• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

To The Jesus Myth Theorist

Which reduces your argument to little more than silly obstinance.

Silly, perhaps! I think we are all a little silly in some regards! Obstinant, definately! When I was in primary (elementary) school, my scripture teacher said the same thing and on one occaision threw a pair of scissors as my head. I do not make a very good follower, and my major weakness, aside from my spelling and punctuation, is that I am obssessed with being right, rather than merely believing I am, which has led me to know that I know nothing! I do enjoy drawing inspiration from a variety of sources, be they Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, Communist, Capitalist, Atheist, Deist, and pretty much anywhere! I am a wanderer and I have no pillow to rest my head, nor do I want one!
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
I do not want to go into too much here, ...

Clearly.

..., but look into the (probable)Eusebian fabrication of the Letters from Jesus to the Syrian King Abgar (Abgar actually means King in Syrian, which is quite funny, so Jesus wrote a letter to King king of Syria); and the letters from this king to Jesus.

Check out Eusebius' use of the Greek term 'Poietes' versus Josephus' and his application of the term 'tribe' versus Josephus'. that should get you started and I am sure that Legion could help you in this regard, as I feel he is a very competant scholar and I use that term to mean well read, especially with regards to Greek and other classical languages.
Again:
Why do the majority of scholars believe it to be authentic? Where is their reasoning flawed? And why, in your opinion, is it more reasonable to assume that a 4th century apologist would fabricate such a problematic characterization than it is to provisionally accept the reference as authentic?​
Parenthetically, if you actually intend to make a case against Eusebius, I encourage you to embark on such silliness in its own thread rather than through these intellectually irresponsible asides.
 
Clearly.


Again:
Why do the majority of scholars believe it to be authentic? Where is their reasoning flawed? And why, in your opinion, is it more reasonable to assume that a 4th century apologist would fabricate such a problematic characterization than it is to provisionally accept the reference as authentic?
Parenthetically, if you actually intend to make a case against Eusebius, I encourage you to embark on such silliness in its own thread rather than through these intellectually irresponsible asides.

I am saying that it is a possibility which goes to weakening the "best explanation" for the evidence. I am just trying to look at things in my own way, but you go ahead and follow the flock!
 

Gjallarhorn

N'yog-Sothep
I am saying that it is a possibility which goes to weakening the "best explanation" for the evidence. I am just trying to look at things in my own way, but you go ahead and follow the flock!

Yeah, the thing about that is that just because you "look at things in my own way" doesn't make you right.
 

Prophet

breaking the statutes of my local municipality
Perhaps Wednesday when I have sufficient time to bone up, I will voice my own disagreements with Mr. Sherlock, but there is no boning up necessary to take issue with the staffer's use of disrespect as a means of discrediting Mr. Sherlock's theories, as I've seen this before from him.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
I am saying that it is a possibility which goes to weakening the "best explanation" for the evidence.
You are apparently doing everything you can to avoid answering my questions. So, once again:
Why do the majority of scholars believe it to be authentic? Where is their reasoning flawed? And why, in your opinion, is it more reasonable to assume that a 4th century apologist would fabricate such a problematic characterization than it is to provisionally accept the reference as authentic?​

I am just trying to look at things in my own way, but you go ahead and follow the flock!
Look at them however you wish, but don't succumb to the illusion that your approach is anything other than agenda driven selection bias.

Eusebius? Really? Good grief. :face palm:

From Whealey ...

... it has been observed by many others that Josephus' names for James and Jesus are quite unusual for a Christian. By the time of Hegesippus, Christians typically called James "the Just." Even as early as the 50s AD Paul, who was personally acquainted with James, calls him and Jesus' other brothers "brothers of the Lord" (Gal 1:19; 1 Cor 9:5). Moreover, the expression "Jesus called the Christ (Ant.20.200), although not derogatory, certainly implies some distance from the Christian affirmation that Jesus is the Christ.

... [also note] the implausibility of a second or third century Christian at all forging a passage about one of Jesus' brothers. Yet already by the mid to late second century, the mere fact that Jesus had brothers or even half brothers was becoming highly problematic in Christian circles. The Protevangelium of James and the Gospel of Peter were written in this period, and both of these Biblical apocrypha make Jesus' brothers into step-brothers because they are concerned to maintain the idea that Mary was a perpetual virgin, without contradicting Luke 2:7 that Jesus was her first-born son. Although the Protevangelium was never canonized, its influence on Christian understanding about Jesus family even in this period was enormous. Origen, who clearly did not consider it scripture, approved of its ideas about Mary's perpetual virginity. ... [and] Origen evidently found it difficult to believe that Jesus had a biological half-brother: when citing Josephus' passage on James in his public apology Contra Celsum, he hastens to assure even its mainly non-Christian target audience that Paul described "him as the Lord's brother, not referring so much to their blood relationship or common upbringing as to morality and understanding." By the late fourth century, even the idea that Jesus' brothers are no more than half-brothers was beginning to border on heresy in the West, as we learn from Jerome's Adversus Helvidium, in which Jerome insisted that Jesus' New Testament are actually maternal cousins. Jerome's idea that the brothers mentioned in the New Testament are actually Jesus' cousins was not challenged in the Western church even during the Reformation. Only in the last two centuries has it become commonplace for Protestants to affirm that they must be at least half-brothers. Given the reluctance of many Christans to affirm openly that Jesus had brothers or half-brothers even as early as the middle tp late second century, the idea that Josephus' passage about "James the brother of Jesus called the Christ" was composed by some ancient Christian can be safely laid to rest.
Except, of course, by you. So be it. But you have to hand it to Origen: quoting and clarifying a Eusebius interpolation was no easy task.

