Thoughts on the Fall of Adam

[nPeace]

Well, I don't want to give too lengthy an answer at this time either. If I post all of my thoughts at the outset, what would I say later on. I agree that the very fact that Jesus Christ had been chosen before the world was even created to be the Redeemer of mankind is pretty strong evidence to me that God knew how things were going to unfold. So that raises another question: Did He want things to go the way they went or was He just powerless to keep it from happening? To me, had He really not wanted it to happen (i.e. for Adam and Eve to eat the forbidden fruit), it would have been the simplest thing imaginable for Him to keep it from happening. Obviously, He didn't need to put the tree in the garden in the first place, so why did He? I've asked this question of people before and have always received the same answer: He needed to give Adam and Eve their free will. Huh? Says who? Why on earth did He need to give them their free will if He knew it would only bring about misery? There's nothing in the Bible that says God had to do anything. If He'd wanted to make sure they remained in Eden forever more, He could have very simply made it happen. He probably could have even put the tree there. But not only did He put the tree there, He allowed the most deceitful, underhanded, unprincipled being ever created to tempt them with godhood! Seriously? Had He just put the tree there and told them not to eat its fruit, they likely wouldn't ever have even thought to disobey. But no. He let "the serpent" present them with what, in their ignorance of the complete picture, would have been a deal almost impossible to refuse. There's just no reason to think that there wasn't a much, much greater good to be derived from "the Fall" than most people stop to consider.

The Bible does say that Jesus Christ was chosen before the founding/foundation of the world, but many persons have apparently misunderstood this text.
What is the world, in the context used?
Is it the earth, or all mankind, or is it something else?

@KenS and @Katzpur how do you understand the texts at Luke 11:49-51. and Hebrews 4:3, if foundation of the world is referring to the beginning of the earth, or before all mankind?
It doesn't fit, does it? Do you find that to be the case?

If we understand the 'world' in light of texts such as is mentioned at John 3:16; 1 John 2:15-17; 1 John 5:19; then we can make sense of the text - it fits perfectly.
Here, the 'world' does not refer to the earth, nor all mankind.
So what does it refer to?
This world apparently starts from Adam's offspring - mankind born into an alienated state - the world Jesus Christ died for; the world which today chooses to remain alienated fro God, and thus is under Satan's rule.

What is the foundation (founding)?
The Greek word καταβολὴν is used. Definition: a laying down
It is translated conceive, or founding (some translations use foundation).

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
conception, foundation.
From kataballo; a deposition, i.e. Founding; figuratively, conception -- conceive, foundation.

see GREEK kataballo

Spoiler: Thayer's Greek Lexicon

STRONGS NT 2602: καταβολή
καταβολή, καταβολῆς, ἡ (καταβάλλω, which see);

1. a throwing or laying down: τοῦ σπέρματος (namely, εἰς τήνμήτραν), the injection or depositing of the virile semen in the womb, Lucian, amor. 19; Galen, aphorism. iv. § 1; of the seed of animals and plants, Philo de opif. mund. §§ 22, 45; σπέρματατά εἰς γῆν ἤ μήτραν καταβαλλομενα, Antoninus 4, 36; accordingly many interpret the words Σάρρα δύναμιν εἰςκαταβολήν σπέρματος ἔλαβε in Hebrews 11:11, she received power to conceive seed. But since it belongs to the male καταβάλλειν τό σπέρμα, not to the female, this interpretation cannot stand ((according to the reading of WH marginal reading αὐτῇ Σάρρα, Abr. remains the subjunctive of ἔλαβεν; but see 2 below)); cf. Bleek (and, on the other side, Kurtz) at the passage

2. a founding (laying down a foundation): εἰς καταβολήνσπέρματος, to found a posterity, Hebrews 11:11 (but compare above) (πυραννιδος, Polybius 13, 6, 2; ἅμα τῇ πρώτηκαταβολή τῶν ἀνθρώπων, Plato, aquae et ignis comp. C. 2). ἀπό καταβολῆς κόσμου, from the foundation of the world: Matthew 13:35 (L T Tr WH omit κόσμου); ; Luke 11:50; Hebrews 4:3; Hebrews 9:28; Revelation 13:8; Revelation 17:8; πρό καταβολῆς κόσμου, John 17:24; Ephesians 1:4; 1 Peter 1:20.

