Thoughts on the Fall of Adam

[URAVIP2ME]

Not only is there zero evidence of a global/near global flood with so very few human survivors, .......................................................
In other words, the entire Earth was apparently never actually repopulated from a small group of people outside of native American descent such as Noah's family after a global flood.

I find people lived and died before the Flood, but as to any remaining physical evidence I don't know.
Basically what was not perishable at the time of the Flood are the artifacts that can remain.
If there is zero evidence, than how does one explain the vast amount of nations and islands that have similar flood-account stories of a few flood survivors____________

It was later after Noah that the Bible tells us about Nimrod in the 10th chapter of Genesis.
After those ancient Babylonian people migrated away from ancient Babylon they took with them their religious ideas and practices and spread them world wide into a greater religious Babylon or Babylon the Great.
That explains why we see so many similar or overlapping religious ideas and concepts even in today's religious world.
So, if one traces mankind's religious family tree back to it base, then we are traced back to ancient Babylon.
Even astrology gives it credit to ancient Babylon as its source.
Thus, a lot of earth's population stemmed from migrating away from ancient Babylon.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Taken seriously, though, the story has some disturbing implications, like collective punishment.
Another strange aspect of the story: it's Eve who takes the apple, but the story never mentions her being commanded not to take it. The story only mentions Adam being given that command - before Eve was even formed - and doesn't mention anything about him relaying that command to her.

I am wondering if you ever read the 3rd chapter of Genesis _______
The reason I ask is because, according to Genesis 3:2-3, Eve did tell the serpent that she knew the Law.
In verse 4 is where the serpent contradicts the Law to Eve.

What collective punishment. They ate they died. Adam was Not forced to break the Law.
Because Adam fathered offspring ' after ' he broke the Law is why we are born with leanings towards wrongdoing.
If we could stop sinning we would Not die.
Because we can't stop sinning, and is why we can't resurrect oneself or anyone else.
That is why God provided a ransom (Jesus) for us, to undo the damage Satan and Adam brought upon mankind.
As Jesus resurrected dead people while on Earth, Jesus was giving us a preview, or a coming attraction of what he will be doing on a grand-global international scale under his coming 1,000-year governmental rule over Earth.

 

[Ancient Soul]

I dont agree there was plagurizing going on. In fact, i dont even agree there was synchronizing going on. I think these things wer real accross all cultures and thus every culture wrote an account. Some things are similar, some things are different.

Not buying your excuses.

I did my research and many of the key parts of the jesus myth were clearly plagiarized from several previous pagan myths. I also researched how religions were more like "businesses" always trying to come up with new and "improved" mythologies to fool the people into giving them their money. The jesus myth was just one of many.

Now I know you cannot accept that, but thems the facts.

Some things are similar, some things are different. Sorta like if me and ypu told our life story....there would be similarities, yet differences, but no plagurizing.

Not buying into that one either.

My life story is vastly different than anyone else's.

I gave a reference, why didnt you look at it?

You made THIS specific claim:

"seraphim is a flying fiery serpent or dragon like angel"?

And you gave no such reference from the bible to back it up.

So what's the verse?

Its not a guess, i came to this conclusion based on study. Not just study of the bible, but theres other extra biblical sources that reveal the serpent was an angel.

Saraph - Hebrew Lexicon

Revelation 20:2 "He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years."

Revelation 12:7 "Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back."

Heres a extra biblical source that shows satan took on different forms, like angel, charub and in possessed the snake.

"44]16.4 The serpent said, 'In what way or how can we expel him from the Garden?' Satan said to the serpent, 'Be you, in your form, a lyre for me and I will pronounce speech through your mouth, so that we may be able to help.

