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Thoughts about God's Forms

Terese

Mangalam Pundarikakshah
Staff member
Premium Member
As one who follows Vishishtadvaita, I believe Vishnu is the supreme, always, but how do Shiva and Shakti fit? How are they related to Narayana? Because Narayana is synonymous with Brahman does that mean Narayan's forms include all that try and help us attain moksha? including Shiva and Shakti? Also i'm quite confused that Vishnu is synonymous with Narayana, but Lakshmi is considered just as important, so where does she fit if Vishnu is Narayana? Or is Shiva not completely God and is considered the greatest Vaishnava and Lakshmi (Shakti) is different from Vishnu and also of lower status? What are your answers?
 

StarryNightshade

Spiritually confused Jew
Premium Member
As a Vadakalai Sri Vaishnava, shakti fits in as Vishnu's consort Lakshmi. In fact, according to Vadakalai theology, she is not lower than Narayana, but is near equal to him; especially considering we believe she is also able to give Moksha.

As for Shiva? Well, he is in Sri Vaishnavism, but his role is traditionally very minor or practically non-existent. As one who is more "liberal" in their theology, I do include him more into my practice, but I still consider Narayana to be at the top of the hierarchy. Plus, I only revere his Linga form.

From what I can infer, deities like Shiva, Ganesha, Indra, Agni, Murugan, etc., come from Naryana, but are considered to also be uniquely separate from Him; very much how like humanity is.
 

Terese

Mangalam Pundarikakshah
Staff member
Premium Member
What do you mean Shakti is 'near equal' to him? Also, i was not aware she could provide us moksha. :eek:
 

StarryNightshade

Spiritually confused Jew
Premium Member
What do you mean Shakti is 'near equal' to him? Also, i was not aware she could provide us moksha. :eek:

Well, in addition to Ramanuja, we also follow Vedanta Desika. Based on this, Vadakalai don't believe that Lakshmi is merely a jiva elevated to Her status by Narayan, but but an intregal part of the creation and preservation of the material world.

To use an analogy: if Narayan is the body of the world, then Lakshmi is the heart/soul.

However, despite her equal status, we're still Vaishnavas in the end and acknowledge Vishnu as the Supreme; but we have a very special place for Lakshmi.
 

Terese

Mangalam Pundarikakshah
Staff member
Premium Member
thanks for the cosmic info! Although i must say, If Vishnu is Narayana, who is Brahman, is Shakti also a part of Narayana?
 
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kalyan

Aspiring Sri VaishNava
thanks for the cosmic info! Although i must say, If Vishnu is Narayana, who is Brahman, is Shakti also a part of Narayana?
nArAyaNa is not a she/he/it actually taking the literal meaning ....it is a different entity separate from jIva/atma(soul) and prakriti (nature) and which exists in everything in the universe from atom to galaxies, exists in you, me, a rock, an insect, a bird , an animal everything which has a form and name....nArAyaNa appeared as Maha Vishnu, if one were to visualize nArAyaNa, we cannot but in a form we can visualize as Sri Maha Vishnu....
As Vishnu is only the supreme brahman/god called as 'paramaatma' , the rest all fall into the jIva category,
Vishnu alone will be there at one point when nothing would be there, he keeps all the jIvas and prakriti in their subtler forms inside him and he alone exists before creation.
well creation is not a term accepted by vedic terminology because creation something that comes out new. But sristi, the sanskrit term explains, that which comes out from something......

when Vishnu starts of bringing out the universe, then just as a plant comes out from seed in multiple phases, the sristi happens in multiple phases which i would not go into taking into consideration the complexity of the process and with my little knowledge i could not take that vast subject, so anyway depending on the karmic burden each jIva carries they are placed in some physical body....some become devatas because their karma is on a higher level, but they cannot attain moksham/liberation from their places, they have to again be born as humans to attain release from cycles of birth and death.

and this sristi and layam(again entire universe will be kept inside maha vishnu in subtler form just like we keep terabytes of data inside a HDD , its not destruction..) happens in cycles.....and when jIvas are given suitable bodies, he himself again comes inside the physical body along with jIva to give him the energy to perform tasks, you need to may be explore on what jIva/atma is as mentioned in BG before it all makes sense.....the basics takes time, anyway so to answer your question shakti and Siva are also jIvas and they too go down when the layam or not apt term destruction of universe happens and Vishnu again initiate the cycle after some time and then again the same pattern will follow for some part.....but the one who got liberated or attained moksham need not go into this cycle of creation and destruction because he is allocated a separate eternal place because he desired for brahman(eternal thing) and placed in eternal place called 'nitya vibhooti' or vaikuntam or parama padam(technical terms)

Sri Maha Lakshmi as the consort of Maha Vishnu reduces the independence of Maha Vishnu for the sinners like me.... She always has to remain with Maha Vishnu, she says just like sita maa said in Ramayanam, 'those who are born in earth, show me one who did not make even a single mistake?' she tells to hanuman in Lanka, this is because according to vedas, earth/prithvi is one of the element of the body and its very nature is it gives three qualities, sattvam, rajasa, taamasa, mix of three which when the jIva occupies a physical body due to its effects and due to his false identification with physical body does mistakes....Asking these sort of question she reduces unbridled independence of maha vishnu in looking at all the sins of jIva and she covers them, that is her role and most important one....
 