At Hebrews 11:11, it is rendered “to conceive” where it is used with “offspring”.
Used in the expression “founding (foundation) of the world,” it apparently refers to the conception and birth of children born to Adam and Eve.

Hence why Jesus associates “the founding (foundation) of the world” with Abel, evidently the first redeemable human of the world of mankind whose name was written in the scroll of life from the founding (foundation) of the world. - Luke 11:50, 51; Revelation 17:8.

I understand it's new to many, but one correct understanding of the scriptures, can make such a huge difference to understanding the overall picture - including the Adam and Eve account, and why we can be sure that the scriptures do not give support to God knowing beforehand that Adam would sin, and his son would have to die.

We know the creator is all powerful, so he had no reason for concern, if Adam did disobey. He is able to correct things, and undo any damage done. This he promised, and he did not hesitate to put things in motion right after the fall of man. Genesis 3:15
The seed - Jesus Christ - was bruised in the heel, when he was impaled, but he will crush the Devil in the head - a death stroke - and undo his works.
Romans 16:20 For his part, the God who gives peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. May the undeserved kindness of our Lord Jesus be with you.
1 John 3:8 The one who practices sin originates with the Devil, because the Devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was made manifest, to break up the works of the Devil.

They were given free will, as all of us are given. Deuteronomy 30:19
See here for more.

 

[nPeace]

If I were to warn my naturally curious 5 year old nephew not to play with knives, and then were to leave him alone in a room with a sharp knife. I'd feel somewhat responsible if he were then to harm himself with this knife. I'd feel as though I were more sadistic than benevolent. This hypothetical scenario is analogous to the story of Adam and Eve being tempted by low lying forbidden fruit left there by God who should have known his warning not to eat the forbidden fruit would not suffice in keeping away His naturally curious children. This makes God sadistic rather than benevolent. So then, to say the least, your God isn't always rather thoughtful.

You wouldn't give your 5 year old nephew a girlfriend, and tell him to get busy, would you? Adam and Eve were not like they portray cavemen. Their intelligence was actually way more advanced than most people think. In fact, Adam was the one that named the animals. He also was given a wife, and told to multiply.
Do you imagine Adam did not understood what it meant to multiply?
He definitely knew how to add, Genesis 2:24

 

[Deeje]

I had cancer, I had just survived the surgery but needed blood. My mom was in the waiting room with my churches elders and congregational friends. The doctor explained to my mom that the cancer was gone but without blood I would die. My mom agreed to the transfusions. The elders and her friends left her there alone. She was allowed to return to the Kingdom hall as was I and we were never excommunicated.

Wait....Millerites had a Kingdom Hall?

Kingdom Halls were not named as our meeting places till 1935 when J.F. Rutherford headed the Watchtower Bible Society. Something is not adding up about your story. Is memory not serving you well?

I am sorry to hear about your health problems. It appears as if you are around the same age as my daughter, so if you attended a Kingdom Hall, you must have been JW's....not Millerites. Any connection was through the Adventists in the late 1800"s.

According to Wiki..."The Bible Student movement had connections at the very beginning (in the early 2nd half of 19th century) with the Millerite movement. Charles Taze Russell later stated that "I confess indebtedness to Adventists as well as to other denominations". In light of this, the Bible Student Movement was influenced by Adventists roots, but did not emerge from the Millerism movement.[47]"

Millerism - Wikipedia

Concerning the blood transfusion issue.....In days gone and even up to the present, innumerable members of my brotherhood have been told the same thing...."you will die without blood"....in our experience, no one dies because of refusing a blood transfusion, but the media likes to beat those stories up. The truth be told, those who died because they refused blood would in the circumstances, have died anyway. Many of the media stories were about children suffering from leukemia who had basically endured chemo for years and had enough of the suffering and were happy to go to sleep. Blood would only have prolonged their suffering, not their lives. We have no fear of death.

Depending on the time period, the facts concerning the actual dangers of blood transfusions were not really known. Today, bloodless surgery and other medical management procedures are done without blood because the medical profession (those who have kept themselves up to date with the latest procedures) will not use blood except in extreme cases and even then, saving of life is not guaranteed even if blood is administered. Many more die after a blood transfusion than who die without them.