44]17.1 Then the two of them came to me and hung their feet around the wall of the Garden. When the angels ascended to the worship of the Lord, at that time Satan took on the form of an angel and began to praise God with angelic praises. I knelt down by the wall and attended to his praises.
[44]17.2a I looked and saw him in the likeness of an angel; when I looked again, I did not see him.
[44]17.2b Then he went and summoned the serpent and said to him, 'Arise, come to me so that I may enter into you and speak through your mouth as much as I will need say'.
[44]17.2c At that time the serpent became a lyre for him, and he came again to the wall of the Garden. He cried out and said, 'Oh, woman, you who are blind in this Garden of delight, arise come to me and I will say some words to you'."

http://www2.iath.virginia.edu/anderson/vita/english/vita.arm.html#per2

Also one more thing. Theres no need to mock the Holy Spirit either. Also pertaining to me, im neither left out or welcomed in. Its simply a matter of i study, and when i talk, its me using the brain God (Holy Spirit) gave me to use.

Now, the Holy Spirit does his own talking. I dont talk for him, nor does he talk for me. Wer both two different persons.

So with much less words, you really have no such "magic spirit" after all. If you did, you wouldn't need to "study" anything.

 

[Ancient Soul]

I see the Adam and Eve story as an interesting retelling of the Prometheus legend, except with Prometheus/Adam being cast as the villain instead of as the hero.

I think the story works fine as a "just-so" story, not intended to be taken seriously, about why human life is the way it is. I think that the character names fit with this interpretation: having a man named "Man" and a woman named "Woman" sure makes it seem like they're intended as archetypes and not as literal individuals.

Taken seriously, though, the story has some disturbing implications, like collective punishment.

Another strange aspect of the story: it's Eve who takes the apple, but the story never mentions her being commanded not to take it. The story only mentions Adam being given that command - before Eve was even formed - and doesn't mention anything about him relaying that command to her.

Good points, especially the last one. I'll have to go back and re-read it a different way, as I think Adam didn't even know the "fruit" was from the "tree of life". So if the Christian "god" didn't tell Eve not to eat of it, and Adam didn't know it was from the tree, then the whole thing is FUBAR. Well, looks like I got some re-reading to do!

 

[Ancient Soul]

That is not really true in most of the world. 'Original' sin is a pretty much a discredited concept. It is true that we all sin, and are sinners. But it is our own un repented sin that we need to worry about, not some mythical sin from a religiously mythology out of prehistory.
The whole 'Salvation' concept is also very suspect and makes little sense in respect to Jesus own teachings.

I clearly stated:

">>>most<<< Christian denominations the Genesis myth is a critical part of their beliefs"

Which it is. Without it, and its inherent "original sin" lie, the entire Christian brainwashing system would crumble.

 

[Ancient Soul]

No, it is true - The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than fifteen cubits.
The elevated trees survived, as there were not covered for very long.
The flood account is not disproved by persons wishing for it to be - no evidence. In just the same way the resurrection of the Christ is not disproved, because persons don't want to believe it.

FYI :

The volume of a sphere is easy to calculate: V = 4/3πr³

The earth has a radius of 3959 miles. Now we need to know the radius of the flood. That’s the earth radius, plus the height of Everest, plus 15 cubits (22ft). So 3959 miles + 29,028 ft +22 feet = 3959 miles + 29050 feet = 3959 miles + 5.5018939 miles = 3964.5018939 miles

If we plug those two radii in to our volume formula, we get the volumes:

259,923,241,564 miles³ for the volume of the earth.

261,008,408,332 miles³ for the volume of the earth at flood.

So, if we subtract the earth volume from the flood volume, we’ll get the volume of water required to fill that space. That’s how much it would need to rain. That turns out to be 1,085,166,768 miles³of rain.

Now, let’s cut that by 25% because land, mountains, etc. occupy some of that volume. All that space would not be filled with water. The 25% figure is generous since oceans, which by definition sit at sea level, cover 70% of the earth and the rest of the earth isn’t nearly as high as Everest. But let’s grant the creationist this small charity.

That means that there had to be 813,875,076 miles³ of rain for the biblical flood. To put that in perspective, the oceans have about 321,000,000 miles³ of water. All the water on earth only adds up to about 332,500,000 miles³.So for the biblical flood to have happened, the water on earth had to miraculously multiply by about 250%.
Let’s try to put that in another perspective. The Atlantic Ocean is about 80,000,000 miles³.

