To Be or Not To Be: your gender (Vivek R.)

[Argentbear]

I have thousands of years of evidence to back up my assertion. We haven't even tiptoed into the social contagion aspect of this situation yet, but ultimately the apologists have to answer the question: why do we see such a huge surge in GD and only in certain areas and mostly with adolescent girls...

Yeah the contagion thing. Based on a retracted study Parent reports of adolescents and young adults perceived to show signs of a rapid onset of gender dysphoria by Lisa Littman. Littman surveyed parents of trans youth but recruited her sample from websites aimed at parents who reject the idea that their children could be transgender and opened the interview with a statement of exactly what she was looking to find.

So no, the apologists have to provide extraordinarily good evidence that the best way to help confused kids with GD in this social media rich world, is thru drugs and sometimes surgeries. THAT is an extraordinary claim. And I await your best studies...

First you have again made the unsupported claim that children presenting with gender dysphoria are just "confused"

Second you have again presented the false claim that gender affirming care prioritizes drugs and surgery for every one

==

As for the studies you linked to - do you understand the idea of meta-studies? We all have to rely on them, not a cherry picked handful.

I posted "DO I think for one second you will be honest enough to look at it? Nope, You will dismiss it out of hand" and you have proven me correct.

 

[stvdv]

Then don't hold this stance.

Let the individual and health care providers guide and decide these things. That is the only appropriate response to healthcare, especially when it's other people.

So, I'll share my "stance", then there is no confusion from now on (I tried to be as precise as I could). This is how I believe, and that will never change I think (core beliefs)

From my Spiritual POV:
IF there was a God (as in person) then this God would Love gay, lesbian, transgender, xxx all the same ... unconditional, no exception

No one has the right to criticize the feelings or beliefs of others (you can criticize actions)

Everyone was granted this life, so all are free to choose for themselves and I have no right to even critique them; meaning whatever you do, know, that I don't criticize you for it

I don't impose on others how they should feel
I don't want others to impose on me how to feel

So: in short, this is my stance
I don't criticize you for your choice of Gender Dysphoria
You don't criticize me for my choice of Trump (example)
AND of course
I am free to not choose for Gender Dysphoria
You are free to not choose for Trump (example)

 

[icehorse]

That's absurd. If you were going by thousands of years you'd see people we'd call trans and you'd know there absolutely nothing new about trans care. But all you keep giving is the same debunked rubbish.

Sooooo many fallacies in that post I don't know where to start.

But I will say this: We've been over this ground before and you consistently strawman my claims. So once again - with jazz hands:

- I'm NOT saying that trangenderism doesn't exist
- I'm NOT saying it's new

- I AM saying that in the last 10-15 years there has been an ENORMOUS increase in GD, and that it "mysteriously" it centers around financially secure girls in affluent countries. (social contagion seems an extremely parsimonious explanation for this.)
- I AM saying that GAC is only about 13 years old - it started with the "Dutch Protocol"

 

[icehorse]

Let the individual and health care providers guide and decide these things. That is the only appropriate response to healthcare, especially when it's other people.

There have been medical scandals in the past, and IMO we're experiencing one now with GAC. In the US, the business of medicine is entrenched in defending GAC. It's a cash cow via the abhorrent mechanism of medicalizing kids for life. And when GAC collapses, the business of medicine in the US will be facing a tidal wave of lawsuits.

On this issue, "healthcare providers" if not corrupt themselves are driven by those who are corrupt. And again, medicine is an extremely broad discipline. It is extremely common for individual healthcare providers to rely on the protocols of specialists. But in this case, the "specialists" are corrupt.

So no, let's not sit back and let this scandal proceed. Let's put an end to it ASAP.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Hey, an honest post!

The GAC propaganda would have us believe that we can eat our cake and have it too. We cannot. Hormones are dangerous and have irreversible side effects.

So IF, and it's a big, huge, gravel-hauling IF, we could find ways to make social transitioning, and puberty blockers and hormones all safe and reversible, you might have an argument in favor of GAC for kids.

But none of those interventions are safe or reversible.

In your opinion.
You are not a medical professional, as far as I'm aware.

 

[Kathryn]

I don't see puberty blockers or hormones as safe or reversible. Can you provide evidence? Thanks.