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George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
As one who follows Vishishtadvaita, I believe Vishnu is the supreme, always, but how do Shiva and Shakti fit? How are they related to Narayana? Because Narayana is synonymous with Brahman does that mean Narayan's forms include all that try and help us attain moksha? including Shiva and Shakti? Also i'm quite confused that Vishnu is synonymous with Narayana, but Lakshmi is considered just as important, so where does she fit if Vishnu is Narayana? Or is Shiva not completely God and is considered the greatest Vaishnava and Lakshmi (Shakti) is different from Vishnu and also of lower status? What are your answers?
I am impressed by your knowledge in asking such questions. As a westerner that adopted Hinduism/Advaita myself I get confused too about much that is in traditional Hinduism. My response has been to keep it simple and not get too concerned with understanding everything. Any of the various god names and forms work if you are following a Bhakti (devotional) yoga path. Find a path that works for you. I personally am of the Jnana (knowledge) yoga bent (probably making me in the minority:)) and I just focus on identifying with my Brahman core (and I am an avid believer in a modern human enbodied avatar Satya Sai Baba).
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
As one who follows Vishishtadvaita, I believe Vishnu is the supreme, always, but how do Shiva and Shakti fit? How are they related to Narayana? Because Narayana is synonymous with Brahman does that mean Narayan's forms include all that try and help us attain moksha? including Shiva and Shakti? Also i'm quite confused that Vishnu is synonymous with Narayana, but Lakshmi is considered just as important, so where does she fit if Vishnu is Narayana? Or is Shiva not completely God and is considered the greatest Vaishnava and Lakshmi (Shakti) is different from Vishnu and also of lower status? What are your answers?
A husband and wife are not considered two entities in Hinduism but one. So, Lakshmi is the same as Vishnu and Shiva is the same as Parvati. Rama and Sita, many Hindus will not bifurcate them into two (Of course, Sampradaya views may be different. But the numbers of who do not belong to any Sampradaya or who do and to which Sampradaya has never been researched as far as I know. So it is all guess work). Since they are one, there is no question of a precedence. What Lakshmi says, Narayana has to accept, and what Parvati says Shiva has to accept. For a Vishishtadvaitin, Narayana is the Supreme, but for a Shaiva Siddhanti, Shiva is the Supreme. For a Shakta, the Mother Goddess is the Supreme. A Smarta will worship all and will not give them names other than Brahman. Moksha is a small matter for these divinities and any one can grant it.

Edit: Not that everyone thinks of Moksha in the same way. For someone like me who does not believe in rebirth, Moksha has to have a different meaning. Sorry to see Vaishnava sampradayas fighting within themselves and with others in an Abrahamic manner.
I just focus on identifying with my Brahman core (and I am an avid believer in a modern human enbodied avatar Satya Sai Baba).
If your way is advaita, then any humans, every thing, is embodied Brahman, no less, no more.
 
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Terese

Mangalam Pundarikakshah
Staff member
Premium Member
nArAyaNa is not a she/he/it actually taking the literal meaning ....it is a different entity separate from jIva/atma(soul) and prakriti (nature) and which exists in everything in the universe from atom to galaxies, exists in you, me, a rock, an insect, a bird , an animal everything which has a form and name....nArAyaNa appeared as Maha Vishnu, if one were to visualize nArAyaNa, we cannot but in a form we can visualize as Sri Maha Vishnu....
As Vishnu is only the supreme brahman/god called as 'paramaatma' , the rest all fall into the jIva category,
Vishnu alone will be there at one point when nothing would be there, he keeps all the jIvas and prakriti in their subtler forms inside him and he alone exists before creation.
well creation is not a term accepted by vedic terminology because creation something that comes out new. But sristi, the sanskrit term explains, that which comes out from something......

when Vishnu starts of bringing out the universe, then just as a plant comes out from seed in multiple phases, the sristi happens in multiple phases which i would not go into taking into consideration the complexity of the process and with my little knowledge i could not take that vast subject, so anyway depending on the karmic burden each jIva carries they are placed in some physical body....some become devatas because their karma is on a higher level, but they cannot attain moksham/liberation from their places, they have to again be born as humans to attain release from cycles of birth and death.

