Tired of the "why did God allow ……." posts.

[Simplelogic]

I have seen numerous posts lately which claim that God is responsible for evil and suffering on earth. I understand this kind of logic and believe much of typical Christian doctrine actually supports this sad way of thinking. To many people God is a being who is omniscient and timeless. He is also seen as someone who micromanages free will and even ordains evil actions! Most believe that this (ordained evil) is justified because its all part of a intricate plan which will eventually lead men back to God. Sigh...

I am not a Christian, nor do I fall under normative Judaism. However I am willing to debate the following items concerning the Hebrew scriptures. My positions are as follows:

1. God is not outside of time
2. God is not omnipresent nor omniscient but can be in multiple places at once.
3. God did not make or create evil
4. God does not claim to predestine mans fate
5. God does not know what we are going to do (specifically)

I would be happy to debate any of these statements with any and all who wish to debate them. I am even willing to state publicly that if it can be proven, from the Hebrew scriptures, that God is outside of time and predestining the will of man then I will formally and publicly renounce the God of Israel who's name is Yehovah.

Note: As many already know, I don't regard Paul's letters as scripture. I recognize that Paul did believe in a predestining God who is outside of time. My argument will be made with the Tanakh (Hebrew scriptures) as well as any NT writing which was not written or influenced by Paul.

 

[Faybull]

I would argue, regarding number 3, there is no evil. There is adversity, or an opposition to any thing, but not "evil", as it became romanticised. And this is also shown to be according to the book.

 

[Simplelogic]

I would argue, regarding number 3, there is no evil. There is adversity, or an opposition to any thing, but not "evil", as it became romanticised. And this is also shown to be according to the book.

Would you categorize infant rape as adversity?

 

[Faybull]

you ever hear that song called "please dont talk about murder while I am eating"?

i mean seriously? adverse to life? yes, i mean a child cannot conceive so it seems rather adverse

 

[Faybull]

perhaps not outside of time, bit in the same respect, regardless of time
ignorance is bliss
lol

 

[Simplelogic]

you ever hear that song called "please dont talk about murder while I am eating"?

i mean seriously? adverse to life? yes, i mean a child cannot conceive so it seems rather adverse

Not trying to spoil your meal. I have lived in places where this is an every day practice. You sure the word "evil" doesn't more accurately fit?

 

[Faybull]

evil doesn't exist as it is so called "ordained", or as a preconceived notion. it is better put, to be adversity, to say that evil is ordained, or even preordained, evil has to be in the beginning, our as outside of time, eternal

 

[Skwim]

I have seen numerous posts lately which claim that God is responsible for evil and suffering on earth. I understand this kind of logic and believe much of typical Christian doctrine actually supports this sad way of thinking. To many people God is a being who is omniscient and timeless. He is also seen as someone who micromanages free will and even ordains evil actions! Most believe that this (ordained evil) is justified because its all part of a intricate plan which will eventually lead men back to God. Sigh...

I am not a Christian, nor do I fall under normative Judaism. However I am willing to debate the following items concerning the Hebrew scriptures. My positions are as follows:

1. God is not outside of time
2. God can be omnipresent but is not omniscient
3. God did not make or create evil
4. God does not claim to predestine mans fate
5. God does not know what we are going to do (specifically)

I would be happy to debate any of these statements with any and all who wish to debate them. I am even willing to state publicly that if it can be proven, from the Hebrew scriptures, that God is outside of time and predestining the will of man then I will formally and publicly renounce the God of Israel who's name is Yehovah.

Note: As many already know, I don't regard Paul's letters as scripture. I recognize that Paul did believe in a predestining God who is outside of time. My argument will be made with the Tanakh (Hebrew scriptures) as well as any NT writing which was not written or influenced by Paul.

Proven to whose satisfaction, yours or mine? . . . . . . . . . . . Yeah, that's what I thought.

3. God did not make or create evil

Isaiah 45:7 Tanakh

ז יוֹצֵר אוֹר וּבוֹרֵא חֹשֶׁךְ, עֹשֶׂה שָׁלוֹם וּבוֹרֵא רָע; אֲנִי יְהוָה, עֹשֶׂה כָל-אֵלֶּה. {פ} 7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things.
source


Who formיֵs light and creates darkness, Who makes peace and creates evil; I am the Lord, Who makes all these.ז. יוֹצֵר אוֹר וּבוֹרֵא חֹשֶׁךְ עֹשֶׂה שָׁלוֹם וּבוֹרֵא רָע אֲנִי יְהֹוָה עֹשֶׂה כָל אֵלֶּה
source


7. Who forms light and creates darkness, Who makes peace and creates evil; I am the Lord, Who makes all these. ז. יוֹצֵר אוֹר וּבוֹרֵא חֹשֶׁךְ עֹשֶׂה שָׁלוֹם וּבוֹרֵא רָע אֲנִי יְהֹוָה עֹשֶׂה כָל אֵלֶּה:
source​

 

[Simplelogic]

evil doesn't exist as it is so called "ordained", or as a preconceived notion. it is better put, to be adversity, to say that evil is ordained, or even preordained, evil has to be in the beginning, our as outside of time, eternal

???? I never said anything about evil being ordained. Evil is a capacity which humans have based off of independent choice. Just because evil is not "ordained" does not mean something can't be evil or vile or sinister or demented.

