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Torath Mosheh / Orthodox Judaism - The History of Terah and his family

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
@GoodAttention Asked:
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Ehav4Ever's Response: This thread will be used to discuss your questions above. I will start out by posting numerous sources from Mizrahi Jewish, Yemenite Jewish, Sephardic Jews, Orthodox Jewish, Hasidic Jewish, Heriedi Jewish, and Asian Jewish sources. Bfore this begins it is important to note the distinction between what is defined as "idolotry" in ancient Jewish sources.

The term used in those sources is Avodah Zara.

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Here is a video I did that discusses one group of ideas about Avodah Zara and its history. The sources for this video are Mishnah Torah and text called Sefer Hayashar. There are a few other perspectives that are included. I will provide sources from others in future posts.

 

GoodAttention

Well-Known Member
@GoodAttention Asked:
View attachment 94438

Ehav4Ever's Response: This thread will be used to discuss your questions above. I will start out by posting numerous sources from Mizrahi Jewish, Yemenite Jewish, Sephardic Jews, Orthodox Jewish, Hasidic Jewish, Heriedi Jewish, and Asian Jewish sources. Bfore this begins it is important to note the distinction between what is defined as "idolotry" in ancient Jewish sources.

The term used in those sources is Avodah Zara.

View attachment 94439

Here is a video I did that discusses one group of ideas about Avodah Zara and its history. The sources for this video are Mishnah Torah and text called Sefer Hayashar. There are a few other perspectives that are included. I will provide sources from others in future posts.


Thanks for starting this thread and providing the video link.

I think this question about idols and idolatry will come down to myself arguing the Written Torah, and yourself and others arguing the Oral Torah.

At the time of Terah we can only attest to two of the Noahide Laws, being not to eat from a live animal with blood, and to establish systems of justice as man should not shed another man's blood.

Hence what we will be discussing is "what is righteousness?", is the message and morality within the Written Torah perfect, and if so what does the Oral Torah provide? I have already concluded the opinion of individuals who determine the Abram did not bury his father, a history viewed correct by the Oral Torah, as flimsy. Therefore, if you take no offence to me attempting with vigour to break apart any position of morality championed that I glare at as morally porous then let us debate!
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
I think this question about idols and idolatry will come down to myself arguing the Written Torah, and yourself and others arguing the Oral Torah.
Actually, it will come down to myself and others stating what both the written "Hebrew" Torah and the Oral state. Because of the fact that there is no way to know what ancient Hebrew meant w/o first learning Hebrew, which came from oral Torah, i.e. the vowels, meaning of words, grammer, and spellings are all not apprent in the written Torah. It is only with an oral Torah can anyone know what those elements even are. Also, even in the written Torah an Oral Torah is indentified as the method for any Jew know what the written Torah means, because on the written Torah "In Hebrew" the Oral Torah proceeded there being a wrtten text.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
At the time of Terah we can only attest to two of the Noahide Laws, being not to eat from a live animal with blood, and to establish systems of justice as man should not shed another man's blood.
Actually, in the Hebrew text all of them can be attested to. Again, be aware that according to Jewish sources most of the 7 Mitzvoth / Noachide Law were given to Adam from the start. Yet, it requires someone to know what the Hebrew text states and what it means:

#1 Not to do Avodah Zara based on Beresheeth (Gen.)2:16
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#2 Establish courts and laws based on Beresheeth (Gen.) 2:16 and 18:19
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#3 Do not curse Hashem based on Beresheeth (Gen.) 2:16
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#4 Do not have phyiscal relationships with particular family members and also another man's wife based on Beresheeth (Gen.) 2:24, 20:3, and 20:12.
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#5 Do not shed blood / murder based on Beresheeth (Gen.) 2:16 and 9:5-7
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#6 Do not rob / kidnap based on Beresheeth (Gen.) 34:2-31
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#7 Do not eat from a living animal based on Beresheeth (Gen.) 9:3-4
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GoodAttention

