Top Muslim Clerics in Canada Issue Fatwa Denouncing Terrorism

[Caladan]

Thanks a lot, this is my entire point and this what I am saying from the start. Thanks again for proving my point.

I see. so Muslims who have an essential different opinion from you are suddenly 'secularists' and 'westerners'. so much for the ideal of 'the Ummah' and 'unified Islam with no division'.

 

[Sahar]

I see. so Muslims who have an essential different opinion from you are suddenly 'secularists' and 'westerners'.

Dude, this group itself says that they adopt the secular system and principles.
From their About US page:

AIFD seeks to make a small contribution to the body of thought which articulates an understanding of Islamwhich separates religion and state and is in complete harmony with the U.S. Constitution and our citizenship pledge.
Through these founding principles of constitutional, secular (religious freedom free of theocracy and government coercion, and Islamic hegemony), AIFD would also serve as an example of an American Islamic institution which...

About US - American Islamic Forum for Democracy

Know your links first.

 

[England my lionheart]

Answer my question, if you don't mind. Adopting Islamic government is radical Islam?

!400 years ago to a Goat herder no,to me yes,and to Mr Abdul who i see regulary who likes secularism,Mr Abdul is a Muslim who votes in Britains elections and to him adopting Islamic Government is radical Islam which he rejects and objects to.

 

[Sahar]

!400 years ago to a Goat herder no,to me yes

Interesting, what's is your criteria for classifying anything as radical Islam?

 

[Caladan]

Dude, this group itself says that they adopt the secular system and principles.
From their About US page:
About US - American Islamic Forum for Democracy

Know your links first.

Again, in other words. you demonize them because you do not like what they have to say. the fact of the matter, is that these people have an alternative to your brand of Islam, and this simple fact makes all your high tales of no division in Islam, and 'the Ummah' fall apart like a deck of cards. on one hand you try to sell us stories of a unified hegemonic Islam, on the other hand you ridicule and dismiss other Muslims who do not match your version of religion. I hope im wrong in my concern that this thread is going in the direction that so many other threads have went, namely, 'these are not real Muslims', 'these are not real Christians'.

 

[Sahar]

Again, in other words. you demonize them because you do not like what they have to say. the fact of the matter, is that these people have an alternative to your brand of Islam, and this simple fact makes all your high tales of no division in Islam, and 'the Ummah' fall apart like a deck of cards. on one hand you try to sell us stories of a unified hegemonic Islam, on the other hand you ridicule and dismiss other Muslims who do not match your version of religion. I hope im wrong in my concern that this thread is going in the direction that so many other threads have went, namely, 'these are not real Muslims', 'these are not real Christians'.

So the American Islamic forum for democracy is not secular and doesn't adopt secular and Western values?!

 

[Caladan]

So the American Islamic forum for democracy is not secular and doesn't adopt secular and Western values?!

They live in America, are you saying its UnIslamic for them to respect the values of the west or their nation instead of resisting it? I have no quarrel with the fact that they respect secular realities, but your dismissal as 'secularists' or 'westerners' doesnt say much other than your refusal to acknowledge alternatives to your brand of dogma, an alternative which other MUSLIMS hold.

 

[Sahar]

They live in America, are you say its UnIslamic for them to respect the values of the west or their nation instead of resisting it? I have no quarrel with the fact that they respect secular realities, but your dismissal as 'secularists' or 'westerners' doesnt say much other than your refusal to acknowledge alternatives to your brand of dogma, which other MUSLIMS hold.

Hobbi, before posting your link, I expressed some thoughts then you posted that link that proved my thoughts. Just that. You blamed me for calling them secularists and as it appeared to you they are.

I see. so Muslims who have an essential different opinion from you are suddenly 'secularists' and 'westerners'.

 

[Caladan]

Hobbi, before posting your link, I expressed some thoughts then you posted that link that proved my thoughts. Just that. You blamed me for calling them secularists and as it appeared to you they are.

Are you denying that they are Muslims?

 

[Sahar]

If some Muslims want to adopt secular values, they are free and at least who work for an Islamic government should be given the chance to work through legal ways, but the fact is they are not given that chance in most of the Muslim countries due to the corrupt secular governments that oppresses the political life.

I am all for what the people choose. But the free formation of political groups and free voting are not provided.

