Thousands of churches are closing across the U.S.

[Sand Dancer]

Both are communal.

Yes, I'm aware of that, but that really doesn't go against anything I said.

I think Judaism is more interactive than Christianity. Sorry to butt in.

 

[Rival]

I think Judaism is more interactive than Christianity. Sorry to butt in.

In what way would you say Judaism is more so?

 

[metis]

I think Judaism is more interactive than Christianity. Sorry to butt in.

Please clarify what you mean by "interactive" in this context.

 

[Muffled]

The era of "churchianity" is ending.

I believe that is the case. We will be reduced to those who truly believe and all the pretenders will drop away.

 

[John D. Brey]

In what way would you say Judaism is more so?

See message #139.



John

 

[John D. Brey]

I think Judaism is more interactive than Christianity. Sorry to butt in.

Jesus and his disciples went their way, off the stage of Israel's enduring life, and I would have thought then, and I think now, that Israel was right to let them take their leave. For theirs--- at least in the spectacle of Matthew's picture--- was a message for the individuals, but the Torah spoke to us all. Leave home, follow me; give it all up, follow me; take up your (personal) cross, follow me --- but then what of home, what of family and community and the social order that the Torah had commanded Israel to bring into being?

Rabbi Jacob Neusner, A Rabbi Talks with Jesus, p. 157.

Where Judaism affects man's mind from without, through social ceremonies and moral prohibitions, Christianity tries to change the mind from within, by demanding that people have a disposition that is itself capable of exercising the controls formerly located outside the mind, in the social fellowship. Christianity is the religion of consciousness because it makes consciousness - instead of something from outside - the regulator of human behavior. This suggests a tripartite division of the historical process. First there is a `preconscious phase' where people do not possess free will but act directly and without reflection upon the gods' commands. A `socially conscious phase' follows, in which free will is regulated via a social contract (the Ten Commandments) pronounced by a human being (Moses) with special abilities to hear God; focus is on the community and ceremonies. In the third phase, a `personally conscious phase', the relationship between man and God is again internal (as in the preconscious phase) but now is conscious: Free will implies the possibility of sin in mind as well as deed. Polytheistic religions all belong in the first phase, while Judaism and in part, Roman Catholicism belong to the second; Protestantism is a pure cultivation of the third phase.

Tor Norretrander's, The User Illusion.​

Fwiw, we're on the cusp of a forth phase . . ..



John

 

[Muffled]

This is actually very bad news for us all. As our churches have long been the heart and soul of our local communities.

Regardless of how you feel about religion, churches have been our community centers, recording births and deaths and marriages and reminding us on a weekly bases that we are a united community of human beings that share in each other's good fortune and suffer each other's heartbreaks. Everyone knew each other and had to look each other in the eye each week at church. And there would be a cost to those that behaved selfishly toward others as everyone else would know.

But that's mostly all gone, now. We're just a bunch of isolated, selfish, individuals looking out for #1. With no sense of community or responsibility toward God or anyone else. "One nation under God?" Not hardly. Now we're just one nation under the yoke of our mutual greed, fear, and selfish stupidity.

I believe Jesus predicted that would be the case.

 

[Sand Dancer]

In what way would you say Judaism is more so?

I think there's more sitting, standing, kneeling, etc. I guess it would be similar to a Catholic mass, which I think would be harder to do online as well. Protestant services, you mostly sit, unless you are standing to sing a hymn or something like that.

 

[Rival]

I think there's more sitting, standing, bowing, etc. I guess it would be similar to a Catholic mass, which I think would be harder to do online as well. Protestant services, you mostly sit, unless you are standing to sing a hymn or something like that.

There's a lot of this at Anglican services as well; I'm only used to those services and Catholic Masses. I think Catholicism/Anglicanism/Orthodoxy are so far from mainline US Protestantism that we have to discuss them separately.

@John D. Brey I would suggest this to you, as well; Protestants are very individualised, but Catholics, Anglicans and Orthodox are very communal.

 

[John D. Brey]

There's a lot of this at Anglican services as well; I'm only used to those services. I think Catholicism/Anglicanism/Orthodoxy are so far from mainline US Protestantism that we have to discuss them separately.

@John D. Brey I would suggest this to you, as well; Protestants are very individualised, but Catholics, Anglicans and Orthodox are very communal.

The quotation I pointed out from Tor Norettranders stated precisely that.

