Traditional Marriage, Why It Matters, All Churches, Christians, Islam and Jews only please?

[McBell]

However, a marriage can only refer to the union of a man and a woman. It can be done in any religious manner desired.

Except that marriage is a legal contract first and for most.
All the religious hype, frosting, window dressing, etc. does not change that marriage is a legal contract.

One wonders why you ignore this fact.

It is the Supreme court that is making a new definition for marriage, with a civil marriage, defined under their laws.

No, they aren't.
Marriage is a legal contract between two people.

And I fear they will force all religions to acquiesce to their rules.

Really?
Sounds to me you are making a mountain out of a mole hill.
Churches (at least here in the USA) can refuse to marry anyone they like for whatever reason they like.

And you claim that my opinion doesn't matter. The evidence contradicts you. My opinion generates a lot of posts for not seeming to matter.

Fighting ignorance is a favorite pastime for several members of this forum.

 

[Norman]

Your religious ideas on marriage don't belong in US Law!

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Norman: If you want to put it that way, then the same sex marriage movement does not belong in US Law.!!!

 

[fantome profane]

Norman: If you want to put it that way, then the same sex marriage movement does not belong in US Law.!!!

Same sex marriage is not about imposing religious concepts on anybody. It is about equal treatment under the law. It is a secular idea that is already enshrined in the U.S. Constitution.

 

[Ingledsva]

Norman: If you want to put it that way, then the same sex marriage movement does not belong in US Law.!!!

FantomeProfane beat me to it. Good answer.

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[Norman]

Same sex marriage is not about imposing religious concepts on anybody. It is about equal treatment under the law. It is a secular idea that is already enshrined in the U.S. Constitution.

Norman: Equal treatment under what law? Marriage is a Religious institution, always has been, always will be.

 

[fantome profane]

Norman: Equal treatment under what law? Marriage is a Religious institution, always has been, always will be.

This is simply not true, and it never has been true. The marriage comes from the state, it is a legal construct. And as such it must be equal, there must be equal treatment under the law.

Think about the last thing said in the traditional marriage ceremony. The minister, priest, justice whatever has traditionally ended the ceremony with the words "by the power invested in me by the state of ...". That power to marry people comes from the government, not from any church or any religion. The fact that these ceremonies often take place in churches and are officiated by clergy is irrelevant. It is a cutesy given by the government to the church.

Marriage is solely in the power of the government. A marriage allowed by the government but opposed by a church or a religion is still a legal marriage. A marriage not allowed by government but allowed by a church is not a legal marriage.

Government and church = legal marriage
Government without church = legal marriage
Church without government = not a legal marriage.

Your church or your religion has nothing to do with it.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Norman: Equal treatment under what law? Marriage is a Religious institution, always has been, always will be.

Your religion has its own views on marriage, but that version does not apply to all.

 

[Norman]

Although the family is an institution set up by God I disagree with what your church teaches and here's why. Jesus said, "in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven." (Matthew 22:30)

Norman: In regards to Matthew 22:30. Jesus was answering a question about a story told in the book of Tobit, (which was in circulation at the time) in which a young woman named Sara was married to seven men, each of whom dies on his wedding night. Jesus stated that she would be married to none of them in the hereafter. He was not speaking of marriage in general. As it turns out, in Tobit, the angel Raphael tells Tobias that Sara was destined for him from the beginning and it is the angel who actually arranges the marriage. So, for all we know, she was married for time to the other seven men, then sealed to Tobias. In the words of Jesus when he answered the Sadducees' question on this issue, "Ye do therefore greatly err, not knowing the scriptures."

Marriage itself is an earthly symbol of a spiritual reality which is being united with Christ in salvation. Jesus was single because he understood that he was the sole heir to the throne of David and he was God (self sufficient). There will come a day that marriage will not be there because there will be no need to produce life nor will man need a helper because God will redeem the earth and make it holy.

Norman: Jesus had a family, Mark 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother‍ of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him. You can't prove Jesus was not married no more than I can prove that he was. We believe in my Church that families are forever, they are eternal and will exist after this life. Yes, I agree with you that the earth will be in a celestial state for eternity.

