Tired of the "why did God allow ……." posts.

[Ingledsva]

The knowledge of Evil is talking about practicing evil. This may come as a shock but God does not judge our thoughts, or read them. Our thoughts are where temptation and desire originate but YHVH judges us based off of our actions and our words….thats it! Evil temptation and desire was already there in the garden. Yet they didn't have the "knowledge" of evil until they practiced it with their actions.

NO! the word KNOWLEDGE here, has a definite meaning, and it isn't practicing, - or they would have used a word that can be translated as such.

 

[Simplelogic]

Some will teach that all of Adam's future offspring shared in Adam's initial act because, as their family head, he represented them, making them in effect participants. This concept of original sin is not what the Bible talks about.

"That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned-." - Romans 5:12

Note that this verse speaks of death 'spreading' to all men? This implies a progressive effect, not a simultaneous one.

Ezekiel 18:2,3 and Jeremiah 31:29,30 clearly teach that the house of Judah would be paying for their own sins, rather than the sins of their fathers, (as they wanted to believe). There is, however, a difference between them and their forebearers and what happened between Adam and ourselves. I do not pay for the sins of my human father. I have though caught an infection from my human father, that he caught, and so forth all the way back from Adam. That infection is going to eventually be fatal, unless Armageddon, and the physical application of the ransom that comes after, comes first.

That infection carries with it a weakness - a propensity to miss Jehovah's mark for human perfection.

I agree with most of this but what on earth are you talking about when it comes to Ezekiel 18? Do you really think that God has a complete different way of doing things for Jews? Looks like we need to do a whole other thread on "the covenant" and who it is made with. Gentiles have always been allowed into YHVH's covenant. God does not have two different modes of operating with humanity imho.

"The same law shall apply to the native as to the stranger who sojourns among you." Exo 12:49

 

[Simplelogic]

LOL! Dude! You proved me right with your first paragraph!

I did not say anything so-called feminist. You brought it up - when you misunderstood what I was talking about with slavery = God letting his people go into slavery when angry, - and not as you put it,- woman's slavery to men.

When told you misunderstood, - you continue with the errant CRAP - above!

Grow up!

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You have your own agenda which you consistently laminate on to the text to attempt to prove your conspiratorial man-hating concepts. Men are meant to be fully in charge of women. Any women rejecting this is under a curse. Men are meant to love and protect their women with their lives.

 

[Simplelogic]

NO! the word KNOWLEDGE here, has a definite meaning, and it isn't practicing, - or they would have used a word that can be translated as such.

The story is simple to understand. So much that even a child can grasp the fact that Adam and Eve's actions were clear rebellion to the former instructions of YHVH. You can continue with your man hating, God hating logic which assumes God is evil and then works backwards from there.

 

[Kolibri]

I agree with most of this but what on earth are you talking about when it comes to Ezekiel 18? Do you really think that God has a complete different way of doing things for Jews? Looks like we need to do a whole other thread on "the covenant" and who it is made with. Gentiles have always been allowed into YHVH's covenant. God does not have two different modes of operating with humanity imho.

"The same law shall apply to the native as to the stranger who sojourns among you." Exo 12:49

Ezekiel 18 was quite clear, as you stated. Jehovah does not punish us for the other peoples sins. Hopefully it is mere discipline. But regardless, if my dad committed adultery, I might have grew up without a father as my mother probably would not have continued to live with him. In that way, I do pay for the sin of my father. But it isn't not a disciplinary act or a punishment from Jehovah.

Ezekiel was talking directly to the Jews, but it encompassed all mankind in verse 4. "Look! All the souls (or "lives.") - to me they belong."

Likewise inheriting sin from Adam is not treated as a guilt, but an infection that prevents us from staying guiltless. It isn't that we are blamed for Adam's sin, but that we are born with a condition prevents us from living w/o accumulating error.

 

[Ingledsva]

... This is NOT one of those cases imho. There is a clear subject change from the King of Tyre to a completely different being. The king of Tyre's actions and spirit are being contrasted with the covering Cherub who was "in the garden". I have heard numerous Jewish commentaries on this passage and none logically adequate for my liking.

If this was ONLY about the king of Tyre then:

-Why claim that the king of Tyre was in eden? (even in a poetic sense?)
-Why label him as a "covering Cherub"?
-Why claim that he was once "blameless"? Was the king of Tyre ever remotely close to being blameless in God's eyes?

No they aren't. Such are misreading's of the Jewish texts. They are NOT talking about a Satan character. They are using poetic language and known colloquialisms. This is an event written about in several books. He is a human King, and they make that very plain. Christians try to add on that - it IS ALSO - referencing our evil Satan idea. Baloney!