Well-Known Member
Actually, in the Hebrew text all of them can be attested to. Again, be aware that according to Jewish sources most of the 7 Mitzvoth / Noachide Law were given to Adam from the start. Yet, it requires someone to know what the Hebrew text states and what it means:

#1 Not to do Avodah Zara based on Beresheeth (Gen.)2:16
View attachment 94470

#2 Establish courts and laws based on Beresheeth (Gen.) 2:16 and 18:19
View attachment 94471

#3 Do not curse Hashem based on Beresheeth (Gen.) 2:16
View attachment 94472

#4 Do not have phyiscal relationships with particular family members and also another man's wife based on Beresheeth (Gen.) 2:24, 20:3, and 20:12.
View attachment 94466
View attachment 94468
View attachment 94467

#5 Do not shed blood / murder based on Beresheeth (Gen.) 2:16 and 9:5-7
View attachment 94465

#6 Do not rob / kidnap based on Beresheeth (Gen.) 34:2-31
View attachment 94469

#7 Do not eat from a living animal based on Beresheeth (Gen.) 9:3-4
View attachment 94464

You have put me in a very difficult place because as you say

(1) The written Torah has no "real" value to a person who cannot read Hebrew
(2) To understand the written Torah one needs to be aware and informed of the oral Torah
(3) The result therefore being that, whilst the written Torah *could* have a "literary" meaning, this meaning should only be considered through the interpretation of a person could be considered an expert in the oral Torah, given this is required to interpret Hebrew AND

(4) Most importantly, the person who wrote the Torah did so knowing that it would be interpreted "correctly" by those knowledgable in the oral Torah.

Since I cannot give any argument or rebuttal to these rules that even I wouldn't consider antisemitism, I don't believe there is much to discuss here.

However, keeping with these rules, why don't we go back to the question did Abraham bury his father, and what does the oral Torah say about this?
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
You have put me in a very difficult place because as you say
(3) The result therefore being that, whilst the written Torah *could* have a "literary" meaning, this meaning should only be considered through the interpretation of a person could be considered an expert in the oral Torah, given this is required to interpret Hebrew AND
Think of it this way. You read an English translation, right? How did the translator know what the words meant? Where did their understanding of the grammer come from? How did they know when a sentence starts and in ends when in ancient their was no punciation marks? Further, how does one translate ideas from a culture that is thousands of years and geophrically seprated from Western English culture?

Thus, your translator has uased oral sources, that he / she did not inform you about in the process of translation. A non-Jew trying to translate a Jewish text has only one starting point in a text that does not come from his culture. He starts with what we Jews say about the langauge and grammer. The oldest written account of ancient Hebrew defintions and grammer comes from the Talmuds. The Talmuds written in Hebrew and Aramaic. Thus, the only way to know these sources for the original Christian translators was to learn some of the Talmud and then create their dictionaries and lexicons based on what we Jews already knew about our langauge.

Thus, by reading a translation you have already entered into the Oral Torah because what you are reading is not the original text and the translation you have is a Christian interpretation of the language and culture of us Jews.
 

GoodAttention

Well-Known Member
Think of it this way. You read an English translation, right? How did the translator know what the words meant? Where did their understanding of the grammer come from? How did they know when a sentence starts and in ends when in ancient their was no punciation marks? Further, how does one translate ideas from a culture that is thousands of years and geophrically seprated from Western English culture?

Thus, your translator has uased oral sources, that he / she did not inform you about in the process of translation. A non-Jew trying to translate a Jewish text has only one starting point in a text that does not come from his culture. He starts with what we Jews say about the langauge and grammer. The oldest written account of ancient Hebrew defintions and grammer comes from the Talmuds. The Talmuds written in Hebrew and Aramaic. Thus, the only way to know these sources for the original Christian translators was to learn some of the Talmud and then create their dictionaries and lexicons based on what we Jews already knew about our langauge.