God's word is specific about the use of blood. It is a command that is reiterated three times in different time periods throughout the Bible. The first time was to Noah when they came out of the ark and humans were given permission to eat meat, but consuming its blood was forbidden. (Genesis 9:3-5)
It was mentioned again in the Law of Moses. (Leviticus 17:10-12) and again for Christians in Acts 15:28-29 as a necessary thing. Blood has a sacred significance to God. Since blood is given intravenously, many think that is not technically "eating" it. But when patients cannot consume food by mouth, they are often fed intravenously, so we can't see the difference.

Hospitals dedicated to bloodless medicine have sprung up all over the world because it has come to be appreciated as preferred medical practice.

Also don't hit children however you want to justify it to yourself

Its the law now you know. We found other ways to discipline our children because God is a disciplinarian and he advises his servants to discipline those who need it.....either children or adults. Children who are undisciplined are not fun to be around....undisciplined adults aren't either.

 

[nPeace]

Well, what do you think would have happened with Eve had she alone eaten the forbidden fruit?

My response to that question.

 

[Ancient Soul]

Colossians 3:12-14, is not about God’s ego. It’s about how we treat others.
In fact, that is a big part of worship....our actions toward others, giving people respect. You don’t think that’s spiritual?
Galatians 5:22-23.

NO!!!!

That's only a man made placebo for being "spiritual" because whoever the men were who wrote the bible had no true spiritual understandings at all, so had to make up stuff and PRETEND it's "spiritual".

Now the Christian mythology is based upon these things:

God - a SPIRITUAL Deity.
God's judgment - a SPIRITUAL process.
One's soul - a SPIRITUAL entity.
Heaven - a SPIRITUAL place.
The "afterlife" - a SPIRITUAL existence.

So go ahead and TRY to prove this statement wrong:

"My main concern over the bible is that it in no way came from any "god" because it is totally devoid of even the most basic spiritual matter. Now why would any "god" have a massive book written about himself that gives no spiritual understandings at all?"

Now go ahead, go and TRY to find any verses that CLEARLY defines or describes:

What is the true spiritual nature/attributes of God. (You can get bonus points if you can find any verse describing how he can know everything, be everywhere, run the entire universe, etc.)
What is involved in God's judgment of a soul?
What is a soul?
What is Heaven really like? What's there?
What is the "afterlife" going to be like and what will you be doing thru-out all eternity?

 

[nPeace]

Where there not any other persons around on Earth, besides this supposed one primordial couple allegedly tested by the Biblical God?

Not according to the Bible.

Based on human genetic diversity, there has always been an effective human population of around at least 10,0000 progenitors throughout any generation of human history.

I suppose you meant 10,000.
Based on the Biblical record, human genetic diversity has existed throughout all generations of human existence.

Human genetic diversity is too great for there to have ever been a human population size that consisted of less than 10,000 individuals. Pairwise Sequentially Markovian Coalescent (PSMC) analysis confirms a population bottleneck in humans that consisted of no fewer than 10,000 individuals. Source: ( Li, Heng, and Durbin, Richard. ) "Inference of Human Population History from Individual Whole-Genome Sequences". Nature International Weekly Journal of Science. 28 July 2001. PSMC estimate on simulated data. : Inference of human population history from individual whole-genome sequences : Nature : Nature Publishing Group

Really? On what basis is this concluded? Oh, inference.
The Bible makes clear that human genetic diversity was a product of design, and the diversity is not based on numbers.

If there were the most severe population bottle necking such as one breeding pair that is portrayed in the case of the Biblical or Koranic Adam and Eve, then there would be a maximum of 4 alleles passed on by Adam and Eve to their children. Furthermore, the subsequent inbreeding would cause some loss of alleles due to genetic drifting. There would not have been genetic diversity in the small group of Adam, Eve and their children who would've had to commit incest among each other for the procreation of their inbred children. A lack of genetic diversity would have persisted for thousands of generations until genetic mutations could cause the genetic diversity of today's population. Based on the number of different alleles there are for the number of genes within the current population and the known rate of mutations per nucleotide sites in humans, geneticists can calculate the minimum number of people needed to create the current amount of genetic diversity. Numerous genetic studies suggest that there were several thousands of people more than two people during the most severe population bottleneck which ever occurred in human history.

