To Be or Not To Be: your gender (Vivek R.)

[icehorse]

The fact you don['t like the definition of a word doesn't mean that word is not defined.
For purposes of legislation there is no problem defining gender as a social construct that refers to the roles, behaviors, and identities of people, and how they relate to each other. Gender is not biological sex.

The only reason to ignore the existence of gender is to push an agenda of discrimination.

Are you willing to provide definitions and then defend them?

False. Gender dysphoria is an anxiety disorder that affects about 7% of the transgender population at some point in their lives. It is a condition that causes anxiety and distress when a person's gender identity differs from their biological sex. It is also clear that this distress results from external pressures to conform and to deny one's gender identity.

Until you provide and defend definitions for gender and gender identity, this argument is logically meaningless.

While you're at it, can you give us a definition of "transgender"? For example does it include transvestites?

False on so many levels.

the standards of care actually says that every individual is unique and there is no one size fits all and no one set of interventions or explorations. The clinician works together with the patient and family to determine what course treatment is to follow for that individual.

None of what you just said is necessarily in conflict with what I said.

This is claimed a lot but never supported.
Please cite these studies

You seem to be defending GAC. In the world of healthcare GAC is quite radical. It's on you to provide extraordinarily good evidence for this dangerous, irreversible approach.

 

[icehorse]

refresh my memory, it this the individual who provided a false birth certificate indicating she was four years older than she actually was?

why would that absolve the doctors? Does that somehow suspend "first, do no harm" ?

 

[Revoltingest]

why would that absolve the doctors? Does that somehow suspend "first, do no harm" ?

Transitioning is like other medical procedures,
ie, there are risks, & potential for error.
Yet such procedures, eg, heart transplants,
brain surgery, gastric bypass, are worthwhile
choices, risks notwithstanding.
Transitioning needs data, study, consideration,
& establishing best procedures. It will be a
work in progress for some time....like most
other things.

 

[icehorse]

Transitioning need data, study, consideration,
& establishing best procedures. It will be a
work in progress for some time....like most
other things.

Hey, we might agree here!

But the thing is that doctors are rushing into GAC without doing all of the things you just listed. To be clear, they "kind of" do them, but the meta studies show that the studies and research so far has provided only low quality evidence, and in the world of medicine, low quality evidence is not sufficient.

 

[Revoltingest]

Hey, we might agree here!

But the thing is that doctors are rushing into GAC without doing all of the things you just listed.

That sounds like a claim of being a universal problem,
rather than a problem that sometimes happens.
Which is it?

To be clear, they "kind of" do them, but the meta studies show that the studies and research so far has provided only low quality evidence, and in the world of medicine, low quality evidence is not sufficient.

Have some cromulent studies to cite?

 

[icehorse]

That sounds like a claim of being a universal problem,
rather than a problem that sometimes happens.
Which is it?

Have some cromulent studies to cite?

We can start with the meta study done in the Cass report.

 

[Revoltingest]

We can start with the meta study done in the Cass report.

Which do you think it is?

 

[icehorse]

Which do you think it is?

which what? seriously, what are you asking here?

 

[Argentbear]

Are you willing to provide definitions and then defend them?

I just did and definitions don't need to be defended.

Until you provide and defend definitions for gender and gender identity, this argument is logically meaningless.

see above.

And gender dysphoria is spelled out in the DMS

You can stamp your feet all you want but you are the one operating without logic

While you're at it, can you give us a definition of "transgender"? For example does it include transvestites?

Could you open a dictionary?

None of what you just said is necessarily in conflict with what I said.

It actually does

You seem to be defending GAC. In the world of healthcare GAC is quite radical. It's on you to provide extraordinarily good evidence for this dangerous, irreversible approach.

and you are vilifying GAC

More then once i linked us all to MPATH's standard of care and asked you to identify just what in there is dangerous. You never did and if i remember right you actually refused to even read it.

I can't help but notice that i asked you to support your claim: "many studies have shown that kids with GD often grow out of it naturally as they pass thru puberty" and provide some of these "many studies" and you have completely ignored this simple request. Why is that?

 

[Argentbear]

why would that absolve the doctors? Does that somehow suspend "first, do no harm" ?

if such surgeries are being done to children all the time as is the claim why would she have had to falsify her ID and pretend to be an adult?