Read about this King of the coastal, and island kingdom of Tyre - (Isaiah 23:1–18; Jeremiah 25:22; (in fact all of 25), 27:1–11; Ezekiel 26:1– 28:19;

Note that these are all the same event! A war! Note the 70.

Isa 23:1 The burden of Tyre. Howl, ye ships of Tarshish; for it is laid waste, so that there is no house, no entering in: from the land of Chittim it is revealed to them.

Isa 23:2 Be still, ye inhabitants of the isle; thou whom the merchants of Zidon, that pass over the sea, have replenished.

Isa 23:3 And by great waters the seed of Sihor, the harvest of the river, is her revenue; and she is a mart of nations.

Isa 23:4 Be thou ashamed, O Zidon: for the sea hath spoken, even the strength of the sea, saying, I travail not, nor bring forth children, neither do I nourish up young men, nor bring up virgins.

Isa 23:5 As at the report concerning Egypt, so shall they be sorely pained at the report of Tyre.

Isa 23:6 Pass ye over to Tarshish; howl, ye inhabitants of the isle.

Isa 23:7 Is this your joyous city, whose antiquity is of ancient days? her own feet shall carry her afar off to sojourn.

Isa 23:8 Who hath taken this counsel against Tyre, the crowning city, whose merchants are princes, whose traffickers are the honourable of the earth?

Isa 23:9 The LORD of hosts hath purposed it, to stain the pride of all glory, and to bring into contempt all the honourable of the earth.
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Jer 25:11 And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.

Jer 25:12 And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations.

Jer 25:22 And all the kings of Tyrus, and all the kings of Zidon, and the kings of the isles which are beyond the sea,

Jer 25:27 Therefore thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Drink ye, and be drunken, and spue, and fall, and rise no more, because of the sword which I will send among you.
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Jer 27:2 Thus saith the LORD to me; Make thee bonds and yokes, and put them upon thy neck,

Jer 27:3 And send them to the king of Edom, and to the king of Moab, and to the king of the Ammonites, and to the king of Tyrus, and to the king of Zidon, by the hand of the messengers which come to Jerusalem unto Zedekiah king of Judah;
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Eze 26:1 And it came to pass in the eleventh year, in the first day of the month, that the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

Eze 26:2 Son of man, because that Tyrus hath said against Jerusalem, Aha, she is broken that was the gates of the people: she is turned unto me: I shall be replenished, now she is laid waste:

Eze 26:3 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Tyrus, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth his waves to come up.

Eze 26:4 And they shall destroy the walls of Tyrus, and break down her towers: I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock.
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Eze 27:1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

Eze 27:2 Now, thou son of man, take up a lamentation for Tyrus;

Eze 27:3 And say unto Tyrus, O thou that art situate at the entry of the sea, which art a merchant of the people for many isles, Thus saith the Lord GOD; O Tyrus, thou hast said, I am of perfect beauty.

Eze 27:4 Thy borders are in the midst of the seas, thy builders have perfected thy beauty.

Eze 27:5 They have made all thy ship boards of fir trees of Senir: they have taken cedars from Lebanon to make masts for thee.

Eze 27:6Of the oaks of Bashan have they made thine oars; the company of the Ashurites have made thy benches of ivory, brought out of the isles of Chittim.

Eze 27:7 Fine linen with broidered work from Egypt was that which thou spreadest forth to be thy sail; blue and purple from the isles of Elishah was that which covered thee.

Eze 27:8 The inhabitants of Zidon and Arvad were thy mariners: thy wise men, O Tyrus, that were in thee, were thy pilots.
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Eze 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

Eze 28:3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:

Eze 28:4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:

Eze 28:5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:

Eze 28:6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;

Eze 28:7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.

Eze 28:8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.

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[Kolibri]

There was at time when the Kings of Tyre were relatively blameless and perfect, when they supported David and Solomon.
There are arguments for and against this also being a description of Satan. Best we can say is 'maybe.'
If it was true than that would explain how Satan would have had something to look at all the time to feed the desire to have his own worshipers.
It's just we can't be dogmatic, as even this line of kings was perfectly supplying needed materials for Solomon's temple for Jehovah, and being neighbors Israel could not fault.

 

[Ingledsva]

The story is simple to understand. So much that even a child can grasp the fact that Adam and Eve's actions were clear rebellion to the former instructions of YHVH. You can continue with your man hating, God hating logic which assumes God is evil and then works backwards from there.

Continuing on with the RED-HERRING man hating - I see! LOL!

The ability to think and contemplate the Serpent's story, along with YHVH's, in no way implies they knew what evil was, - it is merely weighing two stories, - AND AGAIN - the story says they haven't eaten of that tree yet - so they don't know what EVIL is.

If they don't know what evil is - then they didn't commit an evil act, they merely chose between two stories. Guess YHVH should have given that knowledge ahead of time - hey?