Thus, by reading a translation you have already entered into the Oral Torah because what you are reading is not the original text and the translation you have is a Christian interpretation of the language and culture of us Jews.
I am saying I understand I have limitations, I am speaking from a personal reference point. Until you are willing to translate the Hebrew texts into English for me it is difficult to discuss any point.

However, should you want to discuss the question about what is in the written Torah versus oral Torah about Terah and whether Abram buried him I am more than happy to.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
I am saying I understand I have limitations, I am speaking from a personal reference point. Until you are willing to translate the Hebrew texts into English for me it is difficult to discuss any point.

However, should you want to discuss the question about what is in the written Torah versus oral Torah about Terah and whether Abram buried him I am more than happy to.
I know, but I always start off that way because I have found w/o showing the text people end arguing over translations rather the the actual texts. Now that this has been established I can discuss things by both showing the text and translating. Yet, be aware that this takes time. Thus, let's deal with one issue close it and then move on to the next because writing a translation based on the original takes time.
 

GoodAttention

Well-Known Member
I know, but I always start off that way because I have found w/o showing the text people end arguing over translations rather the the actual texts. Now that this has been established I can discuss things by both showing the text and translating. Yet, be aware that this takes time. Thus, let's deal with one issue close it and then move on to the next because writing a translation based on the original takes time.

Based on what you have said, Beresheet 2:16 is the verse to consider.

I thank you.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Based on what you have said, Beresheet 2:16 is the verse to consider.

I thank you.
Just be aware that before there was a written Torah, Hashem gave everything orally to Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses). Mosheh then taught the people of Israel orally. The written text only came about after there was already oral information transmitted. Further, since the Oral Torah has been a living transmission through much discussion, teaching, debate, and consideration in living breathing Israeli / Jewish communities for thousands of years it means that the written text is like the Cliff Notes and the Oral Torah is what is between the lines.
 

GoodAttention

Well-Known Member
Just be aware that before there was a written Torah, Hashem gave everything orally to Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses). Mosheh then taught the people of Israel orally.
If God taught Moses, and Moses taught the people, then I must be a Pharoah...

The written text only came about after there was already oral information transmitted. Further, since the Oral Torah has been a living transmission through much discussion, teaching, debate, and consideration in living breathing Israeli / Jewish communities for thousands of years it means that the written text is like the Cliff Notes and the Oral Torah is what is between the lines.

Let me reassure you that any opinion or interpretation I have of the written scriptures takes zero consideration into the history of the language or the Jewish people. I do not pretend to know better than what you and your people have already established as doctrine.

Therefore my views are, for lack of a better word, Pagan only, and I accept that wholeheartedly. However, I will not apologize for any conclusion I come to where I defend my interpretation of the translated scripture, definition of monotheism, what is and is not considered righteousness, and the accepted historical timeline of our Earth, its peoples, chosen, pagan, or otherwise, and any events that have transpired.

Such events include the African Humid Period, the desertification of the Sahara and Arabian deserts, the Maximum Glacial period and its relationship to the rising of sea levels over 20,000 years, the flooding of the Perian Gulf, and the 4.2kiloyear event to name but a handful.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
If God taught Moses, and Moses taught the people, then I must be a Pharoah...
Actually, what I stated was Hashem taught Mosheh orally, through what we call nevuah. Mosheh taught the entire "Israeli / Jewish people." There are Jewish sources that explain it this way.
  1. For every mitzvah, Hashem taught Mosheh the basic mitzvah and the application and explaination.
  2. Mosheh then took everything he was taught about each mitzvah and within specific times taught his brother Aharon (Aaron) one on one.
  3. Then Aharon sat next to Mosheh and Aharon's son's would come to learn exactly what Mosheh taught Aharon.
  4. They would then sit next to Mosheh and Aharon, and then the Levites would come and learn the exact same thing.
  5. Then the same process would repeated with the leaders of the Israeli people.
  6. Then the process was repeated for any regular Israeli who wanted to learn it directly.
  7. Then those who learned in the above process would take what they learned and teach other Israelis / Jews.
This is what was taking place for 40 years in the desert. Thus, there was a lot of repetition and putting into practice. There was a lot of discussion and debate, and there was a sitaution where the younger generation was brought in a process of deep learning that continues to this day in Torah based Jewish communities.

