Torath Mosheh / Orthodox Judaism - The History of Terah and his family

[Ehav4Ever]

So to confirm there is conflicting interpretation as to whether the verse refers to 3 or 7 of the Noahide Laws?

No. According to a few sources it is cosnidered that there were 6 given to Adam, a restatement of several of them with Noach, and an addition with Noach. Another opinion is that all 7 were given to Adam and the restatement with Noach was due to him needed to restate humanity, and the ones not mentioned were already a given to him.

 

[GoodAttention]

No. According to a few sources it is cosnidered that there were 6 given to Adam, a restatement of several of them with Noach, and an addition with Noach. Another opinion is that all 7 were given to Adam and the restatement with Noach was due to him needed to restate humanity, and the ones not mentioned were already a given to him.

I am not wanting to be pedantic here, but if I am it is because you wrote "...each of the words in the above statement are referencing three of 7 mitzvoth".

I am curious to understand this interpretation and what is being referenced.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I am not wanting to be pedantic here, but if I am it is because you wrote "...each of the words in the above statement are referencing three of 7 mitzvoth".

I am curious to understand this interpretation and what is being referenced.

Often the debate between Jews on topics like this is what are the sources for what we already know to be true. I.e. do we get it from here in the Tanakh or do we get from there in the Tanakh.

1. There is a view that we learn about the details of the 7 mitzvoth, directly in the written Torah, from all of the pasages I listed. Yet, in the same viewmost of the rest were already known to Adam though not directly referenced in that particular part of the Torah. I.e. they are refereced in the the other ones I showed. Kind of like saying that when Cain killed his brother, he already knew that murder was wrong because he learned the mitzvah against murder from Adam, but we don't learn about the details of the mitzvah from that part of the Torah. As a part of that view Adam received 6 mitzvoth and the 7th was given after the flood.
2. There is another view that we learn from the first passage listed, and the passages following it. In this view different words and statements in Genesis 2 let us know that Adam had all 7 from the start.

In short, both view points agree that there are 7 mitzvoth that Hashem gave to the world, before the giving of the Torah at Mount Sinai. The debate is how do we derived/extrapulate them from the written text of the Torah, from here or from there. There is a further discussion that deals with how when start with the 7, you can extrapulate 33 or 66 mitzvoth from the 7.
.

 

[GoodAttention]

Often the debate between Jews on topics like this is what are the sources for what we already know to be true. I.e. do we get it from here in the Tanakh or do we get from there in the Tanakh.

1. There is a view that we learn about the details of the 7 mitzvoth, directly in the written Torah, from all of the pasages I listed. Yet, in the same viewmost of the rest were already known to Adam though not directly referenced in that particular part of the Torah. I.e. they are refereced in the the other ones I showed. Kind of like saying that when Cain killed his brother, he already knew that murder was wrong because he learned the mitzvah against murder from Adam, but we don't learn about the details of the mitzvah from that part of the Torah. As a part of that view Adam received 6 mitzvoth and the 7th was given after the flood.

Regarding this view, can you tell me which is the 7th mitzvah that is being talked about after the flood?

1. There is another view that we learn from the first passage listed, and the passages following it. In this view different words and statements in Genesis 2 let us know that Adam had all 7 from the start.

In short, both view points agree that there are 7 mitzvoth that Hashem gave to the world, before the giving of the Torah at Mount Sinai.

I can agree to an extent with this, but I don't understand what you mean by "to the world"?

At this point I would need to ask your view on how Genesis describes the history of mankind, i.e. does it begin with Adam, or before Adam?

The debate is how do we derived/extrapulate them from the written text of the Torah, from here or from there. There is a further discussion that deals with how when start with the 7, you can extrapulate 33 or 66 mitzvoth from the 7.
.

This is the "braiding" of the Jewish identity, so to speak, from these laws, which I appreciate as an external observer as your pejorative. The separation if you will of the "Sinaides" from the "Noahides".

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Regarding this view, can you tell me which is the 7th mitzvah that is being talked about after the flood?

Not eating an animal while it is alive.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I can agree to an extent with this, but I don't understand what you mean by "to the world"?

The 7 mitzvoth are considered to to be the baseline of humanity. I.e. all humans are supposed to hold by the 7 mitzvoth as a part of being human. Because they were given to Adam and eventually Noach and his sons, it is considered to be imcumbant on all humanity, thus the world.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

At this point I would need to ask your view on how Genesis describes the history of mankind, i.e. does it begin with Adam, or before Adam?

There are midrashim that claim that there were generations before Adam. Adam being the version of humanity that we exist as. One number is given that there were more 900 generations befoe Adam that lived and disappeared from history. The midrash may not be saying there were specifically 900, but just that there was something befoe Adam and Hawwah (Eve). There is also a place in one Jewish text where they describe what appears to be dinasour bones

Thus, with this a Jew can speculate what that means in light of actual historical / scientific findings.

