To Be or Not To Be: your gender (Vivek R.)

[Argentbear]

We know that a huge percentage of kids with GD have a host of other comorbidities.

a 7% correlation with being on the autism spectrum isn't huge

Explain how you can tease those apart to come to the conclusion that GD is the culprit. Maybe it's the autism or the bipolar or the depression that's independent of GD.

trans youth are no more likely to be diagnosed as bipolar than cis youth.

Trans youth do have a significantly higher incidence of depression but that can be traced to minority stress, you know having to deal with people who don't want them to have appropriate care and people who say they are just "confused"

Look, the kids we're discussing ARE suffering. It's just that you have to look at the whole person, not just the political disorder you happen to be interested in.

and denying them gender affirming care makes that suffering worse.

 

[Argentbear]

You're mis-applying math, stats, and science. How would you prefer I respond? Pretend you're not?

You could try to back up your claims

 

[Argentbear]

Thank you for your question

I'm convinced there is a root trauma underneath the "maybe trauma" you mention. I believe in strengthening the base, so solving the root cause, and I avoid symptomatic cure, unless the physical pain is too much

Don't you think it's wise to solve the root trauma first? And some trauma experts even say that once you solve the root trauma, en passant later traumas could be solved also

GD hormone therapy and surgery solves at best some symptoms, not the root cause

Michael Jackson comes to mind in this context

I think a major problem in GD is other people judging them. I don't judge you. If you want surgery, just do it, that's totally fine with me.

But I don't suggest to you to do surgery
I can't suggest it, if I don't believe it to be good
That's like asking an Atheist for blessings to become a Christian

I could suggest it, if I were 100% sure you were not going to regret it, but even then, I have to be omniscient.

So, I don't suggest anything. I tell them, listen to your heart, your conscience. You know what is best for you, others think they know. It's your life, your choice

Bu be aware, this choice is irreversible and could very well damage your organs, the experts say. And if you want proof, that is very, very easy to get.
"Ask your GD doktor, can you guarantee me, that I won't regret it, that I won't get organ damage, that it will solve the problems I have no". 100% sure, if he is no fraud, that he'll admit, that he can give you no guarantees.

yet there is zero evidence of trauma

 

[Argentbear]

It seems we used to be told it wasnt normal but now we are being told born with male dna, male sex organs and a female brain is normal.

That's all I have to say about that.

Not that long ago being left-handed was considered to be not just abnormal but a moral flaw

 

[stvdv]

In other words, Vivek disagrees with the World Health Organization on gender dysphoria.

That was also my observation

Why

Wait ... you make an assumption

That I

care more about

the stance of a failed presidential candidate than the leading medical standards?

I have never said such a thing

In the OP, I just asked:
"What do you think?"

I will start thinking after reading

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It seems we used to be told it wasnt normal but now we are being told born with male dna, male sex organs and a female brain is normal.

That's all I have to say about that.

Normal like left handedness. Normal like being autistic. Just because it's rare doesn't mean it's necessarily abnormal. Afterall, it's normal although very rare for someone to have polydactyly.
It's just a different flavor and variety of a the many we come in.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

trans youth are no more likely to be diagnosed as bipolar than cis youth.

Trans youth do have a significantly higher incidence of depression but that can be traced to minority stress, you know having to deal with people who don't want them to have appropriate care and people who say they are just "confused"
and denying them gender affirming care makes that suffering worse.

Yes. It's sad they don't really care that what they want and insist on how things should be is to say they don't care if people like me suffer through life in profound ways they can never know or comprehend.

 

[stvdv]

Being physically healthy isn't necessarily healthy. This is medical anthropology. Being healthy is physical and mental. This is why these "perfect health" examples fall apart because that is only one part of the picture and it serves no one to act and pretend it's the end all-be all of wellness (this also goes into the euthanasia debate).