This suggests a tripartite division of the historical process. First there is a `preconscious phase' where people do not possess free will but act directly and without reflection upon the gods' commands. A `socially conscious phase' follows, in which free will is regulated via a social contract (the Ten Commandments) pronounced by a human being (Moses) with special abilities to hear God; focus is on the community and ceremonies. In the third phase, a `personally conscious phase', the relationship between man and God is again internal (as in the preconscious phase) but now is conscious: Free will implies the possibility of sin in mind as well as deed. Polytheistic religions all belong in the first phase, while Judaism and in part, Roman Catholicism belong to the second; Protestantism is a pure cultivation of the third phase.

Tor Norretrander's, The User Illusion.​

As I noted earlier, we're on the cusp of a fourth phase.



John

 

[PureX]

I agree with some of this. But technology is making it easier to do everything from home, work, church, whatever, so that I wouldn't read too much into the demise of brick-n-mortar churches since the church I attend is, and has always been, in my heart.

As an adjunct, one could argue that the modern age is custom tailored for Christians and Christianity since unlike Judaism, or most other religions, Christianity is in fact a religion of the individual not the communal.

Rabbi Jacob Neusner pointed this out in his book, A Rabbi Talks with Jesus, where he claims Jesus appears to have been the greatest Torah scholar of his day, but that he (Rabbi Neusner) would still not have joined his cause since, as the Rabbi says, Jesus looked a man in the eye and asked for individual faith, not communal, or corporate, allegiance.

Christianity can thrive as a discrete community of sovereign individuals. The passing of the glad-handing, the dog and pony show required to get the faithful into the pews, and the shakedowns for money to build a bigger basketball court behind the church could be a boon to a more serious brand of Christianity.

John

Christianity is about a 'way of being'. It's about being a manifestation of the divine spirit of God within us to and within the world we inhabit. In that sense it is fundamentally a "team sport". It's all about who we are to and for each other. That can't really happen on a computer screen. It requires that we meet each other face to face. That we love each other face to face. That we forgive each other face to face. That we hold and raise each other up face to face. And by "us" I don't mean just within a small church community, but as members of the human species, and as participants in the advent of life on Earth.

When we lived in more or less isolated small rural communities, the church did act as a place where the people could meet and serve each other. But as our societies became huge and infinitely more abstract and complex, and under assault by the greed machine of capitalist consumption, the isolated church groups began to turn in on themselves. And became little mini-cult just to maintain their cohesion within a very large and boisterous secular society. The 'brotherhood of man' was sacrificed for the spectre of internal righteousness.

I think the only effective way forward for Christianity is to stop focusing on religious righteousness and start focusing on actual service to others. Creating unity through the shared goal of effecting real, positive changes in the lives of everyone they interact with. To turn their focus outward, instead of inward. And keep it on positive action, not on spreading 'righteous dogma'.

 

[PureX]

I believe that is the case. We will be reduced to those who truly believe and all the pretenders will drop away.

A cult, essentially.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Christianity is about a 'way of being'. It's about being a manifestation of the divine spirit of God within us to and within the world we inhabit. In that sense it is fundamentally a "team sport". It's all about who we are to and for each other. That can't really happen on a computer screen. It requires that we meet each other face to face. That we love each other face to face. That we forgive each other face to face. That we hold and raise each other up face to face. And by "us" I don't mean just within a small church community, but as members of the human species, and as participants in the advent of life on Earth.

When we lived in more or less isolated small rural communities, the church did act as a place where the people could meet and serve each other. But as our societies became huge and infinitely more abstract and complex, and under assault by the greed machine of capitalist consumption, the isolated church groups began to turn in on themselves. And became little mini-cult just to maintain their cohesion within a very large and boisterous secular society. The 'brotherhood of man' was sacrificed for the spectre of internal righteousness.

I think the only effective way forward for Christianity is to stop focusing on religious righteousness and start focusing on actual service to others. Creating unity through the shared goal of effecting real, positive changes in the lives of everyone they interact with. To turn their focus outward, instead of inward. And keep it on positive action, not on spreading 'righteous dogma'.

I think United Church of Christ is pretty service focused. The progressive Catholic church I was attending is very service focused.

 

[John D. Brey]

Christianity is about a 'way of being'. It's about being a manifestation of the divine spirit of God within us to and within the world we inhabit. In that sense it is fundamentally a "team sport". It's all about who we are to and for each other. That can't really happen on a computer screen. It requires that we meet each other face to face. That we love each other face to face. That we forgive each other face to face. That we hold and raise each other up face to face. And by "us" I don't mean just within a small church community, but as members of the human species, and as participants in the advent of life on Earth.

When we lived in more or less isolated small rural communities, the church did act as a place where the people could meet and serve each other. But as our societies became huge and infinitely more abstract and complex, and under assault by the greed machine of capitalist consumption, the isolated church groups began to turn in on themselves. And became little mini-cult just to maintain their cohesion within a very large and boisterous secular society. The 'brotherhood of man' was sacrificed for the spectre of internal righteousness.