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[Ingledsva]

There was at time when the Kings of Tyre were relatively blameless and perfect, when they supported David and Solomon.
There are arguments for and against this also being a description of Satan. Best we can say is 'maybe.'
If it was true than that would explain how Satan would have had something to look at all the time to feed the desire to have his own worshipers.
It's just we can't be dogmatic, as even this line of kings was perfectly supplying needed materials for Solomon's temple for Jehovah, and being neighbors Israel could not fault.

NOPE! We know this is about a war, that 70 years, and a real King.

The Satan crap is added on by another religion - Christianity!

And as usual they are wrong, about these HEBREW texts.

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[Simplelogic]

There was at time when the Kings of Tyre were relatively blameless and perfect, when they supported David and Solomon.
There are arguments for and against this also being a description of Satan. Best we can say is 'maybe.'
If it was true than that would explain how Satan would have had something to look at all the time to feed the desire to have his own worshipers.
It's just we can't be dogmatic, as even this line of kings was perfectly supplying needed materials for Solomon's temple for Jehovah, and being neighbors Israel could not fault.

Agreed. That's why I believe it is being dualistic.

 

[Ingledsva]

You have your own agenda which you consistently laminate on to the text to attempt to prove your conspiratorial man-hating concepts. Men are meant to be fully in charge of women. Any women rejecting this is under a curse. Men are meant to love and protect their women with their lives.

LOLOLOLOLO!!!!! I'm man hating for pointing out actual patriarchy in the Bible,-

And I'll bet you don't consider yourself a patriarchal misogynist, - which your words show you to actually be?

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[Ingledsva]

The story is simple to understand. So much that even a child can grasp the fact that Adam and Eve's actions were clear rebellion to the former instructions of YHVH. You can continue with your man hating, God hating logic which assumes God is evil and then works backwards from there.

There is no rebellion.

They did not have the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil, -

thus they just heard two different stories, and liked the Serpent's.

There is NO evil intent - if they don't know what evil is.

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[muhammad_isa]

She can't be charged with an evil act, if God has withheld the KNOWLEDGE of evil, which is what the story tells us.

I'm afraid that "ignorance of the law" is not a valid defence .. in any case, she was fully aware that she was disobeying her parent/guardian ie. Almighty God

 

[Ingledsva]

I'm afraid that "ignorance of the law" is not a valid defence .. in any case, she was fully aware that she was disobeying her parent/guardian ie. Almighty God

Well, the men writing the story should have though it out a little better, shouldn't they have?

Because it makes NO sense that they can be charged with evil, if God had not shared such knowledge with them!

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[Sleeppy]

I'm afraid that "ignorance of the law" is not a valid defence ..

Actually it is. Think about it a while.

 

[tkdrocks]

I'm afraid that "ignorance of the law" is not a valid defence .. in any case, she was fully aware that she was disobeying her parent/guardian ie. Almighty God

Yes, how dare she defy the Almighty God with a fruit rebellion. Surely, she had already witnessed His temper tantrums before. They seem to be rather habitual. You at that fruit, get out of my garden. I screwed up when I created men, I think I will drown all but one family and make them repopulate the earth incestually ... again.

Come on, do you really take these stories literally? Adherance to these bronze age fables is at the root of fundamentalist extremism.

 

[Kolibri]

Adam and Eve—Were They Real People? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

 

[tkdrocks]

Adam and Eve—Were They Real People? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

Hey look! They use the Bible to validate the Bible. How quaint.

Quoting from your reference:

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Life—Meaningful or Futile?

Finally, we come to this fundamental question: Does the rejection of the Genesis account satisfy the human need for meaning and purpose in life? In the view of Richard Dawkins, a leading evolutionist and atheist, the universe has “no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.” What an utterly bleak outlook, totally contrary to human nature!
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I completely disagree: It is the best possible outlook. We are not bound by some celestial dictator that watches us at all times, taking note of what we eat, who we sleep with and always seems to need our money. I do not need a designer to appreciate beauty and enjoy life. In fact, I enjoy life MUCH more now than I ever did as a Christian. Once I freed myself of the mythology, I was able to explore the world free of superstition and prejudice.

Maybe you should read some material outside of the Watch Tower, occasionally. It is healthy to get a broader perspective.

 

[Ingledsva]

Adam and Eve—Were They Real People? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

Sorry, but that is a ridiculous attempt at proving Adam and Chav'vah were real.

Let us take the basic - time, - 6000 to 7000 years, is not enough time for all the diversity of humans worldwide, to have evolved.

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[Kolibri]

I was out of time. but the question becomes, If we accept the Bible as valid. (and not all do), at what point can we point to the genealogies and say "right there (pointing), that is were fact becomes fiction."?