My post was as a reply to @Revoltingest, and I replied in that context:
a) 12, 13 year old ... Gender Dysphoria
vs
b) 40+ year old ... Heart transplant

But you're right, I've been physical sick my whole life, from very young age, so that is possible. But on avarage a 12 year old is in better condition than those waiting for a heart transplant

Amd do tell me how my physical health has been "big time damaged" from a "gd program"?

I meant, irreversible change due to hormones and surgery

Damaged bad?

No. In the sense irreversible

My mental state improved

I am really glad to hear that

so much I quit tobacco and now rarely drink and hardly at all to drunkeness.

Great news, thank you for sharing. First hand experience I like the best. Now I know that GD treatment can improve mental and physical health drastically, that's why I started the thread, I didn't know about it, just from reading. I trust you, and your experience.

I am not surprised. I have discovered that my addictions are gone when my mental state is good

So you've got a precipitous hill in trying to tell me my health is wrecked, especially as you aren't my physician and don't have access to my records to know my health.

Irreversibly changed, not "health wrecked"
Damaged as in "female has her breasts taken away, when transitioning"

 

[stvdv]

You say its an experimenting phase but medical transitions have been happening for over a century now

Thank you, I didn't know the medical transitions already existed more than 100 year

This has actually been known for a long time. This is why we let real, experienced professionals who are trained in this subject handle care decisions and

Smart choice

not uneducated and ill and underinformed laymen like you.

Hence my remark:
"I don't suggest others to do(n't) therapy"
When asked I tell people:
"You know best about you, what to do"

Ya know, standard, run of the mill healthcare policies and practices

Yes, I know

Love, Peace and Blessings to you
(unrelated to Religion)

And thanks again for sharing your useful firsthand experience, I appreciate that

 

[1213]

What if both?

If person has actually both, and both are functional, then the person can be called a man and a woman.

 

[1213]

My Master told us:
God is male
All humans are female

Who is the master?

At least it's more simple than Gender Dysphoria

Maybe. I recommend in this case the Jack Sparrow philosophy, "the only thing that matters is what a man can do and what a man can't do". This doesn't mean a man should do everything he cans, but that it would be better to focus on real issues rather than get lost in feeling based delusions.

Personally, I prefer things simple

I think that is a very good way.

When I have headache
I take difficult math problems
After solving them the headache is gone

Nice

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Hey, an honest post!

The GAC propaganda

It's very telling that you point out me giving a perfectly straight-forward answer to a simple question as being rightly "honest" and then immediately begin spinning my answer to add your dishonest framing to it.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Another bad faith argument, sigh.

A simple question that was never answered. You tend not to like those.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

For those of you reading along this thread, I want you to know that I'm not going to respond to mr. flame for the simple reason that he started his exchange with me by lying about the nature of my posts.

Uh huh. He says, proving sources from explicitly anti-trans websites.

For those of your reading along this thread, I want you to notice how completely unwilling Mr Horse is to answer a basic challenge regarding his sources, and why all of his supposedly rational, science based arguments are based on right-wing talking points and Google searches for anti-trans websites.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I'm inferring from your posts that either you don't understand how healthcare works, or you don't understand statistics, or you don't understand meta-studies. either that or you DO understand those things and you're intentionally misconstruing them.

In any case, I'm not going to teach you these things.

Ladies and gentlemen, may a present a case study in how to argue with "totally good faith, reason, logic and science" demonstrated by Mr Horse.

"Oh, you've presented a five-point takedown explaining in detail why my sources don't effectively support my point? Well, you don't understand science or whatever!"

Truly remarkable.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Thank you for your question

I'm convinced there is a root trauma underneath the "maybe trauma" you mention. I believe in strengthening the base, so solving the root cause, and I avoid symptomatic cure, unless the physical pain is too much

Don't you think it's wise to solve the root trauma first? And some trauma experts even say that once you solve the root trauma, en passant later traumas could be solved also

GD hormone therapy and surgery solves at best some symptoms, not the root cause

Unless the root cause is not having hormone therapy and surgery. This is what you fail to understand.

