Toronto couple raises their children gender-neutral

[blackout]

The whole point of raising kids is to make choices for your children.

The whole point of raising kids is to aide/mentor/guide them
in the fine ART of making choices for ThemSelves.

"Know ThySelf" and "To Thine Own Self Be True".


I was born on the wrong planet.

 

[Barcode]

I can explain. The idea that children are little blobs of play-dough to be molded into the form we desire is reprehensible to me. The comment that the "whole point" of having children is to make their decisions for them is deeply disturbing. It may sometimes be necessary to make decisions for children - for example, drawing the line at "ice cream for supper" - but is it really the whole point of having children?

Well if someone asked me to elaborate, it would've made more sense. First off, children cannot make independent decisions for themselves, at least not until the age of independency which is typically 18 years old. Now, when I'm saying parents make the decisions I am simply referring to rules and regulations children live by at home, along with any philosophies they carry such as theological, political etc..... The fact that there are guidelines in parenthood are such that these guidelines do make the decisions for kids.

Simply saying "having kids to make decisions for them" is grossly erroneous and it manipulates what I meant. I am not saying having kids simply to have automatons is the goal, but I am saying that it is important kids have a structured environment until they can develop the correct sense of independence and responsibility.

 

[Barcode]

The whole point of raising kids is to aide/mentor/guide them
in the fine ART of making choices for ThemSelves.

"Know ThySelf" and "To Thine Own Self Be True".


I was born on the wrong planet.

Ugh! see my above post

 

[Alceste]

I am just this side of shocked that it is mostly women that are understanding this.

Good point - maybe it is because we are all the product of women's lib. We appreciate the freedom of being able to define our own style and choose our own path in life without the burden of gender discrimination. Our mothers and grandmothers fought hard to give us all these choices. Is it such a horrible thing to allow boys the same freedom?

Maybe we need a men's liberation movement. Little boys in dresses playing with dollies! Why not? I loved my big loader and hated my dresses and that was no big deal. All the little boys below a certain age who come into the shop I work in want bangles. I do mean all of them. They gravitate to the bangle display like hogs to a trough and touch them longingly until their mums leave the store. Sometimes they cry when their mums won't buy them - they're only 30 cents each for Pete's sake. Every little girl that goes in there goes out with an armload, but no little boys.

I just think it's really sad. I like thinking that Storm's mum, if she came in, would just go for the bangles and **** the begrudgers.

 

[blackout]

I can explain. The idea that children are little blobs of play-dough to be molded into the form we desire is reprehensible to me. The comment that the "whole point" of having children is to make their decisions for them is deeply disturbing. It may sometimes be necessary to make decisions for children - for example, drawing the line at "ice cream for supper" - but is it really the whole point of having children?

Reprehensible is the right word.

 

[Marble]

What about them? Do they have an inalienable right to know all about Storm's genitals?

Would it not be helpful for them to know when dealing with the baby?
How are they supposed to refer to Storm when they cannot use her or she - are they supposed to say it?

 

[Alceste]

Well if someone asked me to elaborate, it would've made more sense. First off, children cannot make independent decisions for themselves, at least not until the age of independency which is typically 18 years old. Now, when I'm saying parents make the decisions I am simply referring to rules and regulations children live by at home, along with any philosophies they carry such as theological, political etc..... The fact that there are guidelines in parenthood are such that these guidelines do make the decisions for kids.

Simply saying "having kids to make decisions for them" is grossly erroneous and it manipulates what I meant. I am not saying having kids simply to have automatons is the goal, but I am saying that it is important kids have a structured environment until they can develop the correct sense of independence and responsibility.

You're heading for disappointment if you think that they're going to wait until they're 18! Children are psychologically capable of making - and will make - as many independent decisions for themselves as they possibly can, starting when they are about 2. Watching what they come up with (while protecting them from harm) is a fascinating, unpredictable and inspiring process. There's no need to try to make them come to the conclusions you think are "correct". What if they are right and you are wrong?

 

[blackout]

How on earth will these parents EVER go out alone?

They can't hire a baby sitter.
They can't have grandma or grandpa take care of the little one.

Nothing like making life more difficult/complicated/restrictive than it already is.

But if they want to become slaves to their own "secret",
whatever.

 

[Alceste]

Would it not be helpful for them to know when dealing with the baby?
How are they supposed to refer to Storm when they cannot use her or she - are they supposed to say it?

In what way does knowing whether a baby has a penis or a vagina help when dealing with that baby? I've changed enough diapers in my life to know the tools of the trade are the same either way.

If they've been involved in any of the care of the child, they undoubtedly know its gender. If they're not on board with the non-disclosure policy, they probably just call it like they've seen it. If they are supportive of the policy, they probably also use (s)he. If they haven't been involved in the care of the child for the past 18 months, who cares what they know or don't know? What difference does it make?

