Time: Does the Bible say what Time is?

[Terry Sampson]

Einsteins' theories

I don't get any friends saying this, but: As clever as he was, he was a bit of a crack-pot.

 

[Terry Sampson]

If you accept a cosmos that always existed, you will obviously have no problem with the concept of a Creator who also existed?

No problem at all.

 

[dybmh]

I agree except for 'time existing before God created Heaven and Earth". (John 1:1) says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." So, in the beginning was God. But God has always existed, so because He was before the beginning, he was before time.

With time, it seems to me, you need both a start and an end. The start would be 'in the beginning'. The end will be the accomplishment of His purpose and the end of all that He has created

(Eph. 1:10) (1 Peter 4:7) (Rev. 21:1-7)

Good-Ole-Rebel

I don't see the two as necessarily contradictory. The Genesis story says: In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth... God spoke, and there it was. It started with divine speech, a word?

 

[Native]

I would love to see which religion has a better explanation than the Bible in Genesis.
Show me please.

Personally I find the Biblical Genesis OK but not that specific and in spite the one-sided male creator.
In other religions there are both male and female deities participating in the creation.
You can for instants take the Norse Mythology and the Egyptian Ogdoad tellings. Both of these speaks of eternal creation and recreation.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I would love to see which religion has a better explanation than the Bible in Genesis.
Show me please.

I think the explanation in my belief (I am an 'advaitist' Hindu - believer in non-duality) is the best. It says time is a mirage, an illusion, 'maya'.
Have something better than that?

Before the first day, there was no light shining on the Earth.
After the creation of light, the first day began, and Time started to count down to today.
Before the first day, God created the Heavens and the earth.
The period in which God created the Earth was from "In the Beginning" to before the "First day".

Time does not actually exist, ..

You too agree that time does not exist. In another post you say 'I think Time is imaginary'. Even movement is imaginary.
Which means what is written in Bible is false, just a made up story. Why does God mislead people into believing false things?

Science knows only about the inflation and what happened after that. There are various theories about what happened before that (Big Bang), but nothing final yet.

 

[shmogie]

I noticed how fellow members discussed Time on one of the threads about if life is found on Mars, will we be able to handle it?.
What I found is that various claims are made about the attributes of "Time", and there is a lot of misunderstandings as well as solid facts explained by all.

I thought it will be a nice thread to create to have everyone scrutinizing, not only their opinions, but also mine.
Well, my understanding comes from the Biblical view, because I have learned quite a while ago that using knowledge from this point of view always turns out to be logical and conclusive.
So, Here Go!

Concerning Time, the Bible says: "In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth..."
And God said, "Let there be light...and it was evening, and morning, the first day..."
Then the Sun, Moon and Stars shone on the Earth on the 4th day, and God said: "... Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years".
And many times God says that He was before Time exists before everlasting and so on. (Isaiah 57:15; psalms 90:2; 93:2; 102:27; 103:17)

So, lets see how the Bible describes "Time"!

• Before the first day, there was no light shining on the Earth.
• After the creation of light, the first day began, and Time started to count down to today.
• Before the first day, God created the Heavens and the earth.
• The period in which Goid created the Earth was from "In the Beginning" to before the "First day".

In otherwords.
God started to create in the beginning. The first matter and space for it to exist in, was the origins of the Universe. God continued to create the universes and the Earth was also part of this creation. However, the Earth was still taking shape from an accreted ball of Solids, Liquids and gases, because the Bible says, the Earth was without shape, and dark and full of water.
Then God said light should come in existance, and the first day kicked off. God then described how Time will be measured with the use of the Earth turning on its axis with the Sun shining on it, creating days.
The Bible also says the Earth and Sun will be the mecanism to count days. seasons, and years!

Now, lets see:
Time does not actually exist, and it is just by accident that the movement of the Earth and Sun plays the role of the clockwork of Time, and that we age and uses this clockwork to determine our age.

Therefore, Time is only a measurement on where the Earth and Sun is in relation to each other.
Before this "First day" existed, Time did not exist!
The Bible calls this time period before day one to the first cause, "In the Beginning", and I always say, if scientists wants to call this period "Billions of years", they are welcome to do so, it is not in contradiction with the Bible.
Actually the Biblical description is way better than the Scientific one.
The Bible say the Universe was created before the Earth in "Zero Time", or before the first day.
Science says, the Universe was created 12.5 Billion years ago, and the Solar System (Earth) only 4.5 billion years ago.