I think the only effective way forward for Christianity is to stop focusing on religious righteousness and start focusing on actual service to others. Creating unity through the shared goal of effecting real, positive changes in the lives of everyone they interact with. To turn their focus outward, instead of inward. And keep it on positive action, not on spreading 'righteous dogma'.

In this context how do you interpret 1 John 2:15-17?



John

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

In most/many small towns, the three most populace things are churches, fastfood and banks.

In the UK there and now only banks still open in the larger towns. And some of those are now multi banks, serving the customers of several different banks. I have not been in a bank for over five years.

 

[PureX]

In this context how do you interpret 1 John 2:15-17?

John

It's poor poetics. As our own selfishness and hedonism are being called "the world". But selfishness and hedonism are not in the world, they're in us. So it's not the world that should be avoided, it's our own selfishness and pleasure-seeking, especially at the expense of others, and the world.

This is why we should not make false idols of words written by men, treating them as if they came from God's mouth. They did not. And men are fallible, and so are the words they write. The idea, here, was sound, I think. But the way it was expressed was very sloppy, and has led to much misunderstanding.

 

[John D. Brey]

It's poor poetics.

John is a poor poet. Ok.

As our own selfishness and hedonism are being called "the world".

I'd be the first to concede that eisegesis is part of exegesis. But this goes a bit too far in my opinion. You get to say what John says even if he doesn't agree, which is still legit to some degree if you believe that's what he meant. But in your later statements we see that you don't give a darn what he meant. All that matters is what you believe.

But selfishness and hedonism are not in the world, they're in us.

For "selfishness" do you mean like telling everyone you don't care what the Apostle John said; you know what he should have said, or what he meant, even if he didn't have the sense to mean it? And for "hedonism" do you mean a dogmatism that is self-referencing and circular: What John says doesn't matter because I say it doesn't matter?

So it's not the world that should be avoided, it's our own selfishness and pleasure-seeking, especially at the expense of others, and the world.

From where I'm situated you appear to be pleasuring yourself at the expense of the Bible and one of Jesus' beloved disciples. Your opinion appears to be running roughshod over John's opinion even though you seem to think that kind of self-ingratiating prose is properly sanctified by false-humility.

This is why we should not make false idols of words

Can I carve that into wood and hang it in my hallway?

written by men, treating them as if they came from God's mouth.

You are a man no? And those words came from your mouth yes? And they speak dogmatically, almost as if they came from God's own lips no?

Fwiw, those of us who believe in verbal plenary inspiration of the prophets believe the words from John's mouth, lips, and or what is written from him, are from God himself.

They did not. And men are fallible, and so are the words they write.

Those words are written by a man no? So they are fallible yes?

The idea, here, was sound, I think. But the way it was expressed was very sloppy, and has led to much misunderstanding.

John was just John. He wasn't you. God saved you for a more important mission: delivering the truth dogmatically and more authoritatively/poetically than the Apostle John. With one of the initial volley's being to put the lie to John's sloppy rendition of truth in order to prepare the way for a voice crying out in the wilderness of little minds like John's and mine: yours.



John

 

[PureX]

John is a poor poet. Ok.

I'd be the first to concede that eisegesis is part of exegesis. But this goes a bit too far in my opinion. You get to say what John says even if he doesn't agree, which is still legit to some degree if you believe that's what he meant. But in your later statements we see that you don't give a darn what he meant. All that matters is what you believe.

I don't know what he 'meant'. I only know what he is purported to have written, according to the scribes and translators. And what he wrote does not make logical sense, to me. Partly because it's poetic language and partly because it's a poor simile.

And yes, all that matters to me is what I believe he was trying to say, though badly. How could it possibly be otherwise? I am the one reading the text, and interpreting the words, for myself, after all.

For "selfishness" do you mean like telling everyone you don't care what the Apostle John said; you know what he should have said, or what he meant, even if he didn't have the sense to mean it? And for "hedonism" do you mean a dogmatism that is self-referencing and circular: What John says doesn't matter because I say it doesn't matter?

This is a lot of childish nonsense. I read the words of the linked quote, which means I interpreted them according to my understanding of language and existence. I cannot do otherwise and neither can anyone else. Then I shared my considered response also via my understanding of language and existence. That's it. There's nothing more going on, here.

From where I'm situated you appear to be pleasuring yourself at the expense of the Bible and one of Jesus' beloved disciples. Your opinion appears to be running roughshod over John's opinion even though you seem to think that kind of self-ingratiating prose is properly sanctified by false-humility.