 

[Faybull]

evil doesn't exist as it is so called "ordained", or as a preconceived notion. it is better put, to be adversity, to say that evil is ordained, or even preordained, evil has to be in the beginning, our as outside of time, eternal

Proven to whose satisfaction, yours or mine? . . . . . . . . . . . Yeah, that's what I thought.

3. God did not make or create evil

Isaiah 45:7 Tanakh

ז יוֹצֵר אוֹר וּבוֹרֵא חֹשֶׁךְ, עֹשֶׂה שָׁלוֹם וּבוֹרֵא רָע; אֲנִי יְהוָה, עֹשֶׂה כָל-אֵלֶּה. {פ} 7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things.
source


Who formיֵs light and creates darkness, Who makes peace and creates evil; I am the Lord, Who makes all these.ז. יוֹצֵר אוֹר וּבוֹרֵא חֹשֶׁךְ עֹשֶׂה שָׁלוֹם וּבוֹרֵא רָע אֲנִי יְהֹוָה עֹשֶׂה כָל אֵלֶּה
source


7. Who forms light and creates darkness, Who makes peace and creates evil; I am the Lord, Who makes all these. ז. יוֹצֵר אוֹר וּבוֹרֵא חֹשֶׁךְ עֹשֶׂה שָׁלוֹם וּבוֹרֵא רָע אֲנִי יְהֹוָה עֹשֶׂה כָל אֵלֶּה:
source​

the darkness isnt created also, the darkness is given because of the light, same with the evil, it is because of the peace, because I am good, there is adversity, because I am light, there is darkness, When I became the light, darkness became, noone knew there was light, until there was light...I think this is the form of the verse

 

[Faybull]

the darkness isnt created also, the darkness is given because of the light, same with the evil, it is because of the peace, because I am good, there is adversity, because I am light, there is darkness, When I became the light, darkness became, noone knew there was light, until there was light...I think this is the form of the verse

so that it isnt that god creates both of them, but by creating this, there is consequence.
so like action , reaction form

 

[Simplelogic]

Proven to whose satisfaction, yours or mine? . . . . . . . . . . . Yeah, that's what I thought.

3. God did not make or create evil

Isaiah 45:7 Tanakh

ז יוֹצֵר אוֹר וּבוֹרֵא חֹשֶׁךְ, עֹשֶׂה שָׁלוֹם וּבוֹרֵא רָע; אֲנִי יְהוָה, עֹשֶׂה כָל-אֵלֶּה. {פ} 7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things.
source


Who formיֵs light and creates darkness, Who makes peace and creates evil; I am the Lord, Who makes all these.ז. יוֹצֵר אוֹר וּבוֹרֵא חֹשֶׁךְ עֹשֶׂה שָׁלוֹם וּבוֹרֵא רָע אֲנִי יְהֹוָה עֹשֶׂה כָל אֵלֶּה
source


7. Who forms light and creates darkness, Who makes peace and creates evil; I am the Lord, Who makes all these. ז. יוֹצֵר אוֹר וּבוֹרֵא חֹשֶׁךְ עֹשֶׂה שָׁלוֹם וּבוֹרֵא רָע אֲנִי יְהֹוָה עֹשֶׂה כָל אֵלֶּה:
source​

Hey!! My first taker.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

These words certainly seem to paint a gut-wrenching picture of God actually admitting to being responsible for creating evil. No thought could be further from the truth or more blasphemous. What God is speaking of is obviously the opposite of "peace", in the same way He contrasted "light" and "darkness". This peace means tranquility of life, and the word translated "evil" more literally means "calamity". Some translations, including the NKJV, actually use the word "calamity" in this verse instead of "evil". This calamity is the picture of God's judgment on man for his sinful deeds. Many examples of this type of picture could be cited. The great flood was a major calamity and judgment on man. There was judgment in the form of calamity on Sodom and Gomorrah, Pharaoh in Egypt, Israel in the wilderness, and so on. Many times this judgment is called "evil". Here are a couple of examples where the same Hebrew word is used.

And the Lord repented of the evil ("harm" NKJV)which he thought to do unto his people. Exodus 32:14 KJV

"Thus says the Lord: 'Stand in the court of the Lord's house, and speak to all the cities of Judah, which come to worship in the Lord's house, all the words that I command you to speak to them. Do not diminish a word. Perhaps (What? God didn't know for sure?!) everyone will listen and turn from his evil way, that I may relent concerning the evil ("calamity" NKJV) which I purpose to bring on them because of the evil of their doings." Jeremiah 26:2-3

Note: By using the word "perhaps", it should be apparent that God wasn't even sure if the people would repent! So much for Calvinism's concept of an all-knowing God.