No concerning you being a Pharaoh. Whether you are or not I wouldn't know. Since the term, for Jews means someone who is a leader of a certain type of Egyptian society only you would know if that is actually what you are a part of. I guess your family would also know. ;)
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
However, I will not apologize for any conclusion I come to where I defend my interpretation of the translated scripture, definition of monotheism, what is and is not considered righteousness, and the accepted historical timeline of our Earth, its peoples, chosen, pagan, or otherwise, and any events that have transpired.
There is no need to apologize. Again, you have your "interpetations" that is not for me to deconstruct. You are asking questions and I am simply giving you answer from a) The Hebrew text and b) the Oral Torah that Hashem gave to us Jews. There is no requirement for you to accept either one. ;)
 

GoodAttention

Well-Known Member
Actually, what I stated was Hashem taught Mosheh orally, through what we call nevuah. Mosheh taught the entire "Israeli / Jewish people." There are Jewish sources that explain it this way.
  1. For every mitzvah, Hashem taught Mosheh the basic mitzvah and the application and explaination.
  2. Mosheh then took everything he was taught about each mitzvah and within specific times taught his brother Aharon (Aaron) one on one.
  3. Then Aharon sat next to Mosheh and Aharon's son's would come to learn exactly what Mosheh taught Aharon.
  4. They would then sit next to Mosheh and Aharon, and then the Levites would come and learn the exact same thing.
  5. Then the same process would repeated with the leaders of the Israeli people.
  6. Then the process was repeated for any regular Israeli who wanted to learn it directly.
  7. Then those who learned in the above process would take what they learned and teach other Israelis / Jews.
This is what was taking place for 40 years in the desert. Thus, there was a lot of repetition and putting into practice. There was a lot of discussion and debate, and there was a sitaution where the younger generation was brought in a process of deep learning that continues to this day in Torah based Jewish communities.

No concerning you being a Pharaoh. Whether you are or not I wouldn't know. Since the term, for Jews means someone who is a leader of a certain type of Egyptian society only you would know if that is actually what you are a part of. I guess your family would also know. ;)
It was my attempt to make a joke only, when Moses is Elohim to Pharoah via Aaron.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Now concerning Terah: This is what Rabbi Mosheh ben-Maimon (1138–1204 CE) states in the Mishnah Torah.