Ok, so if we use the Earth and Sun as clockwork to determine "Time", but the Earth and Sun was absent for 8 Billion years, how does the Scientists measure the time from the beginning to the creation of the earth?
easy, they use imaginary time!

Ok, so Time is a by product of movement of matter in space.
If we have Matter in space, and it remains stationary, down to quantum levels, with no photons moving, everything is a complete standstill, there will not be any "Time" to measure at all.

I think this will give perspective on a thought that God is somehow bound by Time, and He had a Beginning.
God is outside of creation, that is matter moving in space, therefore he does not abide in time at all.

What do you thinkl of my analysis?

Time is very difficult, if not impossible to define. Einstein proved it could be variable, and could essentially stop.

One cosmologist said time existed so everything doesn´t occur at once.

Another said that time was a space between events, if there were no events, then there was no time.

I agree totally that God is outside of time. Time is part of the universe, like all other laws of physics. Since all were created by God, He pre exists his own creation of time, thus it cannot apply to Him.

As one who believes the Big Bang theory is one of the greatest evidences of God, we must look at what science tells us about time within the framework of the theory. They postulate a large amount of time from the beginning of the rapid expansion to a universe, to a living earth.

However, as time is variable, and God controls it, the time element could be extremely short, after all, there were no physicists or cosmologists there to observe it.

Some BB ideas include a singularity, a first cause, which to them is unknown, to me, it was God.

I find much merit in your ideas !

I think your analysis has merit.

 

[shmogie]

You have to u

Personally I find the Biblical Genesis OK but not that specific and in spite the one-sided male creator.
In other religions there are both male and female deities participating in the creation.
You can for instants take the Norse Mythology and the Egyptian Ogdoad tellings. Both of these speaks of eternal creation and recreation.

God is neither male or female, He is referred to as male because at the time of His revelation to humans, a male dominated and controlled society existed.

The rebounding universe is very, very likely a scientific impossibility. Even including dark matter, there isn´t enough matter to create the gravity to pull the universe back together. Unless there is some other mechanism not known with the power to stop the continued faster and faster expansion of the universe, the end result will be a totally dead, totally fragmented universe, with no light, or heat.

So, the rebounding universe these belief systems postulate will not happen.

The universe appears to be a one off deal, as described in Genesis, and God will reshape it long before it dies.

 

[dybmh]

The notion (or concept) of "time" is, at least here on earth and among us earthlings, a human construct. [Check with Aliens in the other concurrent thread to see what they say about it.] "Time" is as imaginary as any other abstract noun. That you "feel" like Time is a fundamental component of reality similar to energy is your hurdle to jump. Try this (without any guarantee that doing so will shed light on the matter): Try to imagine an infinite Cosmos that has always existed and always will exist, like a laboratory without walls. Within the laboratory, the tiny, tiny thing we and mainstream physicists and the Bible call "the Universe", that we know and love, is undergoing construction. It's part of the Cosmos, but it's certainly not ALL of the Cosmos. It has a beginning and an end. The Cosmos, i.e. infinite, eternal laboratory has no beginning and end. Construction of universes within the Cosmos is going on in different places throughout the Cosmos: it always has and always will.

Thought provoking... thank you.

 

[Terry Sampson]

Einstein proved it could be variable, and could essentially stop.

Einstein proved jack-diddly. Anybody who has ever owned more than one clock, made by different manufacturers with differing quality controls, can "prove" that "relative time" (i.e. Time #2) is variable. I had two pocket watches once: one Swiss-made, the other a cheap $2.00 knock-off made in some Asian factory. The knock-off never kept pace/time with the Swiss; sometimes it ticked slower, and sometimes it ticked faster. Was that a mystery? Some woefully uninformed folks might think so. I didn't. A pair of perfectly identical, co-concurrent ticking clocks is a technological achievement.

Add to that the demonstrated fact that two clocks traveling at different speeds relative to a third reference point, do not tick concurrently is a 20th century discovery which continues to boggle a lot of folks' minds. Go figure.

 

[ChristineM]

• Before the first day, there was no light shining on the Earth.

• After the creation of light, the first day began, and Time started to count down to today.

• Before the first day, God created the Heavens and the earth.

• The period in which Goid created the Earth was from "In the Beginning" to before the "First day".