That means, there needed to be more water than could be contained by ten Atlantic Oceans to rain as much as the bible claims.

 

[nPeace]

Another strange aspect of the story: it's Eve who takes the apple, but the story never mentions her being commanded not to take it. The story only mentions Adam being given that command - before Eve was even formed - and doesn't mention anything about him relaying that command to her.

This is very strong evidence imo, that the account is authentic. There was no effort on the part of the author, to fill in every detail.
One can easily fill the blanks using the rest of the scriptures.

The scriptures say, the two were one flesh. We tell our wife what's important to us, especially if it's as important as life and death. She is our closest companion.

The scriptures show that God always - without fail - gives reminders, or repeats instructions. There is never a case where he doesn't. So God likely reminded Adam, and Eve may have been present on such an occasion.

There is no reason to expect the scriptures to mention every detail. God gave us what we need.
It strikes me as odd that this would be an objection raised.
Even one Bible writer reasonably concluded his book this way...
There are also, in fact, many other things that Jesus did, which if ever they were written in full detail, I suppose the world itself could not contain the scrolls written. (John 21:25)

 

[nPeace]

FYI :

The volume of a sphere is easy to calculate: V = 4/3πr³

The earth has a radius of 3959 miles. Now we need to know the radius of the flood. That’s the earth radius, plus the height of Everest, plus 15 cubits (22ft). So 3959 miles + 29,028 ft +22 feet = 3959 miles + 29050 feet = 3959 miles + 5.5018939 miles = 3964.5018939 miles

If we plug those two radii in to our volume formula, we get the volumes:

259,923,241,564 miles³ for the volume of the earth.

261,008,408,332 miles³ for the volume of the earth at flood.

So, if we subtract the earth volume from the flood volume, we’ll get the volume of water required to fill that space. That’s how much it would need to rain. That turns out to be 1,085,166,768 miles³of rain.

Now, let’s cut that by 25% because land, mountains, etc. occupy some of that volume. All that space would not be filled with water. The 25% figure is generous since oceans, which by definition sit at sea level, cover 70% of the earth and the rest of the earth isn’t nearly as high as Everest. But let’s grant the creationist this small charity.

That means that there had to be 813,875,076 miles³ of rain for the biblical flood. To put that in perspective, the oceans have about 321,000,000 miles³ of water. All the water on earth only adds up to about 332,500,000 miles³.So for the biblical flood to have happened, the water on earth had to miraculously multiply by about 250%.
Let’s try to put that in another perspective. The Atlantic Ocean is about 80,000,000 miles³.

That means, there needed to be more water than could be contained by ten Atlantic Oceans to rain as much as the bible claims.

The flood occurred over 4,000 year ago, not today. We know that catastrophic climate and environmental conditions result in drastic changes to earth's topography. The thread is long, but see this thread for more on that.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The flood occurred over 4,000 year ago, not today. We know that catastrophic climate and environmental conditions result in drastic changes to earth's topography. The thread is long, but see this thread for more on that.

But that thread was a total catastrophe for flood believers. At best they only proved that they do not understand the nature of evidence. Or even what the plural of "evidence" is.

 

[nPeace]

But that thread was a total catastrophe for flood believers. At best they only proved that they do not understand the nature of evidence. Or even what the plural of "evidence" is.

Nonetheless it has a lot of information. Do you think one should keep repeating the same thing again and again, to the thousands dedicated to disproving the Biblical flood, or do you think it's good we have a thread that deals exclusively with the topic?
I can find all of a user's posts on a thread, by simply going to the search bar, typing in the title, and typing in the user's name.
I think that is better.

 

[Ancient Soul]

The flood occurred over 4,000 year ago, not today. We know that catastrophic climate and environmental conditions result in drastic changes to earth's topography. The thread is long, but see this thread for more on that.

