To defeat creationist, must you defeat their religion????

[outhouse]

I guess my questions are not going to be addressed.

This whole thread is a straw man. :sorry1:

Can anyone explain why fundamentalists must be defeated or why they must acknowledge science?

Im sorry Rick, your reply got lost in the shuffle.

Do you have any examples of religion stopping medical advancement?

abortion

stem cell research

What do you perceive as "crossing the line of science"? Any examples?

dismissal of

geology
biology
dating methods
evolution

I don't believe we are allowed to "push religion" in schools are we?

Allthough only a few months ago, repeat "a few months ago" creationism was still taught in schools here in the USA. The teachers are not all on board and many do laugh off evolution still to this day. There is a thread running now by skwin addressing the issue.

Can anyone explain why fundamentalists must be defeated or why they must acknowledge science?

they dont have to acknowledge science Rick, people do have freedom to live in ignornace or denial or in imaginatiomn land if they choose. Sooner or later if they like it or not, science is more a part of people's lives then not, from medicine and anti biotics to the first visit in a hospital. To the computer they may use or the life flight unit that trys to pull their children from the river when the horse and carriage tips over in the river. You can avoid religion but not science.

Now I will give you defeated was the wrong word. More then anything religions mythical aspects should be kept in check by said religion. Sadly its not the case. Thats why the USA has a %60 belief rate in a myth. you dont think that is primitive and barbaric that the majority of the people blindly follow a religious myth that is not a part of reality?????

 

[outhouse]

Incorrect.

wa:do

thats your opinion


The relationship between religion and myth depends on what definition of "myth" one uses

 

[Reverend Rick]

"In the beginning God said, let there be light"

"In the beginning there was a big bang"

One is sooo much more intelligent than the other.

One could ask, who made God?

One could ask, what made the big bang?

Both questions could be answered, but there is no way of confirming anything. :no:

 

[Caladan]

That's a great point. and this is the exact same reason why both scientists and religious students debate daily.
Scientists would debate very specific and sometimes even minor theories for years, test them in the field, the soil, run empirical tests. and the root dilemma would still remain unresolved. or 'confirmed' as it is. all men of science can do, is affirm or rather reaffirm existing 'phenomenon', and understand them little by little, with each year, each decade.
Religious students are doing the same. they sit in Jewish religious schools, in Islamic madrassas. and they debate their scriptures. they run and test all disagreements on them. and they still do not agree on even the very basics. however, what they do. is sharpen their study capabilities, and their capacity to contain ideas and observations. they become more mentally proficient as it were. and if they are smart enough, they then go and apply these tools or skills in a line of work. from banking, to other fields which demand serious thought.

 

[outhouse]

One is sooo much more intelligent than the other

first we know ancient hebrews knew nothing about the big bang and there wasnt a bang so to speak so there was no flash of light. there was how ever and expansion of time and space during the singularity.


you know as well as I do genesis is a fable ment to be read allegorically.

god also said "let us make man in OUR image"

One could ask, who made God?

sir, I believe ancient hebrews created the god figure from previous myths handed down through oral tradition. This is my opinion.

One could ask, what made the big bang?

I would say a proccess of nature we do not fully understand.

For 200,000 years man has made deitys and spirits for what he doesnt know. because we dont know or understand the big bang I find no reason to put a magic man in to fill the blanks in our minds.

Both questions could be answered, but there is no way of confirming anything

Correct Rick

But one is using imagination to fill a gap in our knowledge and the other is still trying to find a real answer.

 

[outhouse]

That's a great point. and this is the exact same reason why both scientists and religious students debate daily.
Scientists would debate very specific and sometimes even minor theories for years, test them in the field, the soil, run empirical tests. and the root dilemma would still remain unresolved. or 'confirmed' as it is. all men of science can do, is affirm existing 'phenomenon', and understand them little by little, with each year, each decade.
Religious students are doing the same. they sit in Jewish religious schools, in Islamic madrassas. and they debate their scriptures. they run and test all disagreements on them. and they still do not agree on even the very basics. however, what they do. is sharpen their study capabilities, and their capacity to contain ideas and observations. they become more mentally proficient as it were. and if they are smart enough, they then go and apply these tools or skills in a line of work. from banking, to other fields which demand serious thought.

A good point but how far can they go with ancient material?

I would like to point out in your society my problem may not be so big. Creationism is not a big a problem there as it is here.

 

[Caladan]

A good point but how far can they go with ancient material?

I would like to point out in your society my problem may not be so big. Creationism is not a big a problem there as it is here.

Maybe so. but even a man such as myself, with strong tendencies for atheism. finds reassurance in the scriptures. the Abrahamic ones that is. the ones which discuss the daily reality of the Middle east. all its juices. the politics, the class differences, the economic problems. what the Abrahamic scriptures do. is present us the dilemmas and the work of men who have been facing and confronting wars in the middle east, occupation, refugees, economical crisis. much as we confront today.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Im sorry Rick, your reply got lost in the shuffle.



abortion

Legal

stem cell research

Is going on.

dismissal of

geology
biology
dating methods
evolution

people dismiss things all the time. It is stopping no one.