Actually, I was giving the author the benefit of the doubt by presuming he was just a lousy poet that unfortunately chose a very poor simile resulting in this assertion that the world is somehow evil and should be shunned by us so that it doesn't invite us to sin. When in fact the sin is within ours own hearts and minds, not the world, and we then use and abuse the world around us to fulfill that sinful nature within us.

You are a man no? And those words came from your mouth yes? And they speak dogmatically, almost as if they came from God's own lips no?

I read the quote and gave you my considered response. That's all that happened. No gods were involved that I know of, and no dogmas were set forth.

Fwiw, those of us who believe in verbal plenary inspiration of the prophets believe the words from John's mouth, lips, and or what is written from him, are from God himself.

Well, that certainly explains the childish, accusatory, response. I'm sorry if my determination not to idolize any human being's words or ideas in that way offended you.

 

[SDavis]

Church attendance has been dropping and it seems religion is losing a little ground every year.

Thousands of churches are closing across the U.S.

Churches are closing at an alarming rate in the United States, according to researchers, as congregations shrink across the country and a younger generation of Americans abandon Christianity entirely – even as faith continues to dominate American politics.

As the United States adjusts to an increasingly non-religious population, thousands of churches close each year, a trend that experts believe has accelerated since the Covid-19 pandemic.......

According to Lifeway Research, approximately 4,500 Protestant churches closed in 2019, the most recent year for which data is available, with approximately 3,000 new churches opening. It was the first time the number of churches in the United States had not increased since the evangelical firm began researching the subject. With the pandemic hastening a broader trend of Americans abandoning Christianity, researchers believe the closures will only have accelerated.

Protestant pastors reported that typical church attendance is only 85% of pre-pandemic levels, according to McConnell, while research by the Survey Center on American Life and the University of Chicago found that in spring 2022, 67% of Americans reported attending church at least once a year, compared to 75% before the pandemic.

However, while Covid-19 may have accelerated the decline, there is a broader, long-running trend of people abandoning religion. In 2017, Lifeway surveyed young adults aged 18 to 22 who had attended church on a regular basis for at least a year during high school. The firm discovered that seven out of ten people had stopped attending church on a regular basis."

Churches are closing at an alarming rate in the United StatesChurches are closing at an alarming rate in the United States.

I see it as prophecy being fulfilled _ what is written in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 let no man deceive you by any: for that day shall not come except there be a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed the son of perdition.

Falling away, as many believe would be Christians displaying a lack of belief and faith in the gospel. And this must happen before the man of sin is revealed.
And when I read some of the beliefs Christians now have it's somewhat staggering.
Some feel covid has scared people away from attending church which has it's merits but when you look at the percentage of what Christians believe one should wonder.

The State of Theology: What Evangelicals Believe in 2022

2022/The State of Theology: What Evangelicals Believe in 2022

Christian, What Do You Believe? Survey Says Probably a Heresy About Jesus

Belief in God in U.S. Dips to 81%, a New Low

 

[paarsurrey]

" Thousands of churches are closing across the U.S. "

Church attendance has been dropping and it seems religion is losing a little ground every year.

Thousands of churches are closing across the U.S.

Churches are closing at an alarming rate in the United States, according to researchers, as congregations shrink across the country and a younger generation of Americans abandon Christianity entirely – even as faith continues to dominate American politics.

As the United States adjusts to an increasingly non-religious population, thousands of churches close each year, a trend that experts believe has accelerated since the Covid-19 pandemic.......

According to Lifeway Research, approximately 4,500 Protestant churches closed in 2019, the most recent year for which data is available, with approximately 3,000 new churches opening. It was the first time the number of churches in the United States had not increased since the evangelical firm began researching the subject. With the pandemic hastening a broader trend of Americans abandoning Christianity, researchers believe the closures will only have accelerated.

Protestant pastors reported that typical church attendance is only 85% of pre-pandemic levels, according to McConnell, while research by the Survey Center on American Life and the University of Chicago found that in spring 2022, 67% of Americans reported attending church at least once a year, compared to 75% before the pandemic.

However, while Covid-19 may have accelerated the decline, there is a broader, long-running trend of people abandoning religion. In 2017, Lifeway surveyed young adults aged 18 to 22 who had attended church on a regular basis for at least a year during high school. The firm discovered that seven out of ten people had stopped attending church on a regular basis."

Churches are closing at an alarming rate in the United StatesChurches are closing at an alarming rate in the United States.

Since Second Coming has already taken place, in the form of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908, haven't the churches lost and or served their purpose, please?
Right?

Regards