When you don't preach the grace of God and only condemn other lifestyles besides your own it makes the Gospel more about your way of life than Jesus' sacrifice and resurrection.

Norman: The term "grace" appears 130 times in the King James New Testament and in every book of scripture from Acts to Revelation with the exception of 1 and 3 John. The Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter-Day saints teaches grace, the grace that Jesus Christ can only give for redemption of everyone. We believe that same sex attraction is not the sin, acting upon it is, we do not condemn any one. We teach of Jesus Christ and his atonement. We follow and teach the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[Norman]

This is simply not true, and it never has been true. The marriage comes from the state, it is a legal construct. And as such it must be equal, there must be equal treatment under the law.

Think about the last thing said in the traditional marriage ceremony. The minister, priest, justice whatever has traditionally ended the ceremony with the words "by the power invested in me by the state of ...". That power to marry people comes from the government, not from any church or any religion. The fact that these ceremonies often take place in churches and are officiated by clergy is irrelevant. It is a cutesy given by the government to the church.

Marriage is solely in the power of the government. A marriage allowed by the government but opposed by a church or a religion is still a legal marriage. A marriage not allowed by government but allowed by a church is not a legal marriage.

Government and church = legal marriage
Government without church = legal marriage
Church without government = not a legal marriage.

Your church or your religion has nothing to do with it.

Norman: Just because some people want to be married outside a Church does not make Marriage a Government institution. God gave us marriage and the bundle of rights that come with it.

 

[Norman]

Your religion has its own views on marriage, but that version does not apply to all.

Norman: God married Adam and Eve, therefore marriage is a religious institution, however, if you do not believe in the Bible then this would only leave to you, civil marriages by a magistrate. We are not the only Church that holds this view. We are not alone on this matter.

 

[fantome profane]

Norman: Just because some people want to be married outside a Church does not make Marriage a Government institution. God gave us marriage and the bundle of rights that come with it.

You are entitled to believe whatever you want to about "God". But this is mythology. And we are not going to deny people basic rights and equal treatment under the law because of what you believe an invisible supernatural entity thinks.

Your opinion that "God" gave us marriage has no legal weight at all, none.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Norman: God married Adam and Eve, therefore marriage is a religious institution, however, if you do not believe in the Bible then this would only leave to you, civil marriages by a magistrate. We are not the only Church that holds this view. We are not alone on this matter.

And what of the hundreds of cultures that did/do not practice any sort of Abrahamic religion?

 

[dgirl1986]

Norman: Equal treatment under what law? Marriage is a Religious institution, always has been, always will be.

Marriage is a cultural construct, not a religious one.

 

[dgirl1986]

Norman: Just because some people want to be married outside a Church does not make Marriage a Government institution. God gave us marriage and the bundle of rights that come with it.

Prove it.

 

[fantome profane]

From the 14th amendment to the u.s. constitution.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

And from the supreme court decision in Loving vs Virgina.

Marriage is a civil contract, and in that character alone is dealt with by the municipal law. The same right to make a contract as is enjoyed by white citizens, means the right to make any contract which a white citizen may make. The law intended to destroy the distinctions of race and color in respect to the rights secured by it.

This is why you can't make a legal argument by quoting the Bible. Biblical verses are irrelevant here. This is what the us law states, and this is what matters.

 

[dgirl1986]

From the 14th amendment to the u.s. constitution.

And from the supreme court decision in Loving vs Virgina.


This is why you can't make a legal argument by quoting the Bible. Biblical verses are irrelevant here. This is what the us law states, and this is what matters.

I wish australia had left religion out of it. Funny how we have god in our consitution yet we are less religious than the US.

 

[Norman]

No it doesn't say wife.

It says woman, - wife was added later to the translations.

Norman: what is your source that wife was added later? Because I do not believe that it was. It seems you are fishing for an answer.

Almost everywhere it says - wife - in the Bible - it is actually - woman.

EDIT -

And the man called the name of his wife, Eve; because she became the mother of all living.
Actually says -

Gen 3:20 And called Adam the name of the ishshah/woman Chav'vah;...