DNA segments ( Alu repeats ) insert themselves at various chromosomal locations. There are various forms of Alu sequences and several thousand families of Alu. One well-studied family of Alu is called Ya5, which has been inserted into human chromosomes at 57 mapped locations. If we were to have descended from a single pair of ancestors such as Adam and Eve, then we all would have each of the 57 elements inserted at the same location points of our chromosomes. " However, the human population consists of groups of people who share some insertion points but not others. The multiple shared categories make it clear that although a human population bottleneck occurred, it was definitely never as small as two. In fact, this line of evidence also indicates that there were at least several thousand people when the population was at its smallest". Source: ( Venema, Dennis and Falk, Darrel ) " Does Genetics Point to a Single Primal Couple?". 5 April 2010. Does Genetics Point to a Single Primal Couple? | The BioLogos Forum

Coalescence theory analysis of single nucleotide polymorphisms and linkage disequilibrium indicates the mean effective population size for hominid lineage is 100,000 individuals over the course of the last 30 million years. The effective population size estimated from linkage disequilibrium is a minimum of 10,000 followed by an expansion in the last 20,000 years." Source: ( Tenesa, Albert, Navarro, Paul, Hayes, Ben J., Duffy, David L., Clarke,Geraldine, Goodard, Mike E. and Visscher, Peter M.) " Recent Human Effective Population Size Estimated from Linkage Disequilibrium". Genome Research. 17 April 2007 Recent human effective population size estimated from linkage disequilibrium

These are of course attempts as reaching conclusion based on the best assumptions arrived at by individual trying to find out about the past.
The Bible contains a record of the past. Is it accurate?
So far it appears to be, and for the most part it has been confirmed by much archaeological and scientific findings..

[GALLERY=media, 8812]Population by nPeace posted Dec 28, 2018 at 2:19 AM[/GALLERY]
[GALLERY=media, 8813]BirthRate by nPeace posted Dec 28, 2018 at 2:22 AM[/GALLERY]

 

[Looncall]

NO!!!!

That's only a man made placebo for being "spiritual" because whoever the men were who wrote the bible had no true spiritual understandings at all, so had to make up stuff and PRETEND it's "spiritual".

Now the Christian mythology is based upon these things:

God - a SPIRITUAL Deity.
God's judgment - a SPIRITUAL process.
One's soul - a SPIRITUAL entity.
Heaven - a SPIRITUAL place.
The "afterlife" - a SPIRITUAL existence.

So go ahead and TRY to prove this statement wrong:

"My main concern over the bible is that it in no way came from any "god" because it is totally devoid of even the most basic spiritual matter. Now why would any "god" have a massive book written about himself that gives no spiritual understandings at all?"

Now go ahead, go and TRY to find any verses that CLEARLY defines or describes:

What is the true spiritual nature/attributes of God. (You can get bonus points if you can find any verse describing how he can know everything, be everywhere, run the entire universe, etc.)
What is involved in God's judgment of a soul?
What is a soul?
What is Heaven really like? What's there?
What is the "afterlife" going to be like and what will you be doing thru-out all eternity?

Easy. Your "whats" are scams by scoundrel clerics.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I can not recall ever hearing a sermon based on the Adam and Eve story by an Anglican priest. In fact It is rare for Genesis to be used at all other than as examples of story telling, While it is certainly possible that some Anglicans believe Genesis to be factual, I would suggest it is becoming increasingly rare for them to do so.
For this reason alone I find it hard to take the questions asked in the OP seriously, as from any reasonable point of view Adam and Eve are fictional and represent an archetypal belief that there was a definable first pair of humans. and how sin came into the world. It is rather like a Proto- example of a just so story by Rudyard Kipling.

 

[Kenny]

Only Eve was deceived. Adam sinned because he was aware that he very well might lose Eve and be alone again. (1 Timothy 2:14)

Just a thought... I'm not sure. As I read it, it sounded more like he was there with Eve and basically just didn't do anything about it. Just my personal musings.

 

[Kenny]

No, but you have to understand the difference between the two in order to make an informed choice between them, wouldn't you agree?

I think that was accomplished when God said "In the day that you eat of it, you shall die(Plural)".

