Top 10 Reassons Jesus is not God

[savagewind]

Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. They did not want to be gathered to the way, THE TRUTH, the life. So I should listen to them because if I don't I am a hater?

 

[catch22]

So, you operate on an altered version of the text. It's part of your dogmatic "training," as you put it, to not recognize the divine nature of Christ. Based on blatant changing of the text. Shall we discuss John 1:1?

You know what God says about changing His word, don't you?

The Matthew quote doesn't justify your repeated statements you refuse to hear the written testimony of their reaction. That somehow, their reaction is invalid, because they were against the One making the claim. It makes no sense. It's such a flimsy position to be in, I'm not sure how you continue to press the matter. I mean, don't believe them, believe the gospel writer who wrote their reactions. In this case John.

It's testimony. You either believe the testimony about Jesus' life, or you don't. So which is it?

 

[savagewind]

So, you operate on an altered version of the text. It's part of your dogmatic "training," as you put it, to not recognize the divine nature of Christ. Based on blatant changing of the text. Shall we discuss John 1:1?

You know what God says about changing His word, don't you?

The Matthew quote doesn't justify your repeated statements you refuse to hear the written testimony of their reaction. That somehow, their reaction is invalid, because they were against the One making the claim. It makes no sense. It's such a flimsy position to be in, I'm not sure how you continue to press the matter. I mean, don't believe them, believe the gospel writer who wrote their reactions. In this case John.

It's testimony. You either believe the testimony about Jesus' life, or you don't. So which is it?

I believe a person does not need an image of God. I have not joined either camp. I do not believe Jesus is God and I do not believe Jesus is not God. I am a firm believer in NOT debating The Nature Of God. I do not understand why people do. It's only words. Word won't change God. Many words will actually distance a person from God. That is what I believe.

Fyi I recognise the divine nature of Christ. Thank you for worrying about me, howbeit harshly, I think.

 

[catch22]

Back to the John 20:29 verse, 'blessed are those who have not seen yet still believe.' It's not about an image, is it? No one knows what Jesus really looks like, even if we try to guess with artwork. In addition, the physical and the spiritual are different -- we don't know what things look like on the other side, only that it will be far better than what we see and understand here.

As for debating the nature of God, the goal is never to change God, obviously, because we can't do that, so you are correct. But, the debate and the struggle is for the heart of the individuals, the creations of God, who as we know 'go this way and that way' and are easily led astray. No debate about it usually means no real thinking about it. And it is also true people can be distanced from God by harsh and critical words concerning Him and His nature. It's unfortunate, but what I believe is that if it is written on one's heart, they will always come back and always keep looking for God. That's sort of the nature of this board, no?

I have experienced intense scrutiny, judgment, and shunning by fellow believers. It doesn't keep me from God. If anything, it draws me closer. If someone loses heart so easily, they weren't ready yet anyhow. Alas, I try to avoid that outcome, though.

My wife often tells me I'm far too brash or harsh with my words. I work on it, I really do. We all have faults. I'm glad you recognized I care in all this... and I'm glad to know your actual belief on the matter finally.

 

[Muffled]

We should believe as the truth what the Jews said who had turned away from God? I do not think so.

I believe rejecting God and recognizing what Jesus was saying are two different things. I believe they at least deserve credit for recognizing what Jesus was saying when so many seem to have difficulty doing so.

 

[Muffled]

By saying he was one with God? Got anything else? I am one with my husband. I am one with my children. So? How many are there of us? ONE? LOL

No, not one. Six.

Is your husband God? i do not believe you are one with your husband. You will always have a different way of thinking and a different way of saying things an a different way of doing things.

 

[Muffled]

6. (5. in the video) Jesus does not have the same knowledge as the Father.

This wa based on whether Jesus would know the end of the world or not. He said not but only the Father knows.

The problem here is that there are two meanings of the word know. 1. is to have facts about 2. is to experience the events.

I believe Jesus will no longer exist in the body when the end of the world comes so he will not experience it (know it).