 

[Argentbear]

Hey, we might agree here!

But the thing is that doctors are rushing into GAC without doing all of the things you just listed.

Any actual evidence to support this?

To be clear, they "kind of" do them, but the meta studies show that the studies and research so far has provided only low quality evidence, and in the world of medicine, low quality evidence is not sufficient.

yet you are citing a low quality bit of research

 

[Argentbear]

We can start with the meta study done in the Cass report.

you mean the report that ignored over 60% of available studies on the topic?
the report that discusses evidence quality and does not define it?
the report that says it wants high quality information on positive outcomes of treatments but refused to include outcomes for
improved body, quality of life, psychosocial functioning, and mental health, and reduced suicidality?
the repory that conducted focus groups of non professionals who indicated that they don't beleive that trans youth even exist?
the report that doesn't support it's own claims about 'regret" or "detransitioning"?

That report?

 

[Revoltingest]

which what? seriously, what are you asking here?

Seriously, aee post #145.

 

[icehorse]

Seriously, aee post #145.

Ah ok. I would say that at this point, ANY use of GAC is premature. Again, it's dangerous, irreversible, and it is not proven to be helpful.

 

[Revoltingest]

Ah ok. I would say that at this point, ANY use of GAC is premature. Again, it's dangerous, irreversible, and it is not proven to be helpful.

Even by adults who freely make the choice,
& have been thru a vetting process?

 

[Kenny]

prove it. Where are all these mutilated children?

MSN

 

[icehorse]

For purposes of legislation there is no problem defining gender as a social construct that refers to the roles, behaviors, and identities of people, and how they relate to each other.

To be clear, is this the definition you're going with?

And gender dysphoria is spelled out in the DMS

Okay, this is progress, are you agreeing that GD is a mental disorder?

Could you open a dictionary?

How about we discuss this in good faith, ffs. "trans" is a fast-moving term, dictionaries don't really keep up with the latest definitions. So what definition of "transgender" do you think we should be using for this discussion?

and you are vilifying GAC

More then once i linked us all to MPATH's standard of care and asked you to identify just what in there is dangerous. You never did and if i remember right you actually refused to even read it.

I can't help but notice that i asked you to support your claim: "many studies have shown that kids with GD often grow out of it naturally as they pass thru puberty" and provide some of these "many studies" and you have completely ignored this simple request. Why is that?

Yes, I am vilifying GAC. I think kids with GD should get talk therapy and nothing more. No social transitioning, no drugs, no surgeries.

As for WPATH's SOC, it's basically GAC, correct? I think that for kids with GD the things I just listed are all dangerous.

As for growing out of GD, studies are easy to find. I know you won't like the folks who put this list of studies together, but that's beside the point. You asked about studies, this link provides a list of studies:

Do children grow out of gender dysphoria? - Transgender Trend

 

[icehorse]

Even by adults who freely make the choice,
& have been thru a vetting process?

This is the sort of errant pedantry up with which you make us all put

For KIDS dude. I said "kids" many times in our exchange.

 

[Revoltingest]

MSN

The Christian Post just might be called a biased source.
the article is agenda laden article, rather than neutral.
It argues corrupt profit motives of abortion providers.
Can you do better....something more worth reading?

Do you believe that all such transition are mutilations,
or that only the regretted transitions are?

 

[Argentbear]

MSN

hey one of the "sources" used to assemble this "database" is the American College of pediatricians - now where have we heard that name before?


Lets take a look at the "database" this organization has compiled and see just how many children have been mutilated....
Now that is funny their data base doesn't show any at all. hmmmm


if we go to the state by state map we can see lots of interesting things. I used the data from the state of Virginia. first thing they list is "Total sex change patients" and learned there were 234 children who had under gone sex change operations....except they hadn't. what the data base list as a sex change patient is anyone who was receiving ANY sort of gender affirming care. but then the data base notes there were 77 surgical patients. Total unique children who underwent gender affirming surgeries. So what surgeries were included? Seems the database doesn't include that information. combing through the pages of billing codes i eventually found that the 77 children in this category were all classified under
the CPT code 55970. But when you make an inquiry about code 55970 you find that it is the surgical code for surgeries related to intersex conditions in newborns

So no sex change operations for children. What a surprise