Therefore thus says the Lord God of hosts, the God of Israel: 'Behold, I will bring on Judah and on all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the evil ("doom" NKJV) that I have pronounced against them; because I have spoken to them but they have not heard, and I have called to them but they have not answered.'" Jeremiah 35:17

These are examples of the same "evil" God was speaking of in Isaiah 45:7. God most certainly did not bring evil into existence as though it would not exist had He not created it.

 

[Faybull]

???? I never said anything about evil being ordained. Evil is a capacity which humans have based off of independent choice. Just because evil is not "ordained" does not mean something can't be evil or vile or sinister or demented.

well, it is the same way the dead dont speak. like the entirety if the Saul experience consulting the dead....there is dead to consult, that is why it was forbidden, it is a deception, it deceives. same way there is no evil, just adversity...otherwise evil exists, because god exists

 

[Simplelogic]

well, it is the same way the dead dont speak. like the entirety if the Saul experience consulting the dead....there is dead to consult, that is why it was forbidden, it is a deception, it deceives. same way there is no evil, just adversity...otherwise evil exists, because god exists

not seeing it. I think we are splitting hairs here a little bit.

 

[Faybull]

evil: foolish
Original Word: אֱוִיל
Part of Speech: Adjective Masculine
Transliteration: evil
Phonetic Spelling: (ev-eel')
Short Definition: fool


is that evil?

 

[Faybull]

like hosea 9:7 evil?

 

[Ingledsva]

I have seen numerous posts lately which claim that God is responsible for evil and suffering on earth. I understand this kind of logic and believe much of typical Christian doctrine actually supports this sad way of thinking. To many people God is a being who is omniscient and timeless. He is also seen as someone who micromanages free will and even ordains evil actions! Most believe that this (ordained evil) is justified because its all part of a intricate plan which will eventually lead men back to God. Sigh...

I am not a Christian, nor do I fall under normative Judaism. However I am willing to debate the following items concerning the Hebrew scriptures. My positions are as follows:

1. God is not outside of time
2. God can be omnipresent but is not omniscient
3. God did not make or create evil
4. God does not claim to predestine mans fate
5. God does not know what we are going to do (specifically)

I would be happy to debate any of these statements with any and all who wish to debate them. I am even willing to state publicly that if it can be proven, from the Hebrew scriptures, that God is outside of time and predestining the will of man then I will formally and publicly renounce the God of Israel who's name is Yehovah.

Note: As many already know, I don't regard Paul's letters as scripture. I recognize that Paul did believe in a predestining God who is outside of time. My argument will be made with the Tanakh (Hebrew scriptures) as well as any NT writing which was not written or influenced by Paul.

So what is your take on the Adam and Chav'vah story? Or the generations following them with evil, or the supposed killing of everyone because of sin, - except Noah's family, - that started sinning as soon as they reached land, etc?

*

 

[Skwim]

Hey!! My first taker.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

These words certainly seem to paint a gut-wrenching picture of God actually admitting to being responsible for creating evil. No thought could be further from the truth or more blasphemous. What God is speaking of is obviously the opposite of "peace", in the same way He contrasted "light" and "darkness".

Which begs the question, If god was trying to convey his true sentiments why didn't he say what he meant? Of course, if one concedes that god, like any good communicator, does say what he means, the "evil" has to stand as recorded.

This peace means tranquility of life, and the word translated "evil" more literally means "calamity". Some translations, including the NKJV, actually use the word "calamity" in this verse instead of "evil".

What??? your resorting to heathen translations to prove your point!!!! Okay, but the fact is "evil" is used in more versions of the Bible (47% in fact) than any other term.

. God most certainly did not bring evil into existence as though it would not exist had He not created it.

So why do you think he was compelled to create it? Usually we create new things because they don;t exist and they won't exist when we need them, OR we create them just to please ourselves. So, obviously god did create evil because it didn't exist and wouldn't exist in time to suit his needs, OR it simply pleased him. The universe, super novas, planets, and humans were all on the drawing board and part of the grand design was to included, among other things,

1. light,
2. darkness
3. peace
4. and

​

 

[Simplelogic]

So what is your take on the Adam and Chav'vah story? Or the generations following them with evil, or the supposed killing of everyone because of sin, - except Noah's family, - that started sinning as soon as they reached land, etc?

I believe Adam and Chav'vah sinned against God. I don't believe God ordained them to sin or even willed it. I believe He wanted them to "be fruitful and multiply" and fill the earth with good humans.

Regarding the flood- God attempted to destroyed the human race which had mixed with fallen angels and had become truly "evil". Though this act greatly diminished the Nephilim it did not destroy them. Ham chose to sin against Noah and became a cursed race.

 

[Simplelogic]

Which begs the question, If god was trying to convey his true sentiments why didn't he say what he meant? Of course, if one concedes that god, like any good communicator, does say what he means, the "evil" has to stand as recorded.

I never said God didn't say what He meant. The context clearly dictates the word calamity as in many other cases in the Tanakh.