Thy Kingdom Come, Thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.

[TransmutingSoul]

This prayer would have been offered trillions of times.

First What is it asking for?

An individuals answer to that question, will clarify if the next questions are relevant.

Has Jesus acheive this?
Has Muhammad achieved this?
Has any past Faith yet Acheived this?

I have my thoughts.



Regards Tony

 

[danieldemol]

This prayer would have been offered trillions of times.

First What is it asking for?

An individuals answer to that question, will clarify if the next questions are relevant.

Has Jesus acheive this?
Has Muhammad achieved this?
Has any past Faith yet Acheived this?

I have my thoughts.

View attachment 98769

Regards Tony

It's asking for a theocracy in my view.
I would say only Muhammad achieved this in his lifetime, although Jesus followers established theocracy in various places after his lifetime.

I know Baha'i have theocratic ambitions in my view, but as of yet neither Baha'u'llah nor his followers have achieved theocracy (although I could be wrong about Baha'u'llah's followers in some small villages).

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It's asking for a theocracy in my view.
I would say only Muhammad achieved this in his lifetime, although Jesus followers established theocracy in various places after his lifetime.

I know Baha'i have theocratic ambitions in my view, but as of yet neither Baha'u'llah nor his followers have achieved theocracy (although I could be wrong about Baha'u'llah's followers in some small villages).

I personally do not see it is calling for a theocracy. The same book that prayer comes from also offers that men's rule is a given part of faith.

"Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's"

You are not entirly correct about a Baha'i Theocracy. (I do not think it can yet be envisioned)

Baha'u'llah has confirmed that Monarchy supported by a democratically elected Government are desirable for the rule of humanity. Rendering unto God is that we are governed by morals and virtues that promote a healthy society.

How all that will look will be many centuries away.

First we need a lesser peace. Then the structure can be built and global consultation and actions.

Regards Tony

 

[idea]

Imagine a world where everyone is equal. Such a world is the opposite of a kingdom or hierarchy.

A good parent encourages their child's independence, does not try to control them forever. A better world is one where everyone has a say in how their lives are run, not an eternal heirarchy.

 

[danieldemol]

I personally do not see it is calling for a theocracy. The same book that prayer comes from also offers that men's rule is a given part of faith.

"Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's"

Tony if a book says A *and* says B you cannot logically deny that it said A by pointing out that it also said B in my view. As I understand it in the Biblical narrative that is an intermediate commandment given temporarily until Jesus returns to rule as conquering king along with the disciples to "rule them1 with an iron scepter" Revelation 2:27

1(ie the nations)

You are not entirly correct about a Baha'i Theocracy. (I do not think it can yet be envisioned)

Thank you for your admission that I am at least partially correct, however if you cannot envision a Baha'i theocracy then you have no way of being able to say that I am partially wrong since you cannot personally envision what a Baha'i theocracy would look like to compare it to what I and in my view Shoghi Effendi envisioned it to be.

Baha'u'llah has confirmed that Monarchy supported by a democratically elected Government are desirable for the rule of humanity. Rendering unto God is that we are governed by morals and virtues that promote a healthy society.

How all that will look will be many centuries away.

The problem is to compare the Baha'i system to democracy is an extremely loose perhaps even entirely semantic definition of the term. According to my understanding the Baha'i theocracy would not be a 2 or more party system where we can vote between the two, instead it would be comprised of individual Baha'i who are of good standing only who could be elected and non-Baha'i and so called "Covenant Breakers" are not even gauranteed a vote.

There was one Baha'i on here if i recall who claimed that he recieved a letter from the Universal House of Justice stating that in the Baha'i "Most Great Peace" non -Baha'i and covenant breakers are gauranteed a vote, however I could not find this letter published or publicly available, which means all non-Baha'i and so called "covenant breakers" have to go on is hearsay about what an individual says the Haifan Baha'i UHoJ says, and if they are not prepared to publicly comment on this in our favour now whilst non-Baha'i are in the majority the chances of us getting the vote in a hypothetical future Baha'i theocracy based on hearsay look vanishingly thin to me I'm afraid.

First we need a lesser peace. Then the structure can be built and global consultation and actions.

Regards Tony

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Imagine a world where everyone is equal. Such a world is the opposite of a kingdom or hierarchy.

A good parent encourages their child's independence, does not try to control them forever. A better world is one where everyone has a say in how their lives are run, not an eternal heirarchy.