and this sristi and layam(again entire universe will be kept inside maha vishnu in subtler form just like we keep terabytes of data inside a HDD , its not destruction..) happens in cycles.....and when jIvas are given suitable bodies, he himself again comes inside the physical body along with jIva to give him the energy to perform tasks, you need to may be explore on what jIva/atma is as mentioned in BG before it all makes sense.....the basics takes time, anyway so to answer your question shakti and Siva are also jIvas and they too go down when the layam or not apt term destruction of universe happens and Vishnu again initiate the cycle after some time and then again the same pattern will follow for some part.....but the one who got liberated or attained moksham need not go into this cycle of creation and destruction because he is allocated a separate eternal place because he desired for brahman(eternal thing) and placed in eternal place called 'nitya vibhooti' or vaikuntam or parama padam(technical terms)

Sri Maha Lakshmi as the consort of Maha Vishnu reduces the independence of Maha Vishnu for the sinners like me.... She always has to remain with Maha Vishnu, she says just like sita maa said in Ramayanam, 'those who are born in earth, show me one who did not make even a single mistake?' she tells to hanuman in Lanka, this is because according to vedas, earth/prithvi is one of the element of the body and its very nature is it gives three qualities, sattvam, rajasa, taamasa, mix of three which when the jIva occupies a physical body due to its effects and due to his false identification with physical body does mistakes....Asking these sort of question she reduces unbridled independence of maha vishnu in looking at all the sins of jIva and she covers them, that is her role and most important one....
So Lakshmi is concerned with Dharma? and how come Devas can't achieve moksha?
 
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kalyan

Aspiring Sri VaishNava
So Lakshmi is concerned with Dharma? and how come Devas can't achieve moksha?
because devas places are for 'anubhavam' like for enjoying and they do that only, they have no chance of burning karma.....karma can only be burnt in prithvi/earth and that is why earth is called 'Karma bhoomi' the place of burning karma.

<3 your signature btw, the one below 'carl sagan' quote ofcourse :)........
 
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George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
If your way is advaita, then any humans, every thing, is embodied Brahman, no less, no more.
Agreed, but an avatar lives in realization and experience of this state. Everything else is evolving to get there.
 

Terese

Mangalam Pundarikakshah
Staff member
Premium Member
because devas places are for 'anubhavam' like for enjoying and they do that only, they have no chance of burning karma.....karma can only be burnt in prithvi/earth and that is why earth is called 'Karma bhoomi' the place of burning karma.

<3 your signature btw, the one below 'carl sagan' quote ofcourse :)........
How come they cannot burn karma? Also, you did not answer my Lakshmi dharma question. Thank you for noticing my signature! Fitting for all vaishnavas.
 

kalyan

Aspiring Sri VaishNava
How come they cannot burn karma? Also, you did not answer my Lakshmi dharma question. Thank you for noticing my signature! Fitting for all vaishnavas.
those places where devas live are for enjoying only, i mean a jIva can attain a deva body if he did some good virtues, so he goes to a planet lets say and he enjoys, enjoys till his good virtue result is over, then he again has to fall back to earth because he is not yet liberated and his result has already been sanctioned.....some devas like Indra or Brahma will be there in those planets for a longer time in that position and with that position comes some responsibilities and when his karma stock is over, the indra position will be occupied by some other, just imagine like a president position....so that is why Sri Krishna says in BG, those who go to even the brahma loka, the place where brahma lives, they also has to again fall back, hope am clear, if not may be some others can put it in a better perspective.!
 

kalyan

Aspiring Sri VaishNava
some view Lakshmi devi as inherent something belonging to Maha Vishnu, like Vishnu's compassion, extreme love, forgiveness for the jIvas is viewed as Sri Lakshmi, but Visista-advaita says Lakshmi is personal and exists always with Maha Vishnu, Sri represents Lakshmi devi , in sanskrit when we say one with intellect, he is referred as buddhi(intellect) + maan , so one with Sri is called as 'Sri + maan'
the one who is always with sri is nArAyaNa and hence Vishnu is referred as Sriman+nArAyaNa ----Srimannarayana ...Lakshmi plays an important role in the creation or sristi of the universe, because she is the only one who makes Vishnu want to give some bodies for the jIvas that are kept inside him before creation and because of the Lakshmi devi only , Vishnu starts creation .....


