To Be or Not To Be: your gender (Vivek R.)

[Argentbear]

Allowed to have is not the same as can have. I think the only meaningful difference between men and women is that women can become pregnant and men can impregnate, if no disease or health problem.

and what is allowed is determined by individual societies

 

[stvdv]

What a horrible thing to say

At least he acknowledged she is not a boy

More important would be that Musk acknowledges that he caused his son to become depressed. A child becomes depressed for a reason, and usually it's caused by bad parenting at very young age; I know from personal experience and having seen many other victims, so far all clearly bad parenting

Bad parenting is for the parents, esp. of older generation, very hard to admit, and even harder to say sorry for them, keeping the vicious circle going on

 

[IndigoChild5559]

If i understand correctly, the gender is then basically matter of mind, what a person thinks. This leads me to question, if a man thinks he is a woman, how would he know what it means? How would he define a woman?

We had a boy in my extended family who longed to be a girl. He would wear his sister's dresses around the house, play with dolls, yada yada. The family was very chill about this. When he got older and more articulate, he expressed that he felt trapped inside the wrong body.

I think people do develop a sense of what a girl is and what a boy is from the time they are very young. Society begins treating girls and boys different from the moment they come out of the womb. The ideas of what it means to be a man or a woman are complex, and are enculturated over the course of a child's life. But that complexity in no way means that people don't have a general understanding.

For whatever it's worth, when my relative was approaching 30, he came out and said he was now quite fine being male, and that he was very relieved that nothing had been done to alter his body. This fact highly informs my opinions on this topic. It is why I think we need to be far more cautious with the medical treatments we give children who express gender confusion or discomfort.

And how is the condition different from someone telling today that he is the Napoleon and French people should obey him?

Because gender dysphoria is not a psychosis. It is not an imagined identity. It has its roots in the actual biology of the brain. A person's self identification as a particular gender is analogous to handedness, not schizophrenia.

 

[Argentbear]

At least he acknowledged she is not a boy

I was talking about what you said

 

[stvdv]

I was talking about what you said

I said nothing, I repeated "Musk's feelings"

AS

I truly respect other people their feeling
I take people serious if they share their feelings

Even/also Elon Musk his feelings ... don't you?
As well as his son, now daughter's feelings

Still, Elon Musk need to apologize to his daughter for disrespecting her feelings, which he, if being truly narcissistic, will never do
Hence in my opinion the father is to blame for everything bad happening, never the daughter

 

[Valjean]

Thank you for the explanation.

If i understand correctly, the gender is then basically matter of mind, what a person thinks. This leads me to question, if a man thinks he is a woman, how would he know what it means? How would he define a woman?

Mind maybe, thinking no. Thinking is critical analysis of objective data. "Gender," as it's now being used in psychology or sociology, is a social or sexual orientation, more a feeling or attitude.
People decide for themselves how they define "woman," or what being a woman means.

And how is the condition different from someone telling today that he is the Napoleon and French people should obey him?

This sounds like a delusion; a fixed belief unaffected by contrary facts.
Napoleon was a specific person, who is dead. One believing without evidence that he is that person is making a specific claim contrary to well evidenced fact.
A claim of "being a woman" is not so clear. Assessment would rest on how the claimant was defining woman. The dispute would rest on definitions, not on established fact.
A transsexual is reporting a personal, feeling-based orientation, and inasmuch as one's feelings are known only to him, the claim isn't open to dispute. On the other hand, the cause, and the claimant's definitions, are.

 

[1213]

Mind maybe, thinking no. Thinking is critical analysis of objective data. "Gender," as it's now being used in psychology or sociology, is a social or sexual orientation, more a feeling or attitude.
People decide for themselves how they define "woman," or what being a woman means.

Ok, so, if there is two persons who defines it differently, who is right?

 

[1213]

We had a boy in my extended family who longed to be a girl. He would wear his sister's dresses around the house, play with dolls, yada yada. The family was very chill about this. When he got older and more articulate, he expressed that he felt trapped inside the wrong body.

I think people do develop a sense of what a girl is and what a boy is from the time they are very young. Society begins treating girls and boys different from the moment they come out of the womb. The ideas of what it means to be a man or a woman are complex, and are enculturated over the course of a child's life. But that complexity in no way means that people don't have a general understanding.

I think it would be best to keep things simple. If a boy plays with dolls, or has a dress, it doesn't make him a girl, he would only be a boy with a doll and dress.

For whatever it's worth, when my relative was approaching 30, he came out and said he was now quite fine being male, and that he was very relieved that nothing had been done to alter his body. This fact highly informs my opinions on this topic. It is why I think we need to be far more cautious with the medical treatments we give children who express gender confusion or discomfort.

I agree with that, I think people should be very cautious with this issue in case of children. First of all, they can easily be manipulated to have harmful beliefs and also wanting to have something that other gender/sex has, doesn't necessary mean the person is then really wanting to be opposite sex/gender.