 

[Sahar]

Are you denying that they are Muslims?

I just can't do this. However, secular ideas are clear kufr ideas.

 

[Caladan]

I just can't do this.

I know. it would be self defeating to the ideal vision of a one true Islam with no divisions. the reality is, that Islam, like all other religions is sectarian, it has many schools of thoughts, many political streams, eccentric groups, a fair share of domestic and foreign strife and conflict. the utopian vision of 'the Ummah' is poetic and can stimulate idealism, which in itself may not be bad, but its healthy to come to terms with reality and face the many everyday and political struggles that 'the Ummah' needs to deal with.
This isn't good or bad, it is simply a reality to fathom. I simply cannot appreciate people trying to sell me their ideals, I can respect ideals if its a self guidance to people, but not when people try to override reality with misplaced ideals.

 

[England my lionheart]

I just can't do this. However, secular ideas are clear kufr ideas.

Qutb does:
the Muslim community has long ago vanished from existence ... we can say that the Muslim community has been extinct for a few centuries, for this Muslim community does not denote the name of a land in which Islam resides, nor is it a people whose forefathers lived under the Islamic system at some earlier time. It is the name of a group of people whose manners, ideas and concepts, rules and regulations, values and criteria, are all derived from the Islamic source. The Muslim community with these characteristics vanished at the moment the laws of God became suspended on earth. [p.9]
Our whole environment, people's beliefs and ideas, habits and art, rules and laws -- is Jahiliyyah, even to the extent that what we consider to be Islamic culture, Islamic sources, Islamic philosophy and Islamic thought are also constructs of Jahiliyyah! [p.20]
not that they believe in other deities besides God or because they worship anyone other than God, but [that] their way of life is not based on submission to God alone. Although they believe in the Unity of God, still they have relegated the legislative attribute of God to others and submit to this authority. [p.82]

 

[Sahar]

I know. it would be self defeating to the ideal vision of a one true Islam with no divisions. the reality is, that Islam, like all other religions is sectarian, it has many schools of thoughts, many political streams, eccentric groups, a fair share of domestic and foreign strife and conflict. the utopian vision of 'the Ummah' is poetic and can stimulate idealism, which in itself may not be bad, but its healthy to come to terms with reality and face the many everyday and political struggles that 'the Ummah' needs to deal with.
This isn't good or bad, it is simply a reality to fathom. I simply cannot appreciate people trying to sell me their ideals, I can respect ideals if its a self guidance to people, but not when people try to override reality with misplaced ideals.

Nope, there is good and bad, there is halal and haram, there is Islam and kufr. Actually Caladan, you are equating the reality with your secular liberal views or the Western secularism or the Western reality. This is not the reality to me or to my Muslim country. The reality is my government is a tyrant corrupt one which adopts secularism at least in the political and economic fields. My government throw its political opponents in prisons especially the Islamic ones. The reality is Muslim Brotherhood enjoy public acceptance in a country like mine.
The reality is most Muslims believes in an Islamic state that is ruled by Islamic Shari'a. The fact is Hamas was legally democratically elected by the Palestinians. Even in Turkey, the ruling political group has its Islamic political roots.

No respected Islamic schools adopted secularism. Secularism is against Allah and His Shari'a.

The Western reality is not my reality nor the Muslim reality.

 

[Sahar]

Qutb does:
the Muslim community has long ago vanished from existence ... we can say that the Muslim community has been extinct for a few centuries, for this Muslim community does not denote the name of a land in which Islam resides, nor is it a people whose forefathers lived under the Islamic system at some earlier time. It is the name of a group of people whose manners, ideas and concepts, rules and regulations, values and criteria, are all derived from the Islamic source. The Muslim community with these characteristics vanished at the moment the laws of God became suspended on earth. [p.9]
Our whole environment, people's beliefs and ideas, habits and art, rules and laws -- is Jahiliyyah, even to the extent that what we consider to be Islamic culture, Islamic sources, Islamic philosophy and Islamic thought are also constructs of Jahiliyyah! [p.20]
not that they believe in other deities besides God or because they worship anyone other than God, but [that] their way of life is not based on submission to God alone. Although they believe in the Unity of God, still they have relegated the legislative attribute of God to others and submit to this authority. [p.82]

And?
What about my last question to you?