There are many passages where it is evident that Jesus does know what God knows. For instance He knows what is in a persons heart and only God can know that.

 

[savagewind]

Is your husband God? i do not believe you are one with your husband. You will always have a different way of thinking and a different way of saying things an a different way of doing things.

The Father and the son have a "different way of saying things".
Nahum 1:5
The mountains quake before him and the hills melt away. The earth trembles at his presence, the world and all who live in it.
Nahum 1:6
Who can withstand his indignation? Who can endure his fierce anger? His wrath is poured out like fire; the rocks are shattered before him.
Psalm 21:8-10 8Your hand will find out all your enemies; Your right hand will find out those who hate you. 9You will make them as a fiery oven in the time of your anger; The LORD will swallow them up in His wrath, And fire will devour them.10Their offspring You will destroy from the earth, And their descendants from among the sons of men.

 

[savagewind]

Each son of Adam is to be a temple of The Living God. The man Jesus did it perfectly. Not only did Jesus the son of Mary accept YHVH in him but he emptied himself, whereas we who accept The Christ in us are sharers with HIM. But Jesus Christ by emptying himself did not become a sharer but gave himself over to YHVH for YHVH to do God's will by him. Jesus was born a human and then at his baptism became GOD. He was not born God imho. But God dwelt in the temple that Mary bore when it became of age.

Do we not die at our baptism?

 

[Muffled]

The Father and the son have a "different way of saying things".
Nahum 1:5
The mountains quake before him and the hills melt away. The earth trembles at his presence, the world and all who live in it.
Nahum 1:6
Who can withstand his indignation? Who can endure his fierce anger? His wrath is poured out like fire; the rocks are shattered before him.
Psalm 21:8-10 8Your hand will find out all your enemies; Your right hand will find out those who hate you. 9You will make them as a fiery oven in the time of your anger; The LORD will swallow them up in His wrath, And fire will devour them.10Their offspring You will destroy from the earth, And their descendants from among the sons of men.

I believe this is something that is not obvious and one needs to know the Bible realy well to say whether it is so or not but I see nothing in the verses listed that would lead me to believe that thefather speaks differently from Jesus.

There is this verse:
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I say unto you I speak not from myself: but the Father abiding in me doeth his works.

 

[savagewind]

I believe this is something that is not obvious and one needs to know the Bible realy well to say whether it is so or not but I see nothing in the verses listed that would lead me to believe that thefather speaks differently from Jesus.

There is this verse:
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I say unto you I speak not from myself: but the Father abiding in me doeth his works.

Jesus speaks in quiet wisdom. The Father warns of God's vengeful wrath.

 

[Muffled]

Jesus speaks in quiet wisdom. The Father warns of God's vengeful wrath.

I believe I was under the impression that God was speaking in quiet wisdom when He wrote down the ten commandments, I believe Jesus warned of a day like the says of Noah.

 

[Muffled]

#6 (#5 in video) The Father knows more than Jesus but God knows eveerything.

The difference here is in the understanding of the word "know." It can mean understanding the facts or it can mean experiencing an event. When Jesus says He doesn't know what the Father knows in this case (Mat 24) He means that He will not experience it but the Father will. I believe that means that Jesus will no longer exist and the Spirit of God will be totally outside of a body again.

 

[metis]

#6 (#5 in video) The Father knows more than Jesus but God knows eveerything.

The difference here is in the understanding of the word "know." It can mean understanding the facts or it can mean experiencing an event. When Jesus says He doesn't know what the Father knows in this case (Mat 24) He means that He will not experience it but the Father will. I believe that means that Jesus will no longer exist and the Spirit of God will be totally outside of a body again.

That really doesn't work. For example, when asked when "the end of times" will be, and Jesus says that he doesn't know and only the Father knows for sure. This is by no means the only time Jesus differentiates himself from the Father.

 

[Muffled]

That really doesn't work. For example, when asked when "the end of times" will be, and Jesus says that he doesn't know and only the Father knows for sure. This is by no means the only time Jesus differentiates himself from the Father.