Informed choice IMV. I would assume that Adam understood what God meant because it was Spirit to spirit.

 

[Kenny]

There were only two humans alive when they sinned.

Agreed. But that doesn't mean the decision couldn't have been made before they sinned. We are, of course, just speculating as there are no scriptures other that "Slain from the foundation of the world"

 

[Salvador]

The Bible contains a record of the past. Is it accurate?
So far it appears to be, and for the most part it has been confirmed by much archaeological and scientific findings..
]

Some Archaeology findings might prove some aspects of some Biblical stories are somewhat based on certain historical facts, but there are some archaeology findings that refute some Biblical stories.

For instance, There is archaeological evidence that there was never any significant flood having occurred anywhere near the place of Noah's Ark alleged landing spot during the most recent 12,000 years.

The 12,000 year old Göbekli Tepe archaeological site is evidence of non-deluged land having existed in the region near Mount Ararat for several thousands of years.

Göbekli Tepe - Wikipedia

According to the Bible, 422 years elapsed from the time of Noah's Flood until the birth of Abraham.
( Genesis 11:10-32 ) 529 years elapsed from Abraham's birth until the Ten Commandments were written ( Genesis 17:1-4) , ( Galatians 3:17). 480 years passed after this time until King Solomon's Temple was built during the fourth year of his rule in Jerusalem. ( 1 Kings 6:1 ) According to the Bible, Solomon ruled Israel for another 36 years afterwards, and several other kings ruled Jerusalem all together for 333 years after Solomon until the Babylonian siege of Jerusalem in 587 BC. ( Kings 1 and 2 ) Thus, the Biblical date Noah's Flood allegedly destroyed all life outside Noah's Ark was no earlier than 2400 BC.

The Date of Noah’s Flood - creation.com

Annual growth ring counts can determine the age of a bristle cone pine tree.
A now living four-thousand-nine-hundred-year-old tree would have been more than 500 years old at the time of Noah's Flood.

Bristlecone pine - Wikipedia

The bristlecone pine in California's White Mountains measured by Tom Harlan to be 5062 years old, would have been way over 600 years old years old at the time of Noah's Flood.

These trees are living monuments that there was never any globally catastrophic flood 4,400 years before now as claimed in the Bible.

 

[Kenny]

Hi Ken, I was planning on creating a thread on the "foundation" of the world, but for now, I would not mind hearing what you believe the "foundation" of the world is.

I think that 1 Peter gives a good understanding:

1 Peter 1:18-20 The Passion Translation (TPT)
18 For you know that your lives were ransomed once and for all from the empty and futile way of life handed down from generation to generation. It was not a ransom payment of silver and gold, which eventually perishes, 19 but the precious blood of Christ—who like a spotless, unblemished lamb was sacrificed for us.

20 This was part of God’s plan, for he was chosen and destined for this before the foundation of the earth was laid, but he has been made manifest in these last days for you.

kat-ab-ol-ay' Noun Feminine
Definition

1. a throwing or laying down
   1. the injection or depositing of the virile semen in the womb
   2. of the seed of plants and animals
2. a founding (laying down a foundation)

So, whether it is human, animal or thing, it is before it is even conceived in the natural.

 

[Kenny]

The Bible does say that Jesus Christ was chosen before the founding/foundation of the world, but many persons have apparently misunderstood this text.
What is the world, in the context used?
Is it the earth, or all mankind, or is it something else?

@KenS and @Katzpur how do you understand the texts at Luke 11:49-51. and Hebrews 4:3, if foundation of the world is referring to the beginning of the earth, or before all mankind?
It doesn't fit, does it? Do you find that to be the case?

If we understand the 'world' in light of texts such as is mentioned at John 3:16; 1 John 2:15-17; 1 John 5:19; then we can make sense of the text - it fits perfectly.
Here, the 'world' does not refer to the earth, nor all mankind.
So what does it refer to?
This world apparently starts from Adam's offspring - mankind born into an alienated state - the world Jesus Christ died for; the world which today chooses to remain alienated fro God, and thus is under Satan's rule.

What is the foundation (founding)?
The Greek word καταβολὴν is used. Definition: a laying down
It is translated conceive, or founding (some translations use foundation).