adiyen Chinna Jeeyar Swamy daasa
adiyen Ramanuja daasa
 

Terese

Mangalam Pundarikakshah
Staff member
Premium Member
some view Lakshmi devi as inherent something belonging to Maha Vishnu, like Vishnu's compassion, extreme love, forgiveness for the jIvas is viewed as Sri Lakshmi, but Visista-advaita says Lakshmi is personal and exists always with Maha Vishnu, Sri represents Lakshmi devi , in sanskrit when we say one with intellect, he is referred as buddhi(intellect) + maan , so one with Sri is called as 'Sri + maan'
the one who is always with sri is nArAyaNa and hence Vishnu is referred as Sriman+nArAyaNa ----Srimannarayana ...Lakshmi plays an important role in the creation or sristi of the universe, because she is the only one who makes Vishnu want to give some bodies for the jIvas that are kept inside him before creation and because of the Lakshmi devi only , Vishnu starts creation .....


adiyen Chinna Jeeyar Swamy daasa
adiyen Ramanuja daasa
I see. so Lakshmi is very important. But since Narayana is Brahman, would Lakshmi also be a part of him? Also is Shakti Lakshmi?
 

Terese

Mangalam Pundarikakshah
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes. IMHO, Lakshmi is Shakti. Maha Lakshmi, Maha Gauri, Maha Saraswati.
So is it ok for a Sri Vaishnava to worship Shakti? she is both Vishnu and Shiva and Brahma's consorts. If shakti is power, what is Vishnu?
 

kalyan

Aspiring Sri VaishNava
So is it ok for a Sri Vaishnava to worship Shakti? she is both Vishnu and Shiva and Brahma's consorts. If shakti is power, what is Vishnu?
Shakti is the consort of Siva......Generally Sri Vaishnavas do not worship other devathas, they only worship Sri Maha Vishnu, Lakshmi devi and Vishnu family like the gurus in Ramanuja lineage and nithya suris(the ones who always are in the presence of Maha Vishnu from time immemorial, these jIvas won't come to materialistic realm to experience karma, because they don't have one to begin with)

If one were so inclined still to worship Shakti, then a Sri vaishnavite should realize that whatever shakti does or grants, it is because of nArAyaNa acting as inner controller...realizing this one may worship.....But generally a sri vaishnavites don't do this for when Vishnu and Maha Lakshmi can give anything why approach others and being them responsible for the primordial creation (they are considered as father and mother of entire universe) so... But depending on their karmas, the jIvas may like some forms more appealing than others, well that is one thing, then one may worship the devathas that are more likeable to them.....it is nothing wrong

Shakti is Parvathi devi and she is consort of Siva to answer your question and she is different from Maha Lakshmi as far as I know if we are talking literally, but may be one can view even shakti as a form of Lakshmi if the Siva link is not seen but generally both are separate, Shakti or Parvathi devi is wife of Siva who gives his half body to Parvathi and becomes 'arthanareeswara'

adiyen Chinna Jeeyar Swamy daasa
adiyen Ramanuja daasa
 
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As one who follows Vishishtadvaita, I believe Vishnu is the supreme, always, but how do Shiva and Shakti fit? How are they related to Narayana? Because Narayana is synonymous with Brahman does that mean Narayan's forms include all that try and help us attain moksha? including Shiva and Shakti? Also i'm quite confused that Vishnu is synonymous with Narayana, but Lakshmi is considered just as important, so where does she fit if Vishnu is Narayana? Or is Shiva not completely God and is considered the greatest Vaishnava and Lakshmi (Shakti) is different from Vishnu and also of lower status? What are your answers?
Terese, good post.
I am a new Vaishnava who goes to an ISKCON temple in America. You may want to consult a Gosvami or Acharya of many years but the following is my understanding.
Visnu and Krsna are the same. They are The Supreme One as you say. Narayana is the same or has the same nature as Brahma. That's Brahma without the n. Brahman( with the n)
is a somewhat impersonal/formless conceptualization. Brahma, it's said, is the first created being of Visnu/Krsna. This first created being is Narayana.
So Narayana is synonymous with Brahma but not necessarily Brahman which is more just the effulgence of Visnu/Krsna without definite personality.
From what I'm learning at my ISKCON temple Lakshmi was one of the wives of Krsna. Now Radha-Krsna are the Divine Couple having a higher importance than Krsna and Lakshmi
but, Lakshmi was still important to Krsna as one of his expansions. Lakshmi is the fortune expansion of Krsna as the Supreme Personality.
As far as Shiva goes... Shiva is the expansion of Visnu/Krsna which holds The Supremes power of ignorance in the world as well as his power for destruction in the world. As far as the hierarchy of Visnus/Krsnas being Shiva is just below the importance of Narayana but perhaps just above the importance of Brahma.
 
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