I believe there is a difference. Jesus is God in a body. The Father is God not in a body. Are you saying there is another verse about God knowing something that Jesus doesn't because I have never seen one?

 

[metis]

I believe there is a difference. Jesus is God in a body. The Father is God not in a body. Are you saying there is another verse about God knowing something that Jesus doesn't because I have never seen one?

Matt.5

1. [16] Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.
2. [45] so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
3. [48] You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Matt.6

1. [1] "Beware of practicing your piety before men in order to be seen by them; for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.
2. [4] so that your alms may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
3. [6] But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
4. [8] Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
5. [9] Pray then like this: Our Father who art in heaven,
   Hallowed be thy name.
6. [14] For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you;
7. [15] but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
8. [18] that your fasting may not be seen by men but by your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
9. [26] Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?
10. [32] For the Gentiles seek all these things; and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all.

Matt.7

1. [11] If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!
2. [21] "Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Matt.10

1. [32] So every one who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven;
2. [33] but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.

Matt.11

1. [25] At that time Jesus declared, "I thank thee, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to babes;
2. [26] yea, Father, for such was thy gracious will.
3. [27] All things have been delivered to me by my Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

Matt.12

1. [50] For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother, and sister, and mother."

Matt.15

1. [13] He answered, "Every plant which my heavenly Father has not planted will be rooted up.

Matt.16[17] And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.

Matt.23

1. [9] And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven...

Notice that God is always being referred to as a separate entity from God.

 

[savagewind]

Matt.5

1. [16] Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.
2. [45] so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
3. [48] You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Matt.6

1. [1] "Beware of practicing your piety before men in order to be seen by them; for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.
2. [4] so that your alms may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
3. [6] But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
4. [8] Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
5. [9] Pray then like this: Our Father who art in heaven,
   Hallowed be thy name.
6. [14] For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you;
7. [15] but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
8. [18] that your fasting may not be seen by men but by your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
9. [26] Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?
10. [32] For the Gentiles seek all these things; and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all.

Matt.7

1. [11] If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!
2. [21] "Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Matt.10

1. [32] So every one who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven;
2. [33] but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.

Matt.11

1. [25] At that time Jesus declared, "I thank thee, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to babes;
2. [26] yea, Father, for such was thy gracious will.
3. [27] All things have been delivered to me by my Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

Matt.12

1. [50] For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother, and sister, and mother."

Matt.15

1. [13] He answered, "Every plant which my heavenly Father has not planted will be rooted up.

Matt.16[17] And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.

Matt.23

1. [9] And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven...

Notice that God is always being referred to as a separate entity from himself.

Ya but, they all acknowledge that The Father God and the Son God are not the same. Three in one they say. It's like me keeping a secret from myself. That is what The Father does. I do not know why.

 

[catch22]

Ya but, they all acknowledge that The Father God and the Son God are not the same. Three in one they say. It's like me keeping a secret from myself. That is what The Father does. I do not know why.

What? You often do this... "It's like keeping a secret from myself." "Am I and my husband one?" "I'm not one with my children" etc.

Why do you compare the nature of God to yourself, always?

So because you aren't THE godhead, you can't fathom how such a scenario can exist? Also, do you think it's accurate to say the Father keeps secrets from the Son? Is that was Jesus was really saying in Matt 24?

 

[metis]

I think it is likely that the apostles believed that Jesus was of God but not God, but as the church became more gentile-run, the latter became prevalent.

 

[savagewind]

What? You often do this... "It's like keeping a secret from myself." "Am I and my husband one?" "I'm not one with my children" etc.

Why do you compare the nature of God to yourself, always?

So because you aren't THE godhead, you can't fathom how such a scenario can exist? Also, do you think it's accurate to say the Father keeps secrets from the Son? Is that was Jesus was really saying in Matt 24?

Probably not. I can compare humans with The God seeing that people are made in God's image. How, I do not know like you probably think you know. Maybe you know. I do not know.