Traditional Marriage, Why It Matters, All Churches, Christians, Islam and Jews only please?

[Flankerl]

Norman: What is it about civil rights that you seem not to understand or ignore to understand? “You portray legalization of so-called same-sex marriage as a civil right. This is not a matter of civil rights; it is a matter of morality. Others question our constitutional right as a church to raise our voice on an issue that is of critical importance to the future of the family. We believe that defending this sacred institution by working to preserve traditional marriage lies clearly within our religious and constitutional prerogatives. Indeed, we are compelled by our doctrine to speak out

Well I am not the one who's incapable to understand a simple Wikipedia article.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Norman: What about them? What is your point?

Those cultures have absolutely no concept of your religion, thus their marriages are not based on your religion. "Marriage" is a term that varies greatly.

Norman: The Nuclear family goes all the way back to God and Genesis, Adam and Eve and there children gave birth to the Nuclear family approved of God, they were married by God. The wars did not give birth to it, however, the wars strengthened the institution.

The OED states the term only goes back to 1925. What is far more common is the grand parents, parents, children, siblings, and sometimes even aunts, uncles, and cousins living together.
This idea of two parents and children being the only ones to live together, and the children being expected to move out when they are an adult, is indeed a very new things.

Norman: No straw man. What is it about civil rights that you seem not to understand or ignore to understand? “You portray legalization of so-called same-sex marriage as a civil right. This is not a matter of civil rights; it is a matter of morality.

It's only an issue of morality to you. You do not have any right to impose your religious morality upon others.

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

Norman: If you want to put it that way, then the same sex marriage movement does not belong in US Law.!!!

NOW you're GETTING it! Under secular law, the same rules that apply to you, apply to me. End recognition of "marriage" by the government or offer the recognition to same sex or "traditional" marriage under equal rules. This has nothing to do with your religious tenets and nothing to do with whether or not your religion or group recognizes my marriage or condones it. That is utterly unimportant to me. But when you insist that I be disparaged the rights that you enjoy; now I am compelled to speak up.

Norman: Equal treatment under what law? Marriage is a Religious institution, always has been, always will be.

I won't argue with you on this one; if you believe that, fine. But it's beside the point. The point is that marriage is recognized by law, and is recognized in a fashion outside of your religious tenets. The government's recognition of marriage is about matters of civil law, and civil law exclusively. You're idea that the government recognizes your marriage as a "religious institution" is a delusion and a falsehood.

Norman: The term "grace" appears 130 times in the King James New Testament and in every book of scripture from Acts to Revelation with the exception of 1 and 3 John. The Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter-Day saints teaches grace, the grace that Jesus Christ can only give for redemption of everyone. We believe that same sex attraction is not the sin, acting upon it is, we do not condemn any one. We teach of Jesus Christ and his atonement. We follow and teach the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

You are free to believe as you wish. That is guaranteed you by the secular constitution of the United States and by the secular document of the Human Rights Declaration of the United Nations. No one is taking that from you. But having the right to believe as you will does not extend to you the right to force or legislate that others abide by your beliefs.

Norman: Just because some people want to be married outside a Church does not make Marriage a Government institution. God gave us marriage and the bundle of rights that come with it.

This is laughable. The government by which we are governed determines what rights to grant us and what rights not to grant us. The rights which you enjoy in your marriage are honored by the government; with or without God.

Norman: What is it about civil rights that you seem not to understand or ignore to understand? “You portray legalization of so-called same-sex marriage as a civil right. This is not a matter of civil rights; it is a matter of morality. Others question our constitutional right as a church to raise our voice on an issue that is of critical importance to the future of the family. We believe that defending this sacred institution by working to preserve traditional marriage lies clearly within our religious and constitutional prerogatives. Indeed, we are compelled by our doctrine to speak out. Your scenario doesn't hold water.

No one is saying that you don't have the right to speak out or believe as you will. Any who is saying that certainly doesn't understand civil rights. But know that I, also, enjoy those same civil rights. As a result, I have every right to tell you that I believe you are wrong and why. I have every right to fight for the government to recognize my same sex marriage under the same rules as your marriage. My moral compass, which honors the rights of individuals to be treated equally under color of state law, compels me to speak out.

If you do not see the issues presented in my scenarios, then you neither understand nor honor civil rights or human rights.

 

[McBell]

Norman: If you want to put it that way, then the same sex marriage movement does not belong in US Law.!!!

That is exactly right.
Now since the only laws concerning same sex marriage are to ban same sex marriage, why are YOU for same sex marriage laws?

 

[McBell]

Norman: Equal treatment under what law? Marriage is a Religious institution, always has been, always will be.

Marriage is a legal contract.
Denial of that fact does not help you.