 

[icehorse]

In your opinion.
You are not a medical professional, as far as I'm aware.

Pretty much everyone on this site is relying on authorities. I think the US's healthcare system is corrupt, do you disagree? Further, I think the European countries who have backed away from GAC provide better healthcare then the US does.

Finally, it defies common sense to imagine we can screw around with extremely complex human bodies using crude drugs and NOT have negative side effects.

So again, those who claim "no side effects" are making an extraordinary claim, and I await their extraordinarily good evidence. All the evidence the Cass report found was of low quality, i.e. not good enough to base medical interventions on.

 

[Argentbear]

I don't see puberty blockers or hormones as safe or reversible. Can you provide evidence? Thanks.

Puberty blockers have been in use for over 40 years and tens of thousands of children have been on them usually for medical conditions like precocious puberty. Puberty blockers pause puberty and when you stop taking the medication puberty picks up where it lest off.

 

[Argentbear]

Pretty much everyone on this site is relying on authorities. I think the US's healthcare system is corrupt, do you disagree? Further, I think the European countries who have backed away from GAC provide better healthcare then the US does.

Finally, it defies common sense to imagine we can screw around with extremely complex human bodies using crude drugs and NOT have negative side effects.

So again, those who claim "no side effects" are making an extraordinary claim, and I await their extraordinarily good evidence.

the claim that the US's healthcare system is corrupt is an extraordinary claim

All the evidence the Cass report found was of low quality, i.e. not good enough to base medical interventions on.

except the Cass report refused to look at the majority of studies

 

[icehorse]

the claim that the US's healthcare system is corrupt is an extraordinary claim

Really? Why are our prescription drug prices many times higher than in so many other countries? Why does getting ill bankrupt so many families? I could go on and on. The US healthcare system is run like a for-profit business, not like a human right all people should have.

except the Cass report refused to look at the majority of studies

I will ask you again, what are your specific thoughts about the process Cass's team used? It is outlined in pages 46-64 of the report as I recall.

 

[Revoltingest]

The reason why I like the idea is, it is logical and reasonable. But, obviously this depends on what meaning we give to the word "gender". If there is more than 2 genders, I think the word gender has no reasonable use or meaning.

Other ideas are as logical & reasonable.
I'm only objecting to dogmatic devotion
to a single of the several approaches.
Including non-binary is useful.
Discarding it as not one of the 2 strikes
me as unnecessary & dysfunctional.

 

[Kathryn]

Puberty blockers have been in use for over 40 years and tens of thousands of children have been on them usually for medical conditions like precocious puberty. Puberty blockers pause puberty and when you stop taking the medication puberty picks up where it lest off.

Please give me a source. Thanks.

 

[icehorse]

Yeah the contagion thing. Based on a retracted study Parent reports of adolescents and young adults perceived to show signs of a rapid onset of gender dysphoria by Lisa Littman. Littman surveyed parents of trans youth but recruited her sample from websites aimed at parents who reject the idea that their children could be transgender and opened the interview with a statement of exactly what she was looking to find.

Are you denying that in the last 10-15 years there has been an exponential growth in reports of GD?

If you don't deny that, then to what do you attribute this massive spike?

First you have again made the unsupported claim that children presenting with gender dysphoria are just "confused"

For the most part they are. Maybe they will end up being trans, but if given talk therapy, most will not. And couple that with the fact that most of these GD kids also have other mental health comorbidities, and I think "confused" is a fair generalization.

Second you have again presented the false claim that gender affirming care prioritizes drugs and surgery for every one

We're in a long exchange here. It is common in such conversations / debates to build new statements on prior statements. In this case I've said several times earlier, that I'm in favor of talk therapy for kids with GD. And I have been clear that I opposed those instances in which social transitioning, and/or drugs, and/or surgeries are used. So there, I'm not going to keep repeating myself, keep up with the conversation.

I posted "DO I think for one second you will be honest enough to look at it? Nope, You will dismiss it out of hand" and you have proven me correct.

I didn't dismiss it out of hand, I did simple math. Let me put this a different way: You provided a list of perhaps a dozen studies, correct? Cass looked at hundreds of studies.

And again, Cass describes the team's methodology on pages 46-64. What aspoects of that methodology do you disagree with? How would you suggest improving the methodologies of meta-studies?