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
conception, foundation.
From kataballo; a deposition, i.e. Founding; figuratively, conception -- conceive, foundation.

see GREEK kataballo

Spoiler: Thayer's Greek Lexicon

STRONGS NT 2602: καταβολή
καταβολή, καταβολῆς, ἡ (καταβάλλω, which see);

1. a throwing or laying down: τοῦ σπέρματος (namely, εἰς τήνμήτραν), the injection or depositing of the virile semen in the womb, Lucian, amor. 19; Galen, aphorism. iv. § 1; of the seed of animals and plants, Philo de opif. mund. §§ 22, 45; σπέρματατά εἰς γῆν ἤ μήτραν καταβαλλομενα, Antoninus 4, 36; accordingly many interpret the words Σάρρα δύναμιν εἰςκαταβολήν σπέρματος ἔλαβε in Hebrews 11:11, she received power to conceive seed. But since it belongs to the male καταβάλλειν τό σπέρμα, not to the female, this interpretation cannot stand ((according to the reading of WH marginal reading αὐτῇ Σάρρα, Abr. remains the subjunctive of ἔλαβεν; but see 2 below)); cf. Bleek (and, on the other side, Kurtz) at the passage

2. a founding (laying down a foundation): εἰς καταβολήνσπέρματος, to found a posterity, Hebrews 11:11 (but compare above) (πυραννιδος, Polybius 13, 6, 2; ἅμα τῇ πρώτηκαταβολή τῶν ἀνθρώπων, Plato, aquae et ignis comp. C. 2). ἀπό καταβολῆς κόσμου, from the foundation of the world: Matthew 13:35 (L T Tr WH omit κόσμου); ; Luke 11:50; Hebrews 4:3; Hebrews 9:28; Revelation 13:8; Revelation 17:8; πρό καταβολῆς κόσμου, John 17:24; Ephesians 1:4; 1 Peter 1:20.

At Hebrews 11:11, it is rendered “to conceive” where it is used with “offspring”.
Used in the expression “founding (foundation) of the world,” it apparently refers to the conception and birth of children born to Adam and Eve.

Hence why Jesus associates “the founding (foundation) of the world” with Abel, evidently the first redeemable human of the world of mankind whose name was written in the scroll of life from the founding (foundation) of the world. - Luke 11:50, 51; Revelation 17:8.

I understand it's new to many, but one correct understanding of the scriptures, can make such a huge difference to understanding the overall picture - including the Adam and Eve account, and why we can be sure that the scriptures do not give support to God knowing beforehand that Adam would sin, and his son would have to die.

We know the creator is all powerful, so he had no reason for concern, if Adam did disobey. He is able to correct things, and undo any damage done. This he promised, and he did not hesitate to put things in motion right after the fall of man. Genesis 3:15
The seed - Jesus Christ - was bruised in the heel, when he was impaled, but he will crush the Devil in the head - a death stroke - and undo his works.
Romans 16:20 For his part, the God who gives peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. May the undeserved kindness of our Lord Jesus be with you.
1 John 3:8 The one who practices sin originates with the Devil, because the Devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was made manifest, to break up the works of the Devil.

They were given free will, as all of us are given. Deuteronomy 30:19
See here for more.

I'm not quite sure I can agree with the progression.

At Hebrews 11:11, it is rendered “to conceive” where it is used with “offspring”.
Used in the expression “founding (foundation) of the world,” it apparently refers to the conception and birth of children born to Adam and Eve.

A word can be used in different applications. I would disagree that "foundation of the world" in context of "the world" can then be interposed onto Heb 11:11. Different subject matter. Especially since the definition has multiple application.

 

[Etritonakin]

Christians have some pretty strong beliefs concerning Adam and Eve and their role in getting mankind where we are today. How do you view Adam and Eve? As villains? Heros? Something in between? Did God know they were going to eat the forbidden fruit? What was His purpose in putting the tree there in the first place? What would have happened had Adam and Eve never eaten the forbidden fruit? What, if any, role would Jesus Christ have had in the world had the Fall never taken place?

These are just a few of many questions we could consider in talking about the events as recorded in Genesis and which have such a bearing on our lives today. All respectful discussion welcome.

God not only put the tree there, but in a garden on a planet where he allowed Satan to interact with them.