 

[McBell]

Norman: What is it about civil rights that you seem not to understand or ignore to understand? “You portray legalization of so-called same-sex marriage as a civil right. This is not a matter of civil rights; it is a matter of morality. Others question our constitutional right as a church to raise our voice on an issue that is of critical importance to the future of the family. We believe that defending this sacred institution by working to preserve traditional marriage lies clearly within our religious and constitutional prerogatives. Indeed, we are compelled by our doctrine to speak out

Here again you are presenting the facts incorrectly.
The only reason for "legalizing" same sex marriage is because some homophobic areas have banned it.
Not only have they banned same sex marriage, but they have also gone so far as to not recognize the legal same sex marriage of other areas.
NOW the Supreme Court has to get involved and tell the Homophobic areas they cannot legally ban same sex marriage.

Thus it is your favoured bans on same sex marriage that are illegal becuase they should have never been put in place in the first place.

 

[McBell]

Norman: God married Adam and Eve and they had children, thus the Nuclear family was born. Ordained of God. It is not about civil rights, it is about morality in traditional marriage that is eons old.

Would you please be so kind as to present the verse(s) where God married Adam and Eve?
Your Nuclear Family only exists as a fairy tale, much like Cinderella and Snow White.

 

[McBell]

Norman: What is it about civil rights that you seem not to understand or ignore to understand? “You portray legalization of so-called same-sex marriage as a civil right. This is not a matter of civil rights; it is a matter of morality. Others question our constitutional right as a church to raise our voice on an issue that is of critical importance to the future of the family. We believe that defending this sacred institution by working to preserve traditional marriage lies clearly within our religious and constitutional prerogatives. Indeed, we are compelled by our doctrine to speak out. It is not about a new civil right, it is about morality. Do you have morals, values that you believe in?

I have to ask, since you keep repeating this pile of bull ****, who it is you are trying to convince, Us or yourself?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Norman: What is it about civil rights that you seem not to understand or ignore to understand? “You portray legalization of so-called same-sex marriage as a civil right. This is not a matter of civil rights; it is a matter of morality....

I maintain that if civil rights and morality are assumed to be mutually exclusive, that this is where soul-searching must actually occur. I don't think you are talking about morality, but tradition masking as morality.

Human and civil rights ARE a matter of morality.

 

[leibowde84]

Norman: Jesus said, render unto Caesars what is Caesars, it was about paying taxes if you read the biblical account. Then Jesus said, render unto God what is God's.

Right, so, since "civil marriage" is a legal term applicable only to the state, it is in the "ceasar" category and religion should be left out of it. Religious marriage should be kept separate though. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[leibowde84]

Norman: No straw man. What is it about civil rights that you seem not to understand or ignore to understand? “You portray legalization of so-called same-sex marriage as a civil right. This is not a matter of civil rights; it is a matter of morality. Others question our constitutional right as a church to raise our voice on an issue that is of critical importance to the future of the family. We believe that defending this sacred institution by working to preserve traditional marriage lies clearly within our religious and constitutional prerogatives. Indeed, we are compelled by our doctrine to speak out

I never mentioned "civil rights", I referred to "civil marriage" which is a different entity than religious marriage. And, you claim that you are speaking to morality, but your morality on this subject is based on religious beliefs, so it would be inappropriate to legislate based on this form of "morality". Unless you have reasons for thinking that same-sex marriage is imoral beyond what certain religions claim, I think it is innapropriate to interject religious morality into the conversation.

 

[Norman]

I never mentioned "civil rights", I referred to "civil marriage" which is a different entity than religious marriage. And, you claim that you are speaking to morality, but your morality on this subject is based on religious beliefs, so it would be inappropriate to legislate based on this form of "morality". Unless you have reasons for thinking that same-sex marriage is imoral beyond what certain religions claim, I think it is innapropriate to interject religious morality into the conversation.

Norman: Sorry about the civil rights. I know what a civil marriage is. Regardless of what civil legislation may be enacted, the doctrine of the Lord regarding marriage and morality cannot be changed. It is not ours to change. His doctrine is ours to study, understand, and uphold. We can legislate on morality. I want to digress for a moment. In 1995, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints published “The Family: A Proclamation to the World,” which declares the following truths about marriage: We, the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of His children. The family is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity.

The family is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity. Marriage is sacred and was ordained of God from before the foundation of the world. Jesus Christ affirmed the divine origins of marriage: “Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, and said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?” (Matthew 19:4–5.)

From the beginning, the sacred nature of marriage was closely linked to the power of procreation. After creating Adam and Eve, God commanded them to “be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and they brought forth children, forming the first family. Only a man and a woman together have the natural biological capacity to conceive children. This power of procreation—to create life and bring God’s spirit children into the world—is divinely given. Misuse of this power undermines the institution of the family. (Genesis 1:28.) [See M. Russell Ballard, “What Matters Most Is What Lasts Longest,” Ensign, Nov. 2005, 41–44.]

Elder Dallin H. Oaks has observed, “Tolerance does not require abandoning one’s standards or one’s opinions on political or public policy choices. Tolerance is a way of reacting to diversity, not a command to insulate it from examination. The Savior taught that we should love the sinner without condoning the sin. In the case of the woman taken in adultery, He treated her kindly but exhorted her to “sin no more.” His example manifested the highest love possible. In addition to using the argument of tolerance to advocate redefining marriage, proponents have advanced the argument of “equality before the law.” No mortal law, however, can override or nullify the moral standards established by God. Nor can the laws of men change the natural, innate differences between the genders or deny the close biological and social link between procreation and marriage. (Dallin H. Oaks, “Weightier Matters,” Ensign, Jan. 2001, 17. John 8:11.)