Here is a bit of information I did in a video that covers this topic.

Also, this

Jewish Views on Dinosaurs | Sefaria

An examination of the question “What’s Jewish about dinosaurs?”

www.sefaria.org.il

 

[Ehav4Ever]

This is the "braiding" of the Jewish identity, so to speak, from these laws, which I appreciate as an external observer as your pejorative. The separation if you will of the "Sinaides" from the "Noahides".

Just consider like the dvisions in any military. You could have Army, Navy, Air-Force, Marines, and other specialized units in between. Each has their mission specialty and all have their importance.

 

[GoodAttention]

Just consider like the dvisions in any military. You could have Army, Navy, Air-Force, Marines, and other specialized units in between. Each has their mission specialty and all have their importance.

And who would be the Commander-in-Chief with the "red button" to unleash Armageddon, Moses? (I ask in jest)

 

[GoodAttention]

So, considering just Beresheeth 2:16:

View attachment 94488
Further to the above, the following site gives some additional insight into the perspective that is held in numerous Jewish sources.

View attachment 94490
View attachment 94489

There is no need to apologize. Again, you have your "interpetations" that is not for me to deconstruct. You are asking questions and I am simply giving you answer from a) The Hebrew text and b) the Oral Torah that Hashem gave to us Jews. There is no requirement for you to accept either one.

Thank you kindly.

Regarding Beresheeth 2:23, are the translations correct when they say "The man said", meaning it was not God speaking but Adam.

Regarding Beresheeth 2:24, who is speaking here?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

And who would be the Commander-in-Chief with the "red button" to unleash Armageddon, Moses? (I ask in jest)

We Jews don't have a concept of unleashing an Armageddon. (I say in jest) We have a concept that the world saves itself and does better because people want it.

 

[YoursTrue]

The 7 mitzvoth are considered to to be the baseline of humanity. I.e. all humans are supposed to hold by the 7 mitzvoth as a part of being human. Because they were given to Adam and eventually Noach and his sons, it is considered to be imcumbant on all humanity, thus the world.

As we have discussed vaguely about this, what do you think will happen to someone or those that do not abide by the 7 mitzvoth? Or, taken another way, those that do abide by those 7 mizvoths? (any idea?)

 

[YoursTrue]

We Jews don't have a concept of unleashing an Armageddon. (I say in jest) We have a concept that the world saves itself and does better because people want it.

(Doesn't look like it's happening, though...in the positive sense, does it?)

 

[YoursTrue]

P.S. I know Rambam taught about a resurrection...

 

[Ehav4Ever]

As we have discussed vaguely about this, what do you think will happen to someone or those that do not abide by the 7 mitzvoth? Or, taken another way, those that do abide by those 7 mizvoths? (any idea?)

In short, the approach we Jews have is - Hashem will work that out with the nations. We are not in charge of the judgements of Hashem on that level.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

(Doesn't look like it's happening, though...in the positive sense, does it?)

It depends how you view people. There are a lot of people in the world doing good things that help progress or save the world. It is sometimes of matter looking and recognizing the good.

 

[YoursTrue]

It depends how you view people. There are a lot of people in the world doing good things that help progress or save the world. It is sometimes of matter looking and recognizing the good.

OK. Now just wondering if a male person wants to become a Jew does he have to get circumcized?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

OK. Now just wondering if a male person wants to become a Jew does he have to get circumcized?

If the rabbis working with him accepted him for the process of course he would. At least for Torah based Jews / Orthodox Jews.

 

[YoursTrue]

If the rabbis working with him accepted him for the process of course he would. At least for Torah based Jews / Orthodox Jews.

So then God would decide if a male would be approved by God and not by men if a Gentile man doesn't get circumcized. Would the group (or sect) you belong to accept an uncircumcized male as a convert to Judaism?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

So then God would decide if a male would be approved by God and not by men if a Gentile man doesn't get circumcized. Would the group (or sect) you belong to accept an uncircumcized male as a convert to Judaism?

I don't belong to a sect or a group. If a non-Jew were to decide that they want to take on the Torah that was given and Mount Sinai, as Hashem gave it, and also connect himself / herself to the Jewish people the way it has been done for thousands of years by others who successfully did so, then in many Torah based / Orthodox Jewish communities there is a path for that.

Because Hashem gave a mitzvah to Torah based Jews, which we call Brith Milah for males, of course any potential convert to Torath Mosheh would have use Avraham ben-Terahh as his / her example to do so. Thus, of course before they complete the conversion process they would need to undergo a Brith Milah.

Because there is no requirement for the non-Jewish world to become Jewish, there is no requirement for a non-Jew to seek that out lness they compelled themselves to take up the path of Torah.