Traditional Marriage, Why It Matters, All Churches, Christians, Islam and Jews only please?

[SomeRandom]

Norman:
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The Nuclear Family, Traditional Marriage at it's best

The Nuclear model of family was a reaction to the great wars. It's barely 60 years old. How is it traditional?

 

[Ingledsva]

Norman: Equal treatment under what law? Marriage is a Religious institution, always has been, always will be.

FALSE! Religious Blessed marriages, are from religious institutions.

People have been getting married for thousands of years WITHOUT a church blessing.

Gay people have been getting married for thousands of years - we have presented the proof - sources!

In fact I provided a couple of sources showing Christian Preachers officiating at, and blessing, GAY marriages.

And I might add some Christian Preachers still do today.

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[Norman]

There are over 1,000 rights and privileges that come with walking down the aisle, including claiming the body, visitation rights during incarceration and/or hospitalization, dispersement of property when one is deceased bereft of last will, etc. etc.

Let's say that my same sex spouse is in a bad wreck that renders him a little more than a vegetable, unable to make decisions for himself. Let's say that we are together in a committed relationship but that the state does not recognize this. Let's say that my spouse's family disapproves of gays and gay marriage and blames me for "making their son gay".

Because I have no recognition under law, I have no rights. The immediate family could step in, refuse me visitation, assume the role of decision maker (as they are recognized as immediate family and I am not), and do as they please regardless of mine and my spouse's wishes. After all, my spouse is not in a position to make decisions for himself or to speak his wishes; thus I must now fight the immediate family (and possibly lose) to have their son's wishes honored.

Now, let's go a different route and assume that my spouse got into trouble with the law (innocent or guilty) and for whatever reason, while under detention, visitation is limited to the bare minimum of law: Legal, Religious, Mental Health Professionals and Immediate family. If the State does not recognize our union, no amount of paperwork will compensate for that. Regardless of our wishes, in such a circumstance, we have no rights to each other.

So, for one to say, "a marriage can only refer to the union of a man and a woman" supersedes religious concerns. You are saying more than "in religious connotations, only marriages between a man and a woman are recognized"; what you are saying is "those gays should not have the same rights as we have". And that is just not acceptable.

Norman: What is it about civil rights that you seem not to understand or ignore to understand? “You portray legalization of so-called same-sex marriage as a civil right. This is not a matter of civil rights; it is a matter of morality. Others question our constitutional right as a church to raise our voice on an issue that is of critical importance to the future of the family. We believe that defending this sacred institution by working to preserve traditional marriage lies clearly within our religious and constitutional prerogatives. Indeed, we are compelled by our doctrine to speak out. Your scenario doesn't hold water.

 

[Norman]

FALSE! Religious Blessed marriages, are from religious institutions.

People have been getting married for thousands of years WITHOUT a church blessing.

Gay people have been getting married for thousands of years - we have presented the proof - sources!

In fact I provided a couple of sources showing Christian Preachers officiating at, and blessing, GAY marriages.

And I might add some Christian Preachers still do today.

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Norman: What is it about civil rights that you seem not to understand or ignore to understand? “You portray legalization of so-called same-sex marriage as a civil right. This is not a matter of civil rights; it is a matter of morality. Others question our constitutional right as a church to raise our voice on an issue that is of critical importance to the future of the family. We believe that defending this sacred institution by working to preserve traditional marriage lies clearly within our religious and constitutional prerogatives. Indeed, we are compelled by our doctrine to speak out

 

[Flankerl]

Norman: Equal treatment under what law? Marriage is a Religious institution, always has been, always will be.

Do tell.
Civil marriage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Norman]

The Nuclear model of family was a reaction to the great wars. It's barely 60 years old. How is it traditional?

Norman: The Nuclear family goes all the way back to God and Genesis, Adam and Eve and there children gave birth to the Nuclear family approved of God, they were married by God. The wars did not give birth to it, however, the wars strengthened the institution.