Allthough only a few months ago, repeat "a few months ago" creationism was still taught in schools here in the USA. The teachers are not all on board and many do laugh off evolution still to this day. There is a thread running now by skwin addressing the issue.



they dont have to acknowledge science Rick, people do have freedom to live in ignornace or denial or in imaginatiomn land if they choose. Sooner or later if they like it or not, science is more a part of people's lives then not, from medicine and anti biotics to the first visit in a hospital. To the computer they may use or the life flight unit that trys to pull their children from the river when the horse and carriage tips over in the river. You can avoid religion but not science.

Now I will give you defeated was the wrong word. More then anything religions mythical aspects should be kept in check by said religion. Sadly its not the case. Thats why the USA has a %60 belief rate in a myth. you dont think that is primitive and barbaric that the majority of the people blindly follow a religious myth that is not a part of reality?????

I believe people can choose to educate themselves or they can choose to be ignorant. It is their right to exercise this freedom.

I don't understand why you want everyone to think in lock step?

 

[outhouse]

Maybe so. but even a man such as myself, with strong tendencies for atheism. finds reassurance in the scriptures. the Abrahamic ones that is. the ones which discuss the daily reality of the Middle east. all its juices. the politics, the class differences, the economic problems. what the Abrahamic scriptures do. is present us the dilemmas and the work of men who have been facing and confronting wars of the middle east, occupation, refugees, economical crisis. much as we do today.

I do find value in scripture and I dont want to destroy any religion just because they go against evolution.

I think I could have used a better term then defeat as that has allot of possibilities I didnt mean.

 

[Caladan]

I do find value in scripture and I dont want to destroy any religion just because they go against evolution.

I think I could have used a better term then defeat as that has allot of possibilities I didnt mean.

I think you need to educate yourself. that history documents Christian men and Islamic men before them as forerunners to the theories and implications of evolution.

 

[painted wolf]

thats your opinion


The relationship between religion and myth depends on what definition of "myth" one uses

And that is your opinion.... but you refuse to account for other definitions.

What did you think of the Pirahã btw? No myths, no invisible gods, no imagination.

wa:do

 

[outhouse]

I don't understand why you want everyone to think in lock step?

I do live in Auburn Lol

because I feel it impedes education and drags humanity down.

 

[outhouse]

that history documents Christian men and Islamic men before them as forerunners to the theories and implications of evolution.

please explain a little better for me, i dont quite understand

 

[outhouse]

And that is your opinion.... but you refuse to account for other definitions.

What did you think of the Pirahã btw? No myths, no invisible gods, no imagination.

wa:do

wrong

I know this culture as its close to the old ways in Peru [I know Peru]

but i do admire their straight foward approach [goes with their name]

Pirahã people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

However, they do believe in spirits that can sometimes take on the shape of things in the environment. These spirits can be jaguars, trees, or other visible, tangible things including people.[11] Everett reported one incident where the Pirahã said that “Xigagaí, one of the beings that lives above the clouds, was standing on a beach yelling at us, telling us that he would kill us if we go into the jungle.” Everett and his daughter could see nothing and yet the Pirahã insisted that Xigagaí was still on the beach.[12]

 

[Caladan]

please explain a little better for me, i dont quite understand

I will take the best known example. Darwin and his competition were all living in an Anglican society. Darwin was a student of theology earlier in life. and saw religion as a strategy mechanism for the survival of a group of people. and still considered God as the law giver.
Some centuries before that during the middle ages. Islamic scholars laboured on extensive field work to reaffirm evolutionary theories.

 

[outhouse]

I will take the best known example. Darwin and his competition were all living in an Anglican society. Darwin was a student of theology earlier in life. and saw religion as a strategy mechanism for the survival of a group of people. and still considered God as the law giver.
Some centuries before that. Islamic scholars worked on extensive field work to reaffirm evolutionary theories.

Ok

I do understand religious creationist developed evolution.

I think i see what your saying, religion does think for itself and does make advancements despite the ancient literature.

 

[outhouse]

people dismiss things all the time. It is stopping no one

its stopping the children from learning

 

[painted wolf]

wrong

orly?

I know this culture as its close to the old ways in Peru [I know Peru]

but i do admire their straight foward approach [goes with their name]

Peru is fascinating... I have family there and really should make it over some day.

Pirahã people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

However, they do believe in spirits that can sometimes take on the shape of things in the environment. These spirits can be jaguars, trees, or other visible, tangible things including people.[11] Everett reported one incident where the Pirahã said that “Xigagaí, one of the beings that lives above the clouds, was standing on a beach yelling at us, telling us that he would kill us if we go into the jungle.” Everett and his daughter could see nothing and yet the Pirahã insisted that Xigagaí was still on the beach.[12]

As I said, they believe in only what they personally experience. They wouldn't say it if they didn't see and hear it. That is the key. Or are you suggesting the person was lying?

wa:do

 

[outhouse]

Peru is fascinating... I have family there and really should make it over some day.

The museo de oro is a must see but passed on by most people. The country is flat riddled with incan history from one end to the other. A little Richer $ then many south american countries.

My wife is from peru and we have family there as well

Or are you suggesting the person was lying

no im not suggesting that

your only error was with the "imagination" and they did say they had they man in the clouds [sort of a god type spirit]

 

[Caladan]

Ok

I do understand religious creationist developed evolution.

I think i see what your saying, religion does think for itself and does make advancements despite the ancient literature.

Hands down. that is a great observation.