 

[Alceste]

How on earth will these parents EVER go out alone?

They can't hire a baby sitter.
They can't have grandma or grandpa take care of the little one.

Nothing like making life more difficult/complicated/restrictive than it already is.

But if they want to become slaves to their own "secret",
whatever.

I don't think it's like that at all. They're hardly living in a secret nuclear bunker. I expect the whole story amounts to refusing to answer the question "is it a boy or a girl". If they were that paranoid about someone discovering their big "secret", they probably wouldn't be changing Storm's diapers in the playground. As it is, the mum has said that if people want to sneak a peek, "that's their journey".

 

[blackout]

I don't think it's like that at all. They're hardly living in a secret nuclear bunker. I expect the whole story amounts to refusing to answer the question "is it a boy or a girl". If they were that paranoid about someone discovering their big "secret", they probably wouldn't be changing Storm's diapers in the playground. As it is, the mum has said that if people want to sneak a peek, "that's their journey".

Well then, people are going to gender type Storm IN SPITE of their
not answering the "boy/girl" question.

So then this whole thing is an exercise FOR THEM.
(the parents)
And really amounts to nothing "news" worthy.

"oh well, the parents won't tell, but Storm's a girl.
I saw."

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Well my comment was the result of not reading the article entirely and reading subsequent responses which was my mistake.

I don't think it's entirely your fault, since the headline is IMO sensationalistic and misleading.

I have an advantage in that I actually read a lot of extra articles - including one written by the mum - on the subject because the one the OP linked to was far too light on context and facts for my taste.

You wouldn't happen to have a link to that, would you? I'd be interested to read it.

Well then, people are going to gender type Storm IN SPITE of their
not answering the "boy/girl" question.

So then this whole thing is an exercise FOR THEM.
(the parents)
And really amounts to nothing "news" worthy.

"oh well, the parents won't tell, but Storm's a girl.
I saw."

I agree - it's not newsworthy.

Anyone who is close enough to the family to ever be present when Storm's diaper is changed will know whether Storm is a boy or a girl. The whole story really only amounts to two separate issues that have been conflated together by the reporters:

- the parents aren't telling casual acquaintances, extended family and strangers (i.e. anyone who wouldn't find out Storm's gender as a matter of course) about Storm's gender.

- the parents have declared that they don't want to impose traditional gender norms on their child.

Any parent who would respond to a random reporter asking "so... is your kid a boy or a girl?" with "why do you care?" is pretty close to the first point, and it's the one that the press is playing up.

A person doesn't want to share all the details of their family with a reporter? Stop the presses! That's front page news!

 

[angellous_evangellous]

- the parents have declared that they don't want to impose traditional gender norms on their child.

That sounds cute, but it's simply impossible. Gender types are so pervasive in our culture that the child would have to live in complete isolation from everyone, because we all embody some type.

No interaction with gendered family members, no TV, no movies, no books, no music, no art, nothing that embodies gender types. The kid would have to live an a plastic bubble doing absolutely nothing.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That sounds cute, but it's simply impossible. Gender types are so pervasive in our culture that the child would have to live in complete isolation from everyone, because we all embody some type.

No interaction with gendered family members, no TV, no movies, no books, no music, no art, nothing that embodies gender types. The kid would have to live an a plastic bubble doing absolutely nothing.

Society will undoubtedly have some influence on the child's life, but that doesn't mean that the parents have to impose gender norms on their child.

 

[Alceste]

Hey, Pengo, hopefully this links to the Star's articles on the subject:
Topic : Genderless Baby - thestar.com

 

[Penumbra]

Seems like an overreaction to me.

They could tone down gender influence and stereotypes on their child without making it dramatic and secretive.

 

[Alceste]

Seems like an overreaction to me.

They could tone down gender influence and stereotypes on their child without making it dramatic and secretive.

The controversy about it seems like the more significant over-reaction to me. I would not be surprised if the parents just didn't expect such a whirlwind of righteous public indignation. Maybe they, like me, can't see what the big deal is.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

The controversy about it seems like the more significant over-reaction to me. I would not be surprised if the parents just didn't expect such a whirlwind of righteous public indignation.

Yeah, I'm sure that's quite an unexpected bonus.

 

[Alceste]

Yeah, I'm sure that's quite an unexpected bonus.

yeah, I don't doubt the cash from the articles and media attention was a nice little windfall. it's not cheap raising a family anywhere in canada, let alone toronto...,

 

[PeaceLoveJoy]

No matter what by the time the child is 5-18 people will figure out the gender then what was the point of that.