Norman: Genesis 2:24 Therefore (Ken) shall a man ('iysh) leave (`azab) his father ('ab) and his mother,( 'em) and shall cleave (Dabaq) unto his wife: ('ishshah) and they shall be one ('echad) flesh. (Basar)

['ishshah: woman, wife, female depending on the context]

Genesis 3:20 And Adam ('adam) called (Qara') his wife's ('ishshah) name (Shem) Eve; (Chavvah) because she was the mother ('em) of all living. (Chay)

['ishshah: woman, wife, female depending on the context]

KJV Verse Count of 'ishshah (you would have to read each passage to see if the context is "woman" "Wife" or "female")
Genesis 132
Exodus 34
Leviticus 32
Numbers 35
Deuteronomy 34
Joshua 9
Judges 55
Ruth 14
1 Samuel 47
2 Samuel 40
1 Kings 34
2 Kings 17
1 Chronicles 20
2 Chronicles 18
Ezra 11
Nehemiah 10
Esther 18
Job 8
Psalms 3
Proverbs 24
Ecclesiastes 3
Solomon 3
Isaiah 11
Jeremiah 32
Lamentations 3
Ezekiel 20
Daniel 2
Hosea 4
Amos 2
Micah 1
Nahum 1
Zechariah 7
Malachi 2

Total 686


Also - illegitimate - children, only become a problem - for men - in Patriarchal cultures where men wish to control women and offspring. It was obviously not a problem in Matrilineal/Matrifocal cultures.

Marriage/ownership is only - normal - to patriarchal cultures.

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[Norman]

That is a very good point!

As we look at "traditional marriage" as defended by theists based on bronzed aged religions, let's take a quick look at what "traditional marriage" was when the Bible and other "holy texts" were written:

Marriages were arranged. The courtship rituals of 2 people finding each other in Central Park, falling in love, proposing one to the other then living happily ever after is not what traditional marriage was and is not the marriage spoken of by Paul, the Prophets and the Apostles. In fact, it was the form of marriage spoken of by Jesus Christ himself.

Neither son or daughter had any choice in the matter: the parents of the children decided whom each would marry and this was often decided long before the children even reached puberty. This was considered a duty and a holy sacrament. The commands to "love" thy spouses did not mean love them then marry them; it meant marry them then love them. This was a religious and civil responsibility. This tradition lingered on for several thousand years, long into the Middle Ages and beyond; where nobility and royalty predestined, for their children, whom they would marry, and this was most often based upon stepping up the social ladder. It had nothing to do with love and had everything to do with money; and became religionized.

The courtship rituals and the "fairy tale" romances in stories and songs are latecomers to marriage. Thus, if your mother and father did not dictate to you whom you would marry, you are not in a "traditional marriage" as spoken about in our bronzed aged texts.

Have you ever noticed that in the fairy tales like "Cinderella" and "Snow White", it's always a handsome prince who whisks away the maiden? More of the same; a fairy tale romance that not only included "love" that was lacking in traditional marriage, but climbing the social ladder as well.

IF you are to tell me that "traditional marriage" spoken of in Abrahamic faiths matters, I will tell you that it definitely DOES NOT matter. It is a dead custom and a dead culture. Where arranged marriages exist today, the civilized world considers barbaric and a strike at the heart of basic human rights; where individuals are to be allowed to make their own decisions and where human beings as individuals are permitted to choose their own life's path. We consider the marriages spoken of in the Bible as immoral today; because it was misogynistic and removes personal decisions and "free will" from the same group of people who claim to cherish 'free will".

This form of marriage -- devoid of love but replete with mere duty -- has lasted longer as an institution than any other definition of marriage and was the marriage referred to in ancient texts; thus, if there is any definition of "traditional marriage", this is it. And in today's societies and by today's moral standards, it is abominable.

Norman:
.

The Nuclear Family, Traditional Marriage at it's best

 

[Norman]

Marriage is a cultural construct, not a religious one.

Norman: Please explain your point?

 

[Norman]

And what of the hundreds of cultures that did/do not practice any sort of Abrahamic religion?

Norman: What about them? What is your point?