Doesn't matter. There would still NOT be enough water on the earth or in the atmosphere to cover all the landmass of the entire earth.

Got any other excuses?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Nonetheless it has a lot of information. Do you think one should keep repeating the same thing again and again, to the thousands dedicated to disproving the Biblical flood, or do you think it's good we have a thread that deals exclusively with the topic?
I can find all of a user's posts on a thread, by simply going to the search bar, typing in the title, and typing in the user's name.
I think that is better.

The flood was disproved over two hundred years ago. When people refuse to learn the obvious has to be repeated. Why did you even bring it up?

 

[nPeace]

Doesn't matter. There would still NOT be enough water on the earth or in the atmosphere to cover all the landmass of the entire earth.

Got any other excuses?

We disagree. No excuses. It's more like what other objections do you have?

 

[Ancient Soul]

We disagree. No excuses. It's more like what other objections do you have?

Against the Christian mythology?

I have thousands of objections. But I'll wait until someone posts some of their nonsense, then I'll state my objections.

 

[nPeace]

The flood was disproved over two hundred years ago. When people refuse to learn the obvious has to be repeated. Why did you even bring it up?

You mean why do people on these forums keep bringing it up. If they believe it has been dis-proven, why not just let the believers talk about it? Do you imagine that the louder and more often you say "the flood has been dis-proven.", it will quiet the believers?
Not any more than saying the Bible is full of myths, will it.
Sorry.

 

[nPeace]

Against the Christian mythology?

I have thousands of objections. But I'll wait until someone posts some of their nonsense, then I'll state my objections.

What have you accomplished by that, beside stating real nonsense?

 

[Subduction Zone]

You mean why do people on these forums keep bringing it up. If they believe it has been dis-proven, why not just let the believers talk about it? Do you imagine that the louder and more often you say "the flood has been dis-proven.", it will quiet the believers?
Not any more than saying the Bible is full of myths, will it.
Sorry.

I have shown that it is a myth. What confuses me is why Bible literalists believe in a lying God.

Truth be told I used to be a Christian and I still do not like it when Christians look bad as a result. Conflating believing the myths of Genesis with being a Christian is a huge mistake.

 

[Subduction Zone]

What have you accomplished by that, beside stating real nonsense?

Please, don't forget the Ninth Commandment.

 

[Salvador]

FYI :

The volume of a sphere is easy to calculate: V = 4/3πr³

The earth has a radius of 3959 miles. Now we need to know the radius of the flood. That’s the earth radius, plus the height of Everest, plus 15 cubits (22ft). So 3959 miles + 29,028 ft +22 feet = 3959 miles + 29050 feet = 3959 miles + 5.5018939 miles = 3964.5018939 miles

If we plug those two radii in to our volume formula, we get the volumes:

259,923,241,564 miles³ for the volume of the earth.

261,008,408,332 miles³ for the volume of the earth at flood.

So, if we subtract the earth volume from the flood volume, we’ll get the volume of water required to fill that space. That’s how much it would need to rain. That turns out to be 1,085,166,768 miles³of rain.

Now, let’s cut that by 25% because land, mountains, etc. occupy some of that volume. All that space would not be filled with water. The 25% figure is generous since oceans, which by definition sit at sea level, cover 70% of the earth and the rest of the earth isn’t nearly as high as Everest. But let’s grant the creationist this small charity.

That means that there had to be 813,875,076 miles³ of rain for the biblical flood. To put that in perspective, the oceans have about 321,000,000 miles³ of water. All the water on earth only adds up to about 332,500,000 miles³.So for the biblical flood to have happened, the water on earth had to miraculously multiply by about 250%.
Let’s try to put that in another perspective. The Atlantic Ocean is about 80,000,000 miles³.

That means, there needed to be more water than could be contained by ten Atlantic Oceans to rain as much as the bible claims.

You've ever heard the Creationist argument the highest global mountain pre-Flood was less than 8,000 feet tall and that Noah's Flood made mountains much taller. ...

 

[MonkeyFire]

If you save Adam can you save Lucifer?