Yes, just imagine a world everyone is equal.

Imagine
(written and composed by
John Lennon and Yoko Ono)

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today... Aha-ah...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion, too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace... You...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world... You...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

 

[The Hammer]

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Imagine a world where everyone is equal. Such a world is the opposite of a kingdom or hierarchy.

A good parent encourages their child's independence, does not try to control them forever. A better world is one where everyone has a say in how their lives are run, not an eternal heirarchy.

As a Baha'i I do not have to imagine it. We live it.

The only issue with your comment is that Liberty needs boundaries. So having a say, means we need a democratic order.

At times how we run and live our lives, also needs moderation. The greatest example.of this is the extremes between absolute wealth and poverty.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Thank you for your admission that I am at least partially correct, however if you cannot envision a Baha'i theocracy then you have no way of being able to say that I am partially wrong since you cannot personally envision what a Baha'i theocracy would look like to compare it to what I and in my view Shoghi Effendi envisioned it to be.

I am aware of what is in the writings on this topic, you may not be.

Thy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven, cannot be a theocracy, as it also says in the book that offered the prayer, that My Kingdom is not of this world.

There must be a greater awareness we have to find.

Regards Tony

 

[danieldemol]

I am aware of what is in the writings on this topic, you may not be.

Thy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven, cannot be a theocracy, as it also says in the book that offered the prayer, that My Kingdom is not of this world.

There must be a greater awareness we have to find.

Regards Tony

Again Tony if a book says A *and* says B you cannot logically deny that it said A by pointing out that it also said B in my view.

The Biblical narrative is that Jesus came to establish his kingdom in the hearts the first time round until the time of his second coming when He and the disciples would rule this world
as conquering king along with the disciples to "rule them1 with an iron scepter" Revelation 2:27

1(ie the nations).

There are no doubt a myriad Bible references concerning the first coming of Jesus which you will in my view decontextualise to misportray the Biblical narrative regarding the second coming, my suggestion is to read it all from start to finish rather than decontextualising to suit your agenda of denial.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Again Tony if a book says A *and* says B you cannot logically deny that it said A by pointing out that it also said B in my view.

The Biblical narrative is that Jesus came to establish his kingdom in the hearts the first time round until the time of his second coming when He and the disciples would rule this world
as conquering king along with the disciples to "rule them1 with an iron scepter" Revelation 2:27

1(ie the nations).

There are no doubt a myriad Bible references concerning the first coming of Jesus which you will in my view decontextualise to misportray the Biblical narrative regarding the second coming, my suggestion is to read it all from start to finish rather than decontextualising to suit your agenda of denial.

It may be you are not able to envision a world where Faith is a way of life. Where the word Theocracy has absolutely no meaning.

One is not able to paint the future with outdated past concepts.

Regards Tony

 

[danieldemol]

It may be you are not able to envision a world where Faith is a way of life. Where the word Theocracy has absolutely no meaning.

One is not able to paint the future with outdated past concepts.

Regards Tony

To the contrary it is when faith becomes a way of life that the problems with theocracy have their deepest meaning in my view. Just ask dissenters under the Taliban if Faith being a way of life makes theocracy meaningless.

 

[YoursTrue]

This prayer would have been offered trillions of times.

First What is it asking for?

An individuals answer to that question, will clarify if the next questions are relevant.

Has Jesus acheive this?
Has Muhammad achieved this?
Has any past Faith yet Acheived this?

I have my thoughts.

View attachment 98769

Regards Tony

I realize many people utter this prayer by rote in church and it sounds nice I guess, but from my conversations with people many do not know what it means and their preachers must not explain it because they still don't know what it means. I'll first start with the idea that Jesus told his disciples they are to pray that way (what you quoted above, in part). There's more to it, but I leave it at that for now.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I realize many people utter this prayer by rote in church and it sounds nice I guess, but from my conversations with people many do not know what it means and their preachers must not explain it because they still don't know what it means. I'll first start with the idea that Jesus told his disciples they are to pray that way (what you quoted above, in part). There's more to it, but I leave it at that for now.

I see you may already have provided part of the answer.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

To the contrary it is when faith becomes a way of life that the problems with theocracy have their deepest meaning in my view. Just ask dissenters under the Taliban if Faith being a way of life makes theocracy meaningless.