 

[columbus]

Regardless of what civil legislation may be enacted, the doctrine of the Lord regarding marriage and morality cannot be changed. It is not ours to change.

The hypocrisy of this statement makes me angry.
The LDS was founded by polygamists. Which I would agree is the biblical form of marriage.
But you are now arguing against monogamy because so many people have come to value it, even though it contradicts your 125 year old "tradition".
Tom

 

[Excalibur]

Marriage is a legal contract.
Denial of that fact does not help you.

Wrong. He doesn't deny anything.
Because marriage is a legal contract doesn't change the fact that it's ALSO a religious institution.
Besides legal contract, it's also a "human right" according to the European Convention on Human Rights.

 

[Excalibur]

Would you please be so kind as to present the verse(s) where God married Adam and Eve?
Your Nuclear Family only exists as a fairy tale, much like Cinderella and Snow White.

Wrong. The common law marriage of Adam and Eve is mentioned in Genesis 4:1.
But can you prove that the Nuclear Family isn't part of Palaeolithic societies?

 

[leibowde84]

Norman: Sorry about the civil rights. I know what a civil marriage is. Regardless of what civil legislation may be enacted, the doctrine of the Lord regarding marriage and morality cannot be changed. It is not ours to change. His doctrine is ours to study, understand, and uphold. We can legislate on morality. I want to digress for a moment. In 1995, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints published “The Family: A Proclamation to the World,” which declares the following truths about marriage: We, the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of His children. The family is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity.

The family is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity. Marriage is sacred and was ordained of God from before the foundation of the world. Jesus Christ affirmed the divine origins of marriage: “Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, and said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?” (Matthew 19:4–5.)

From the beginning, the sacred nature of marriage was closely linked to the power of procreation. After creating Adam and Eve, God commanded them to “be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and they brought forth children, forming the first family. Only a man and a woman together have the natural biological capacity to conceive children. This power of procreation—to create life and bring God’s spirit children into the world—is divinely given. Misuse of this power undermines the institution of the family. (Genesis 1:28.) [See M. Russell Ballard, “What Matters Most Is What Lasts Longest,” Ensign, Nov. 2005, 41–44.]

Elder Dallin H. Oaks has observed, “Tolerance does not require abandoning one’s standards or one’s opinions on political or public policy choices. Tolerance is a way of reacting to diversity, not a command to insulate it from examination. The Savior taught that we should love the sinner without condoning the sin. In the case of the woman taken in adultery, He treated her kindly but exhorted her to “sin no more.” His example manifested the highest love possible. In addition to using the argument of tolerance to advocate redefining marriage, proponents have advanced the argument of “equality before the law.” No mortal law, however, can override or nullify the moral standards established by God. Nor can the laws of men change the natural, innate differences between the genders or deny the close biological and social link between procreation and marriage. (Dallin H. Oaks, “Weightier Matters,” Ensign, Jan. 2001, 17. John 8:11.)

Remember that it is your belief that the Bible contains the word of God. That is not known to be a fact, so I fail to see why civil legislation which applies to believers and non believers alike should be bound by it. For the Church to recognize a marriage sure, but not for the state.

 

[Excalibur]

NOW the Supreme Court has to get involved and tell the Homophobic areas they cannot legally ban same sex marriage.

But that's just your own opinion. If the Supreme Court gets involved to lift the ban it's only by way of a social construct that they can do this. But there is nothing morally objective about such a proposed move.

Thus it is your favoured bans on same sex marriage that are illegal becuase they should have never been put in place in the first place.

But who says that it's 'illegal'? It may be 'immoral' but it's not 'illegal' as such. Otherwise, same sex marriage would be legal throughout America.

But I think you are simply trying to defraud people with incorrect information.

 

[Excalibur]

Except that marriage is a legal contract first and for most.

Wrong. Marriage is an Absolute right first and foremost; in accordance with the European Convention on Human Rights.

 

[metis]

Wrong. Marriage is an Absolute right first and foremost; in accordance with the European Convention on Human Rights.

You're conflating two different things, plus Europe isn't the only continent in this world. In regards to the first item, marriage is indeed a legal contract, but not all parties may recognize a specific contract. To the second item, there have been many different marriage structures historically and even today.

 

[Excalibur]

You're conflating two different things, plus Europe isn't the only continent in this world. In regards to the first item, marriage is indeed a legal contract, but not all parties may recognize a specific contract. To the second item, there have been many different marriage structures historically and even today.

Because marriage is a legal contract doesn't change the philosophical underpinnings of marriage in most European countries. Because it's a legal contract doesn't change the fact it is viewed as an Absolute right first and foremost. But the legal aspect is simply there to facilitate one's BELIEF in such a Right.

Such a Right is first and foremost; but the legal contract is simply to support such a Right.

The legal aspect is secondary, but such a Right is first and foremost.