So tell me, was Eusebius also responsible for thoroughly redacting the Pagan and Jewish mythicist polemic against the Christianity, or were the Pagans and Jews simply too stupid to mount an argument against the historicity of Jesus?
 
Last edited:

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
I am saying that it is a possibility which goes to weakening the "best explanation" for the evidence. I am just trying to look at things in my own way, but you go ahead and follow the flock!

This really has nothing to do with you looking at things your own way. What you're doing is blindly following an idea because you like it. That is dishonest, it is not scholarly, and really, makes me feel sorry for anyone who would be suckered into buying one of your books.

You have yet made a real argument against Josephus speaking about Jesus, or really a real argument to support anything you're saying here. All you've presented, and you almost admit it, is wishful thinking based on whatever you feel like believing.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
I am saying that it is a possibility which goes to weakening the "best explanation" for the evidence.
So, in summary, your best explanation of the evidence goes something like ...
  • 1.1 Paul and Luke fabricated the Jerusalem sect and their complex and oft times difficult relationship with it, or
  • 1.2 the Jerusalem sect was real but the best explanation is that
    • it evolved in the absence of a sect leader, or
    • that sect leader was most likely named something other than Yeshua.
  • 2.0 Despite Paul being an unscupulous though clever liar he was not so clever as to claim that he actually met Jesus other than during his suspect encounter on the road to Damascus, even though any number of alternative fabrications would have proven less problematic while serving to enhance his authority.
  • 3.1 Later, similarly uncrupulous Christians would modify the Josephus reference to James in the least appropriate way,
  • 3.2 yet none of this band of interpolators thought to redact the unfortunate formulation, replacing it with something somewhat more appropriate.
  • 4.1 Meanwhile, the same unscrupulous Christians busied themselves expunging all record Pagan attacks on the historicity of Jesus and his Jerusalem sect, or, conversely,
  • 4.2 these Pagans were too ignorant or too disinterested to question this historicity.
  • 5.1 Similarly, these same unscrupulous Christians somehow managed to eradicate every instance of Jewish attacks on the historicity of Jesus and his Jerusalem sect, or, conversely,
  • 5.2 the Jews were likewise too ignorant or too disinterested to question this historicity.
:facepalm:
 

CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
So, in summary, your best explanation of the evidence goes something like ...
  • 1.1 Paul and Luke fabricated the Jerusalem sect and their complex and oft times difficult relationship with it, or
  • 1.2 the Jerusalem sect was real but the best explanation is that
    • it evolved in the absence of a sect leader, or
    • that sect leader was most likely named something other than Yeshua.
  • 2.0 Despite Paul being an unscupulous though clever liar he was not so clever as to claim that he actually met Jesus other than during his suspect encounter on the road to Damascus, even though any number of alternative fabrications would have proven less problematic while serving to enhance his authority.
  • 3.1 Later, similarly uncrupulous Christians would modify the Josephus reference to James in the least appropriate way,
  • 3.2 yet none of this band of interpolators thought to redact the unfortunate formulation, replacing it with something somewhat more appropriate.
  • 4.1 Meanwhile, the same unscrupulous Christians busied themselves expunging all record Pagan attacks on the historicity of Jesus and his Jerusalem sect, or, conversely,
  • 4.2 these Pagans were too ignorant or too disinterested to question this historicity.
  • 5.1 Similarly, these same unscrupulous Christians somehow managed to eradicate every instance of Jewish attacks on the historicity of Jesus and his Jerusalem sect, or, conversely,
  • 5.2 the Jews were likewise too ignorant or too disinterested to question this historicity.
:facepalm:

Where do the Freemasons and Illuminati fit in?
 
Where do the Freemasons and Illuminati fit in?

It seems that emotions are running high on this issue. The best thing we can do here is ask ourselves why. Why I am so attached to an idea? I am doing this right now. If I submit my entire thesis regarding the Josephus forgery on this public forum, then how do I protect that information so that readers can enjoy the arguments which they have paid money for?

What I like to do when I am feeling emotional about an idea or subject is argue against myself, I find it helps quell some of those feelings of attachement.
 

CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
It seems that emotions are running high on this issue. The best thing we can do here is ask ourselves why. Why I am so attached to an idea? I am doing this right now. If I submit my entire thesis regarding the Josephus forgery on this public forum, then how do I protect that information so that readers can enjoy the arguments which they have paid money for?

What I like to do when I am feeling emotional about an idea or subject is argue against myself, I find it helps quell some of those feelings of attachement.

We promise to pay you the 14.95 you'll make off your book.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
To pay for that which is predictably worthless is silly

NOT if it's cheaper than toilet paper.

That would be a good investment.

My wife uses about 320 square feet a day. I figured that up during our first year, and she won't let me update the numbers. :(
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
You're too kind.

haha making money on this stuff is difficult.

A friend of mine published his dissertation with a reputable company - he got his first royalty check this week --- 6 months of sales = $70. He gets something like three cents per copy.
 
Top