During the times of Enosh, mankind made a great mistake, and the wise men of that generation gave thoughtless counsel. Enosh himself was one of those who erred.
Their mistake was as follows: They said Hashem created stars and spheres with which to control the world. He placed them on high and treated them with honor, making them servants who minister before Him. Accordingly, it is fitting to praise and glorify them and to treat them with honor. [They perceived] this to be the will of Hashem, blessed be He, that they magnify and honor those whom He magnified and honored, just as a king desires that the servants who stand before him be honored. Indeed, doing so is an expression of honor to the king.
After conceiving of this notion, they began to construct temples to the stars and offer sacrifices to them. They would praise and glorify them with words, and prostrate themselves before them, because by doing so, they would - according to their false conception - be fulfilling the will of Hashem.
This was the essence of the worship of false Hashems, and this was the rationale of those who worshiped them. They would not say that there is no other Hashem except for this star.
This message was conveyed by Jeremiah, who declared (10:7-8): "Who will not fear You, King of the nations, for to You it is fitting. Among all the wise men of the nations and in all their kingdoms, there is none like You. They have one foolish and senseless [notion. They conceive of their] empty teachings as wood;" i.e., all know that You alone are Hashem. Their foolish error consists of conceiving of this emptiness as Your will.
After many years passed, there arose people - false prophets - who told [their nations] that Hashem had commanded them to say: Serve this star - or all the stars - sacrifice to it, offer libations to it, build a temple for it and make an image of it so that all people - including the women, the children, and the common people - could bow to it.
He would inform them of a form that he had conceived, and tell them that this is the image of the particular star, claiming that this was revealed to him in a prophetic vision. In this manner, the people began to make images in temples, under trees, and on the tops of mountains and hills.
People would gather together and bow down to them and the [false prophets] would say: This image is the source of benefit or harm. It is appropriate to serve it and fear it. Their priests would tell them: This service will enable you to multiply and be successful. Do this and this, or do not do this or this.
Subsequently, other deceivers arose and declared that a specific star, sphere, or angel had spoken to them and commanded them: Serve me in this manner. He would then relate a mode of service [telling them:] Do this, do not do this.
Thus, these practices spread throughout the world. People would serve images with strange practices - one more distorted than the other - offer sacrifices to them, and bow down to them. As the years passed, [Hashem's] glorious and awesome name was forgotten by the entire population. [It was no longer part of] their speech or thought, and they no longer knew Him. Thus, all the common people, the women, and the children would know only the image of wood or stone and the temples of stone to which they were trained from their childhood to bow down and serve, and in whose name they swore.
The wise men among them would think that there is no Hashem other than the stars and spheres for whose sake, and in resemblance of which, they had made these images. The Eternal Rock was not recognized or known by anyone in the world, with the exception of a [few] individuals: for example, Chanoch, Metushelach, Noach, Shem, and Ever. The world continued in this fashion until the pillar of the world - the Patriarch Abraham - was born.
After this mighty man was weaned, he began to explore and think. Though he was a child, he began to think [incessantly] throughout the day and night, wondering: How is it possible for the sphere to continue to revolve without having anyone controlling it? Who is causing it to revolve? Surely, it does not cause itself to revolve.
He had no teacher, nor was there anyone to inform him. Rather, he was mired in Ur Kasdim among the foolish idolaters. His father, mother, and all the people [around him] were idol worshipers, and he would worship with them. [However,] his heart was exploring and [gaining] understanding.
Ultimately, he appreciated the way of truth and understood the path of righteousness through his accurate comprehension. He realized that there was one Hashem who controlled the sphere, that He created everything, and that there is no other Hashem among all the other entities. He knew that the entire world was making a mistake. What caused them to err was their service of the stars and images, which made them lose awareness of the truth.
Abraham was forty years old when he became aware of his Creator. When he recognized and knew Him, he began to formulate replies to the inhabitants of Ur Kasdim and debate with them, telling them that they were not following a proper path.
He broke their idols and began to teach the people that it is fitting to serve only the Hashem of the world. To Him [alone] is it fitting to bow down, sacrifice, and offer libations, so that the people of future [generations] would recognize Him. [Conversely,] it is fitting to destroy and break all the images, lest all the people err concerning them, like those people who thought that there are no other Hashems besides these [images].
When he overcame them through the strength of his arguments, the king desired to kill him. He was [saved through] a miracle and left for Charan. [There,] he began to call in a loud voice to all people and inform them that there is one Hashem in the entire world and it is proper to serve Him. He would go out and call to the people, gathering them in city after city and country after country, until he came to the land of Canaan - proclaiming [Hashem's existence the entire time] - as [Genesis 21:33] states: "And He called there in the name of the Lord, the eternal Hashem."
 
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Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Based on what you have said, Beresheet 2:16 is the verse to consider.

I thank you.
So, considering just Beresheeth 2:16:

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Further to the above, the following site gives some additional insight into the perspective that is held in numerous Jewish sources.

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