 

[Norman]

Do tell.
Civil marriage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Norman: What is it about civil rights that you seem not to understand or ignore to understand? “You portray legalization of so-called same-sex marriage as a civil right. This is not a matter of civil rights; it is a matter of morality. Others question our constitutional right as a church to raise our voice on an issue that is of critical importance to the future of the family. We believe that defending this sacred institution by working to preserve traditional marriage lies clearly within our religious and constitutional prerogatives. Indeed, we are compelled by our doctrine to speak out

 

[Norman]

Prove it.

Norman: God married Adam and Eve and they had children, thus the Nuclear family was born. Ordained of God. It is not about civil rights, it is about morality in traditional marriage that is eons old.

 

[Norman]

You are entitled to believe whatever you want to about "God". But this is mythology. And we are not going to deny people basic rights and equal treatment under the law because of what you believe an invisible supernatural entity thinks.

Your opinion that "God" gave us marriage has no legal weight at all, none.

Norman: What is it about civil rights that you seem not to understand or ignore to understand? “You portray legalization of so-called same-sex marriage as a civil right. This is not a matter of civil rights; it is a matter of morality. Others question our constitutional right as a church to raise our voice on an issue that is of critical importance to the future of the family. We believe that defending this sacred institution by working to preserve traditional marriage lies clearly within our religious and constitutional prerogatives. Indeed, we are compelled by our doctrine to speak out.

 

[Norman]

I'm confused by your point. Same-sex marriage ONLY pertains to civil marriage, not religious marriage or "holy matrimony". There is no threat of Churches being forced to perform these marriages, so that would be nothing but a straw-man if brought up. And, didn't Jesus say, "give unto Ceasar what is Ceasars", meaning that his followers were to stay out of political issues not pertaining to religion or spirituality in any way? So, how do you reconcile your opposition to civil marriage between members of the same sex?

Norman: Jesus said, render unto Caesars what is Caesars, it was about paying taxes if you read the biblical account. Then Jesus said, render unto God what is God's.

 

[Norman]

The problem with what you said there - is that it is YOU that thinks it is immoral, - the rest of us do not, - and your religious laws do not trump human rights.

Also as has been shown over-and-over, there are no Bible verses that are actually against homosexuals, - there are texts against Sacred Sex which is IDOLATRY.

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Norman: What is it about civil rights that you seem not to understand or ignore to understand? “You portray legalization of so-called same-sex marriage as a civil right. This is not a matter of civil rights; it is a matter of morality. Others question our constitutional right as a church to raise our voice on an issue that is of critical importance to the future of the family. We believe that defending this sacred institution by working to preserve traditional marriage lies clearly within our religious and constitutional prerogatives. Indeed, we are compelled by our doctrine to speak out. It is not about a new civil right, it is about morality. Do you have morals, values that you believe in?

 

[SomeRandom]

Norman: The Nuclear family goes all the way back to God and Genesis, Adam and Eve and there children gave birth to the Nuclear family approved of God, they were married by God. The wars did not give birth to it, however, the wars strengthened the institution.

The wars decimated us, actually. Before the war, most likely due to death during childbirth, it wasn't uncommon for grandparents to act as parents, for men to be on their second or third marriage (possibly with kids from previous wives, if they survived) and all sorts of other arrangements. Arranged marriage, very young kids being married and marriage between cousins was the norm for quite some time.
I remember for History class we often had WWII vets talk to us and occasionally someone would bring up the "Nuclear" family in some way or anther. The answer from the vets were always the same. They treated it as some sort of anomaly. Something reserved for people who had a cushy life. I think the word "spoilt" came up often. Even my father, who was raised during the Great Depression (and came from a Nuclear Family) spoke of it as some sort of oddity during his time. During the 50s it began to appeal to people as the "ideal" most likely due to people who had to grow up without fathers or injured family members as a result of the war. Or maybe people during the 50s were just naive and idealistic, I don't know. And viola, (during the Baby Boom especially) it became the norm.