Would you use this logic to argue that, say, we shouldn't be giving antidepressants to kids? Because we should "solve the root trauma" first? What if the root trauma isn't something that can be solved at all, only the negative symptoms treated (as is often the case)?

This is a very naive view of how medicine works, and an exceptionally narrow view of how humans work. You would never suggest that a child suffering from any other condition who needed any other kind of treatment (regardless how drastic) to solve their issue should forgo the solution in favour of "solving the root trauma". And the fact that you say things like this just makes be happy that these kinds of decisions are made by professionals and experts who actually understand medicine and have examined and cared for the patient enough to make an educated assessment, rather than people like you who are so certain you know what is best in all possible cases despite having no medical experience or expertise whatsoever.

The only consequence of GAC in children that we see consistently is significantly less suicidal depression. Would you argue that more kids killing themselves is a preferable state of affairs to allowing children access to medical care that can actually HELP THEM?

Michael Jackson comes to mind in this context

I think a major problem in GD is other people judging them. I don't judge you. If you want surgery, just do it, that's totally fine with me.

But I don't suggest to you to do surgery
I can't suggest it, if I don't believe it to be good
That's like asking an Atheist for blessings to become a Christian

People can do what they want, and medical expertise doesn't always align with your personal position on a subject. Do you believe your personal, emotional feelings on this subject is greater than the sum total of medical knowledge on the subject?

I could suggest it, if I were 100% sure you were not going to regret it, but even then, I have to be omniscient.

Which is exactly why you telling people that they shouldn't receive treatment over dealing with the "root cause" gives lie to your entire position. You seem to accept that you aren't omniscient, except when it comes to the best ways in which to treat gender dysphoria in kids, then you somehow possess the miraculous ability to determine what is best in all cases and make sweeping assessments about best medical care.

So, I don't suggest anything. I tell them, listen to your heart, your conscience. You know what is best for you, others think they know. It's your life, your choice

Bu be aware, this choice is irreversible and could very well damage your organs, the experts say.

Not always. Not all transition is medical.

And if you want proof, that is very, very easy to get.
"Ask your GD doktor, can you guarantee me, that I won't regret it, that I won't get organ damage, that it will solve the problems I have no". 100% sure, if he is no fraud, that he'll admit, that he can give you no guarantees.

This is a ridiculous argument, since ALL surgeries for practically anything carry risks. You might as well be arguing against the very concept of medicine, since almost any kind of treatment is not guaranteed to result in regret or organ damage.

Regret rates are higher for hip replacement surgeries than they are for gender affirmative surgeries, so your argument would actually be more effective for convincing people to forgo hip replacement than it would be to forgo trans-affirmative surgeries.

 

[Valjean]

That's your opinion

My Advaita teachers all taught me:
"You are not the body"
"You are not the mind"
"Thou Art That"

Understood, but there are different levels of reality. Reality is different at different levels of consciousness. Mix them and only confusion can result.
Unless indicated otherwise, posts here on RF are assumed to be from a phenomenological point of view.

 

[stvdv]

Understood, but there are different levels of reality. Reality is different at different levels of consciousness. Mix them and only confusion can result.
Unless indicated otherwise, posts here on RF are assumed to be from a

True, confusion won't help

Though
"You are not your body" (including brain)
"you are not your mind"
Most on Religious Forums understand
Won't give too much confusion
A great first step in letting go
Our false attachments

phenomenological point of view.

Nice one

 

[Kenny]

Of course it would be good to guide them, to solve emotional traumas if there are any, and make 100% sure it's not trauma related, like depression or being bullied, or violence at home etc.etc

So you literally believe children should not receive any kind of medical care or assistance?

Are you saying that counseling for trauma and depression is not a professional treatment?

 

[Kenny]

As I thought....histrionic conflations Holocaust & abortion....genocide & abortion.
You fail to recognize that most of us don't consider abortion to be "murder".
Fundies want to impose bizarre Biblical interpretations upon others.

Has nothing to do with fundies… it is simple logic. I know you like to throw in “religion” whenever logic is used.