Interesting, what's is your criteria for classifying anything as radical Islam?

 

[Caladan]

Nope, there is good and bad, there is halal and haram, there is Islam and kufr. Actually Caladan, you are equating the reality with your secular liberal views or the Western secularism or the Western reality. This is not the reality to me or to my Muslim country. The reality is my government is a tyrant corrupt one which adopts secularism at least in the political and economic fields. My government throw its political opponents in prisons especially the Islamic ones. The reality is Muslim Brotherhood enjoy public acceptance in a country like mine.
The reality is most Muslims believes in an Islamic state that is ruled by Islamic Shari'a. The fact is Hamas was legally democratically elected by the Palestinians. Even in Turkey, the ruling political group has its Islamic political roots.

No respected Islamic schools adopted secularism. Secularism is against Allah and His Shari'a.

The Western reality is not my reality nor the Muslim reality.

On many levels you are correct. no one is expecting many layers of Muslim societies to adopt liberalism or secularism en masse, something which I believe I already said a few posts previously.
however there are also levels of religiosity within Muslim societies and political spheres. given many of the trends 'on the street' may be at odds with western democracy, others try to come to terms with western realities, in Turkey, the military is the guardian of secular realities, even the most radical Islamic regimes, like the Iranian government which despite having laws inspired by the Sharia, maintain western political elements within its system out of the necessity of reality. perhaps a default 'if it aint broke dont fix it'.

 

[England my lionheart]

Originally Posted by not4me
Interesting, what's is your criteria for classifying anything as radical Islam?

Qutb says it best but radical Islam is only radical to say me or Mr Abdul,to a revivalist such as Qutb its Islam as it should be and although i absolutely disagree on his views i actually understand his reasoning.

 

[England my lionheart]

I have to go to that big bad Jahili city called London now but hope to get back soon,thats if you are still awake Not4me

 

[Sahar]

On many levels you are correct. no one is expecting many layers of Muslim societies to adopt liberalism or secularism en masse, something which I believe I already said a few posts previously.
however there are also levels of religiosity within Muslim societies and political spheres. given many of the trends 'on the street' may be at odds with western democracy, others try to come to terms with western realities, in Turkey, the military is the guardian of secular realities, even the most radical Islamic regimes, like the Iranian government which despite having laws inspired by the Sharia, maintain western political elements within its system out of the necessity of reality. perhaps a default 'if it aint broke dont fix it'.

What the Iranian regimes maintain are only procedures or reulations (I don't know what is the appropriate word to use) just like the traffic systems ...etc, I mean the ideological basis is completely different from a Western one and different in some aspects from a Sunni one too.

Of course in our modern reality, there are different considerations than 1000 years ago but basically Islam is able to interact with the different changes and without dismissing any of its principles.

I also don't deny that there are some Muslims who are impressed by the liberal Western values and systems especially after the Western colonization of many Muslim countries that introduced the liberal ideas to our societies which became westernized in most of its fields and this is what someone like the martyr Hassan Al Banna found and through his ideas, preaching and group, he aimed to re-awaken the comprehensive Islamic view among the Muslim community especially youth.

 

[Caladan]

What the Iranian regimes maintain are only procedures or reulations (I don't know what is the appropriate word to use) just like the traffic systems ...etc, I mean the ideological basis is completely different from a Western one and different in some aspects from a Sunni one too.

That is only part of the picture, of course the western element might stretch to the technical sphere, like traffic system, but that is not what I was aiming at. Oxford scholars wisely point in the discourse of Sharia implementation, that even the most 'hardcore' regimes of the Muslim world, do not implement full Sharia and compromise with western elements, even within their parliament structure, out of sheer realism.

Of course in our modern reality, there are different considerations than 1000 years ago but basically Islam is able to interact with the different changes and without dismissing any of its principles.

That is an optimistic look. but what changes in specific are you referring to?

I also don't deny that there are some Muslims who are impressed by the liberal Western values and systems especially after the Western colonization of many Muslim countries that introduced the liberal ideas to our societies which became westernized in most of its fields and this is what someone like the martyr Hassan Al Banna found and through his ideas, preaching and group, he aimed to re-awaken the comprehensive Islamic view among the Muslim community especially youth.

*nods*