Light has nothing to do with time

 

[dybmh]

The notion (or concept) of "time" is, at least here on earth and among us earthlings, a human construct. [Check with Aliens in the other concurrent thread to see what they say about it.] "Time" is as imaginary as any other abstract noun. That you "feel" like Time is a fundamental component of reality similar to energy is your hurdle to jump. Try this (without any guarantee that doing so will shed light on the matter): Try to imagine an infinite Cosmos that has always existed and always will exist, like a laboratory without walls. Within the laboratory, the tiny, tiny thing we and mainstream physicists and the Bible call "the Universe", that we know and love, is undergoing construction. It's part of the Cosmos, but it's certainly not ALL of the Cosmos. It has a beginning and an end. The Cosmos, i.e. infinite, eternal laboratory has no beginning and end. Construction of universes within the Cosmos is going on in different places throughout the Cosmos: it always has and always will.

Do you agree that Time is not entirely imaginary? What about the Law of Entropy?

 

[dybmh]

Light has nothing to do with time

Please correct me if I'm wrong?

Light described as a wave...
Light described as a particle...
Light described as energy...

In each of the examples above, I think the equations include Time. Doesn't this indicate that Light and Time are somehow related? Even if it's not spiritual, it seems like there is some scientific basis that there is a relationship between Light and Time?

Edit: From a different perspective... can a photon stop?

 

[susanblange]

Time is circular. The beginning is also the end, the first and the last. It is also Alpha and Omega. One spin of the earth on its axis is one day, one rotation of the moon around the earth is one month, one orbit of the earth around the sun is one year. Time is eternal, it has a beginning but has no end. The numeric equivalent of time is infinity. You can always add another digit onto a number.

 

[Terry Sampson]

Do you agree that Time is not entirely imaginary? What about the Law of Entropy?

Clocks, be they the kind we humans measure time with or the infinite, eternal clock that I deem the Cosmos to be, are surely NOT imaginary.
re: the law of Entropy....

• Assuming that we agree on what entropy is, then (hopefully) we agree that the entropy of a system refers to the totality of microscopic configurations (i.e. microstates) in the whole system.
  • In a limited macrosystem, there are a fixed number of microstates.
  • In an unbounded, eternal Cosmos, i.e. macrosystem, how many microstates are possible?
    • Seems to me that there would be an infinite number of possible microstates, no?

 

[ChristineM]

Please correct me if I'm wrong?

Light described as a wave...
Light described as a particle...
Light described as energy...

In each of the examples above, I think the equations include Time. Doesn't this indicate that Light and Time are somehow related? Even if it's not spiritual, it seems like there is some scientific basis that there is a relationship between Light and Time?

Edit: From a different perspective... can a photon stop?

My bad, i should have written time has nothing to do with light.

Time does not function because of light, light is not needed to time to pass.

 

[Terry Sampson]

You can always add another digit onto a number.

Right, love, ... and you can always subtract another digit from a number, too.

 

[dybmh]

I think the explanation in my belief (I am an 'advaitist' Hindu - believer in non-duality) is the best. It says time is a mirage, an illusion, 'maya'.

Respectful question: If time is an illusion? What is actually happening when my hair grows, and people grow old?

 

[Etritonakin]

I noticed how fellow members discussed Time on one of the threads about if life is found on Mars, will we be able to handle it?.
What I found is that various claims are made about the attributes of "Time", and there is a lot of misunderstandings as well as solid facts explained by all.

I thought it will be a nice thread to create to have everyone scrutinizing, not only their opinions, but also mine.
Well, my understanding comes from the Biblical view, because I have learned quite a while ago that using knowledge from this point of view always turns out to be logical and conclusive.
So, Here Go!

Concerning Time, the Bible says: "In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth..."
And God said, "Let there be light...and it was evening, and morning, the first day..."
Then the Sun, Moon and Stars shone on the Earth on the 4th day, and God said: "... Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years".
And many times God says that He was before Time exists before everlasting and so on. (Isaiah 57:15; psalms 90:2; 93:2; 102:27; 103:17)

So, lets see how the Bible describes "Time"!

• Before the first day, there was no light shining on the Earth.
• After the creation of light, the first day began, and Time started to count down to today.
• Before the first day, God created the Heavens and the earth.
• The period in which Goid created the Earth was from "In the Beginning" to before the "First day".