Elsewhere in scripture, it is even stated that God purposes evil in order to bring about a good end result.
Adam and Eve did have a choice, but God allows evil to be done to the degree that will allow us to gain experience and eventually utterly reject it.

Man once did not know (experience) good and evil -only good. God knows (understands and has no desire to experience) good and evil, but is able to do only good -whereas man was ignorant and will later have understanding based on experience (and also have no desire to do evil).

While it may seem unfair -or a double standard -our perfection requires some sort of experience of imperfection, and God actually limits its effects and the time we experience it.
The sinning angels were restrained -doing only as God allows -and man was given limited power to affect the creation by their physical bodies (the earth becoming waste and ruin/formless and void was likely due to the angelic rebellion, etc. -which is why Satan was already Satan in Eden -after ascending "above the heights of the clouds" when he attempted the coup against God's throne).

God's intent for Adam and those who followed is to make them the children of God -to one day judge even the affairs of the angels and govern the universe with him. That requires training and experience. God did not desire to create blissfully happy and ignorant humans, but gods. (I said "ye are gods", etc.)

This whole "good and evil" and "destroy the earth" thing will be dealt with before we are allowed to go out into "the heavens" which "were formed to be inhabited" as stated in scripture.
We can't have this mess spreading throughout the universe for eternity, so we will be purified here and now. ("For he is like a refiner's fire", "he shall be saved, yet so as by fire")

Angelic "bodies" allow for greater-than-human abilities, but humans will one day be given a "glorious body" rather than this "vile body" (think similar to that which Moses saw the back parts of) -which will allow us to have creative power similar to Christ -who, as the Word, created all things in the first place.

Phil 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Then we will be free to joyously create without conflict forever.

 

[Earthling]

Just a thought... I'm not sure. As I read it, it sounded more like he was there with Eve and basically just didn't do anything about it. Just my personal musings.

Well, that isn't entirely inaccurate. Eve was deceived by Satan using the serpent as a puppet. That was her motivation. Adam knew that Eve could very well be put to death for what she had done and he feared being alone again.

When discovered, notice what Adam said. He tried to blame it on God and Eve. "The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me [fruit] from the tree and so I ate." He knew he wasn't supposed to eat it.

 

[viole]

These are great questions.

No, not villains at all IMO. Won't answer all at this time, might get too lengthy. Certainly much will be personal viewpoints but a great possible interaction of thoughts.

I think God knew that it was going to happen.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

I think the potential is that God knew all along and had already made provision for the fall.

your view?

What is the point of all that?

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

If God allows adam to sin, then shows him mercy, then adam now knows Gods love. You cant know grace, love, mercy without having broken an order.

I don’t think Eve was so impressed by God’s love. Have you tried to give birth to a child?

The really lucky one is the snake. Or serpent. I mean, the one who really started all this mess. The real, uncontroversial, villain in that story.

It has been condemned to walk on his belly. Which, given its morphology, does not look like much of a punishment.

Was it walking or flying before? Lol

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

Well, that isn't entirely inaccurate. Eve was deceived by Satan using the serpent as a puppet. That was her motivation. Adam knew that Eve could very well be put to death for what she had done and he feared being alone again.

So, God punished a puppet to walk on its belly?

When discovered, notice what Adam said. He tried to blame it on God and Eve. "The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me [fruit] from the tree and so I ate." He knew he wasn't supposed to eat it.

Little suggestion to God: next time you plan to create beings in your image, make them smarter ( so that we have no doubt about your image’s IQ). Those two like a couple of perfect clueless idiots.

Satan, too.

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

Christians have some pretty strong beliefs concerning Adam and Eve and their role in getting mankind where we are today. How do you view Adam and Eve? As villains? Heros? Something in between? Did God know they were going to eat the forbidden fruit? What was His purpose in putting the tree there in the first place? What would have happened had Adam and Eve never eaten the forbidden fruit? What, if any, role would Jesus Christ have had in the world had the Fall never taken place?

These are just a few of many questions we could consider in talking about the events as recorded in Genesis and which have such a bearing on our lives today. All respectful discussion welcome.

What worries me is life in heaven.

If two individuals, chatting with God in a magical garden almost daily, managed to mess things up, I wonder what are the chances that one in millions in heaven will not mess up again.

A second fall? And a third? And so on?

Ciao

- viole