I see that is your own issue. You are pulling the worst example of theocracy available and trying to frame a future with it, a future that will in no way embrace such a degradation of religion.

Regards Tony

 

[danieldemol]

I see that is your own issue. You are pulling the worst example of theocracy available and trying to frame a future with it, a future that will in no way embrace such a degradation of religion.

Regards Tony

Don't like the Taliban? Fine. Let's choose a similar example to the Baha'i faith, let us consider an Ahmadiyya or Jehovah's Witness theocracy, have you asked their dissenters whether the word theocracy becomes meaningless in cases where faith was a way of life for them and they had to face community repercussions for holding views outside the pale?

Still don't like those examples? How about asking so called Baha'i covenant breakers if the word theocracy is meaningless to them, or even ex-baha'i who came from large Baha'i communities?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

This prayer would have been offered trillions of times.

First What is it asking for?

An individuals answer to that question, will clarify if the next questions are relevant.

Has Jesus acheive this?
Has Muhammad achieved this?
Has any past Faith yet Acheived this?

I have my thoughts.

View attachment 98769

Regards Tony

In Christianity, the Church is viewed as the visible expression of God's Kingdom on earth. So it has been accomplished in their view.
"The kingdom of God means, then, the ruling of God in our hearts; it means those principles which separate us off from the kingdom of the world and the devil; it means the benign sway of grace; it means the Church as that Divine institution whereby we may make sure of attaining the spirit of Christ and so win that ultimate kingdom of God Where He reigns without end in "the holy city, the New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God" (Revelation 21:2)."

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Kingdom of God

In this expression the innermost teaching of the Old Testament is summed up, but it should be noted that the word kingdom means ruling as well; thus it signifies not so much the actual kingdom as the sway of the king

www.newadvent.org

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Don't like the Taliban? Fine. Let's choose a similar example to the Baha'i faith, let us consider an Ahmadiyya or Jehovah's Witness theocracy, have you asked their dissenters whether the word theocracy becomes meaningless in cases where faith was a way of life for them and they had to face community repercussions for holding views outside the pale?

Still don't like those examples? How about asking so called Baha'i covenant breakers if the word theocracy is meaningless to them, or even ex-baha'i who came from large Baha'i communities?

All your views danieldemol. There is no compulsion in Religion. You are still using examples that are not allowing a choice of faith.

If you choose to join, you choose to embrace the laws. If you have chosen to join and do not want to follow the laws, then withdraw and do something else in life, quite simple really.

Every Nation has laws and one cannot withdraw from those laws, just break them.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

In Christianity, the Church is viewed as the visible expression of God's Kingdom on earth. So it has been accomplished in their view.
"The kingdom of God means, then, the ruling of God in our hearts; it means those principles which separate us off from the kingdom of the world and the devil; it means the benign sway of grace; it means the Church as that Divine institution whereby we may make sure of attaining the spirit of Christ and so win that ultimate kingdom of God Where He reigns without end in "the holy city, the New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God" (Revelation 21:2)."

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Kingdom of God

In this expression the innermost teaching of the Old Testament is summed up, but it should be noted that the word kingdom means ruling as well; thus it signifies not so much the actual kingdom as the sway of the king

www.newadvent.org

I see a lot of good thoughts in that reply. Ruling our hearts, I also see is the Kingdom coming from Heaven.

Regards Tony

 

[danieldemol]

Every Nation has laws and one cannot withdraw from those laws, just break them.

Regards Tony

Exactly on your final paragraph Tony, in my view in a future Baha'i theocracy Baha'i laws would be the law of the nations or the law of the land.

Thus non-Baha'i would be compelled to follow a subset of the rules of your religion in my view whether they chose to be Baha'i or not.

This is from the Universal House of Justice (27th April 1995)
'The Bahá’ís will be called upon to assume the reins of government when they will come to constitute the majority of the population in a given country, and even then their participation in political affairs is bound to be limited in scope unless they obtain a similar majority in some other countries as well.

(19 November 1939)​

The Bahá’ís must remain non-partisan in all political affairs. In the distant future, however, when the majority of a country have become Bahá’ís then it will lead to the establishment of a Bahá’í State.

(19 April 1941)'

'These phrases are “Bahá’í theocracy” and “humanity will emerge from that immature civilization in which church and state are separate.”'

Source: https://www.bahai.org/library/autho...ages/19950427_001/19950427_001.xhtml?59532be8