory....its just that we have forgotten this truth.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Psychoslice, there are many Vaishnavas around, take care (lest they forget Vaishnavism and pounce on you).

 

[psychoslice]

Psychoslice, there are many Vaishnavas around, take care.

But in the end there is nothing but truth, that is when we take away the concepts of labels, even Krishna was nothing more than a label, but a beautiful label at that.

 

[Terese]

But in the end there is nothing but truth, that is when we take away the concepts of labels, even Krishna was nothing more than a label, but a beautiful label at that.

Don't worry Psychoslice, I won't pounce at you! Labels or no labels, the Lord is of our concern.

 

[psychoslice]

Don't worry Psychoslice, I won't pounce at you! Labels or no labels, the Lord is of our concern.

And why is the lord your concern ?.