 

[Ingledsva]

'ishshâh: This word is the feminine form of 'îysh (man), which means a woman (the female ...)

There was no ancient marriage there. Young girls were handed from father, to another man, as broodmares.

They were owned by the male, not married.

"Wife" is a latter ADDED translation.

By the way NORMAN - all your quoting in there was later translation - the meaning is

'îysh: man, 'ishshâh: woman, - everything else is add-on.

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[dgirl1986]

Norman: Please explain your point?

I am not sure what it is you want me to explain. Marriage is a part of cultures around the world and is not religion specific.

 

[dgirl1986]

Norman: What is it about civil rights that you seem not to understand or ignore to understand? “You portray legalization of so-called same-sex marriage as a civil right. This is not a matter of civil rights; it is a matter of morality. Others question our constitutional right as a church to raise our voice on an issue that is of critical importance to the future of the family. We believe that defending this sacred institution by working to preserve traditional marriage lies clearly within our religious and constitutional prerogatives. Indeed, we are compelled by our doctrine to speak out

Can you explain how other countries have been accepting of marriage equality and alternative families, and have not have negative effects in population or welfare of population since?

 

[dgirl1986]

Norman: God married Adam and Eve and they had children, thus the Nuclear family was born. Ordained of God. It is not about civil rights, it is about morality in traditional marriage that is eons old.

What verse were they married? The Nuclear family is a modern construct. Traditional marriage encounters factors that you would object to because it doesnt fit with the susie homemaker family mold.

 

[Ingledsva]

Norman: What is it about civil rights that you seem not to understand or ignore to understand? “You portray legalization of so-called same-sex marriage as a civil right. This is not a matter of civil rights; it is a matter of morality. Others question our constitutional right as a church to raise our voice on an issue that is of critical importance to the future of the family. We believe that defending this sacred institution by working to preserve traditional marriage lies clearly within our religious and constitutional prerogatives. Indeed, we are compelled by our doctrine to speak out. It is not about a new civil right, it is about morality. Do you have morals, values that you believe in?

Only in your mind is it immoral! Obviously no one is stopping you from voicing your opinions on the subject!

We shouldn't have to keep repeating this to you.

NOTHING is going to happen to the family - because you allowed more families!

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[Norman]

Same sex marriage only applies to civil marriage, not religious marriage. No religion would be under any obligation to recognize anything. That is merely a straw man.

Norman: No straw man. What is it about civil rights that you seem not to understand or ignore to understand? “You portray legalization of so-called same-sex marriage as a civil right. This is not a matter of civil rights; it is a matter of morality. Others question our constitutional right as a church to raise our voice on an issue that is of critical importance to the future of the family. We believe that defending this sacred institution by working to preserve traditional marriage lies clearly within our religious and constitutional prerogatives. Indeed, we are compelled by our doctrine to speak out

 

[dgirl1986]

Norman: No straw man. What is it about civil rights that you seem not to understand or ignore to understand? “You portray legalization of so-called same-sex marriage as a civil right. This is not a matter of civil rights; it is a matter of morality. Others question our constitutional right as a church to raise our voice on an issue that is of critical importance to the future of the family. We believe that defending this sacred institution by working to preserve traditional marriage lies clearly within our religious and constitutional prerogatives. Indeed, we are compelled by our doctrine to speak out

How is it not a civil right? Do tell.

 

[SomeRandom]

Norman: No straw man. What is it about civil rights that you seem not to understand or ignore to understand? “You portray legalization of so-called same-sex marriage as a civil right. This is not a matter of civil rights; it is a matter of morality. Others question our constitutional right as a church to raise our voice on an issue that is of critical importance to the future of the family. We believe that defending this sacred institution by working to preserve traditional marriage lies clearly within our religious and constitutional prerogatives. Indeed, we are compelled by our doctrine to speak out

So your Church goes to protest one minute marriages in Hollywood? Divorce (except for cheating spouse/s)? That's good, otherwise you'd be hypocritical. They're still legal, of course, but at least you speak out against them.