In otherwords.
God started to create in the beginning. The first matter and space for it to exist in, was the origins of the Universe. God continued to create the universes and the Earth was also part of this creation. However, the Earth was still taking shape from an accreted ball of Solids, Liquids and gases, because the Bible says, the Earth was without shape, and dark and full of water.
Then God said light should come in existance, and the first day kicked off. God then described how Time will be measured with the use of the Earth turning on its axis with the Sun shining on it, creating days.
The Bible also says the Earth and Sun will be the mecanism to count days. seasons, and years!

Now, lets see:
Time does not actually exist, and it is just by accident that the movement of the Earth and Sun plays the role of the clockwork of Time, and that we age and uses this clockwork to determine our age.

Therefore, Time is only a measurement on where the Earth and Sun is in relation to each other.
Before this "First day" existed, Time did not exist!
The Bible calls this time period before day one to the first cause, "In the Beginning", and I always say, if scientists wants to call this period "Billions of years", they are welcome to do so, it is not in contradiction with the Bible.
Actually the Biblical description is way better than the Scientific one.
The Bible say the Universe was created before the Earth in "Zero Time", or before the first day.
Science says, the Universe was created 12.5 Billion years ago, and the Solar System (Earth) only 4.5 billion years ago.

Ok, so if we use the Earth and Sun as clockwork to determine "Time", but the Earth and Sun was absent for 8 Billion years, how does the Scientists measure the time from the beginning to the creation of the earth?
easy, they use imaginary time!

Ok, so Time is a by product of movement of matter in space.
If we have Matter in space, and it remains stationary, down to quantum levels, with no photons moving, everything is a complete standstill, there will not be any "Time" to measure at all.

I think this will give perspective on a thought that God is somehow bound by Time, and He had a Beginning.
God is outside of creation, that is matter moving in space, therefore he does not abide in time at all.

What do you thinkl of my analysis?

Before THAT first day, time did exist.
Notice that when the spirit of God (the Word who became Christ employing it) moved upon the face of the waters, the waters were already there.
The Earth HAD BECOME (look up the word translated "was") waste and ruin at an unspecified time AFTER its initial completion.
What followed was a renewing in preparation for man -after the angels under Satan "kept not their former estate" -which was Earth.
Similarly, it was not the initial creation of other celestial bodies, but renewing, ordering, juxtaposing, etc.

"IN THE BEGINNING" is a very vague phrase -and does not necessarily refer to the VERY beginning.
It pretty much means back then -before this -and the subject being discussed should be considered.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God....
In the beginning, O Lord, You laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands....
But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’...

Time is a measure of interrelationship -but of that which has "always" existed.
Time moves "forward" inasmuch as one configuration follows the previous.

God does not say he HAD a beginning -but that he WAS the beginning.
Not much is discussed about what he was doing before deciding to create the physical universe -but as long as there was/he was of some dynamic configuration, there was "time".
Some say that time began with the big bang -as the singularity expanded, but that essentially assumes the universe is the sum total of all things -and that there was no external reference, no history leading up to the singularity/big bang... but it would be more correct to say that universe time began at that point.
If "I AM THAT AM" is literally the sum of all that exists, then "time" would describe the various states of "God" -and the universe would essentially be made of some portion of "God" -as would ourselves.

A developing God composed of that which has always existed could still be accurately described as "eternal".
Otherwise, are we to think that a complex and capable God did absolutely nothing in the forever before the big bang -then suddenly created instantaneously?
If God created the universe, there would have been a point where the idea was conceived, brainstormed, planned, executed, etc. -so there would have been activity before it -and onward -just as the creation of the Earth is described here...

"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy"

It would not actually be against scripture if there was a "time" before God knew himself! God would always have been God even if God developed to the point of self-awareness, complete self-understanding, creativity, self-replication, etc....

 

[Aupmanyav]

Edit: From a different perspective... can a photon stop?

Does a photon move? Or it is transference of energy?

Respectful question: If time is an illusion? What is actually happening when my hair grows, and people grow old?

Equally respectfully, Illusion, 'maya'.

"nāsato vidyate bhāvo, nābhāvo vidyate sataḥ;
ubhayor api dṛṣṭah antah, tu anayoh tattva-darśibhiḥ" BhagawadGita 2.16

(Of the nonexistent there is no endurance, and of the eternal there is no change. Those who are seers of the truth have verily concluded this by studying the nature of both.)

 

[dybmh]

My bad, i should have written time has nothing to do with light.

Time does not function because of light, light is not needed to time to pass.

Agreed.

Is it a stretch to say: Light depends on Time? Without Time, Light as we know it ( emitted photons/waves/energy ) would not exist?