Because gender dysphoria is not a psychosis. It is not an imagined identity. It has its roots in the actual biology of the brain.

I don't believe the differences in the brain are the cause, more likely it is the result of what the person wants to think.

 

[1213]

if a woman thinks she is a woman how would she know what it means? How would she define a woman?

Yes, I think that is the crucial question. Woman has a female body, so she can know what it means. Men doesn't have a female body, so he can't really know what it means.

Trans people also identify themselves as trans not as a man or a woman.

I think that is better than a man saying he is a woman, or a woman saying he is a man.

 

[soulsurvivor]

Vivek Ramaswamy on Gender dysphoria:
1) It's a mental health condition (esp. in kids)
2) There are only 2 genders

Because these 2 claims contradict:
* Sex you're attracted to is hardwired at birth, a core premise of the gay rights movement.
* Your own biological sex is totally fluid over your life

What do you think?

I am curious how other people think about this.

Vivek Ramaswamy on 2 genders (< 60sec):

Ramaswamy is a businessman (not a very good one - Vivek Ramaswamy Is a Fraud—and Always Has Been).

He does not know anything about gender dysphoria or hermaphroditism!

 

[stvdv]

Ramaswamy

He does not know anything about gender dysphoria or hermaphroditism!

Quite a claim you make. Can you prove that?
Are you an expert on this yourself?

It's easy to accuse others

But, I rather hear your personal thoughts on this Gender Dysphoria. Not your thoughts on Ramaswamy

 

[soulsurvivor]

Quite a claim you make. Can you prove that?
Are you an expert on this yourself?

It's easy to accuse others

But, I rather hear your personal thoughts on this Gender Dysphoria. Not your thoughts on Ramaswamy

I don't know anything about gender dysphoria, but I do know that Ramaswamy has no qualifications in this area or any other area. Opinion | The Articulate Ignorance of Vivek Ramaswamy (Published 2023)

 

[Argentbear]

Ok, so, if there is two persons who defines it differently, who is right?

If you ask five people on the street to define woman be prepared to get six different answers. There is no "right" definition epically for a socially complex and nuanced word like woman

 

[Argentbear]

Quite a claim you make. Can you prove that?

Things he says in the video show a lack of knowledge on the topic.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I don't believe the differences in the brain are the cause, more likely it is the result of what the person wants to think.

Why would anyone WANT to think something so uncomfortable, something that results in getting bullied, something that results in great unhappiness? It's just nonsense at face value.

It's like saying "Obsessions are not caused by problems with the brain. They are the result of what the person wants to think."

And before someone jumps all over me, I'm not making the claim gender dysphoria is a mental illness. No analogy is perfect.

 

[1213]

If you ask five people on the street to define woman be prepared to get six different answers. There is no "right" definition epically for a socially complex and nuanced word like woman

Buffalo Springfield sang: Nobody's right if everybody's wrong. If there is no right definition, everybody is wrong.

 

[1213]

Why would anyone WANT to think something so uncomfortable, something that results in getting bullied, something that results in great unhappiness? It's just nonsense at face value.

It's like saying "Obsessions are not caused by problems with the brain. They are the result of what the person wants to think."

People often choose things that can cause bullying and problems. For example many people choose to support Trump, even though it can cause great harm for them. Many people choose not to take a vaccine, even though they lost a job because of that....

People can see things so good that they are willing to take the negative side that comes with it. Doesn't make it any less of their own choice by what they think is good.

And before someone jumps all over me, I'm not making the claim gender dysphoria is a mental illness.

No need to call it illness, but it still seems to be a mental issue. And it therefore can also be "healed" mentally, if one so wants.

 

[Valjean]

Ok, so, if there is two persons who defines it differently, who is right?

They could both be right, inasmuch as their 'definitions' are more like personal explanations of their positions on the matter, rather than technical debates on semantics. As long as both parties can explain themselves and understand each other's perspective, communication was successful.

 

[Valjean]

Yes, I think that is the crucial question. Woman has a female body, so she can know what it means. Men doesn't have a female body, so he can't really know what it means.

I think that is better than a man saying he is a woman, or a woman saying he is a man.

But is it the body or the brain that determines 'gender' or orientation? If a man's born with a female brain, wouldn't you expect him to have a woman's sexual orientation? If I cut a man's head off and replaced it with a woman's, would the result be a man, or a woman?

 

[Revoltingest]

I agree with Vivek Ramaswamy.

Hermaphrodite is not a third gender, only a mix up or malformation of those two.

That poses a problem.
Assume there are only 2 genders.
But some can't be assigned one or the other.
Options:
1) No gender.
2) A 3rd gender.

Potential solution:
Gender is a continuum between male & female.
There is no counting of genders, nor necessity
to assign one or the other.