"Trans" is clearly a hot topic. But what is it?

[Shadow Wolf]

Today we have women on the front line of the military, women are police officers, Pastors, and Doctors. We have men who are Nurses, Flight attendants, and secretaries; something unheard of just a few generations ago. You tellin’ me that is not a disruption of primary roles associated with gender?

How is it? Not like people doing them before still can't do them, and things like police is still mostly men and nurses are still mostly women.

 

[Kfox]

People typically don't ask if they know, especially for something so basic.

Don't assume because YOU don't do it, nobody does it. I have my reasons for doing what I do.

 

[Estro Felino]

Gender is more about the cultural roles a society associates with the respective sexes which is different from clothing. Fashion changes not only across different cultures but within the same culture without impacting the cultural roles the sexes have associated with them.

Cultural roles which are stereotypical.
Come on...
Cooks are nurses are males mostly...
and most district attorneys are females in my country.

 

[Kfox]

No, it's not a disruption. These fields are still predominately male (or female, respectively) and didn't alter societal expectations of either gender. When we see a complete reversal of gender roles in something, then we can talk about disruption.

Going by that standard, it could never happen because men and women make different choices when allowed to. Roles are expectations you are supposed to abide by regardless of whether you want to or not.

Obviously that's not the case as we're both referencing the expansion of women's options so women are nowhere near subordinate as they were in bygone eras.

That’s because those roles have become obsolete and are no longer in place

No, both are equally free to move into industries of their choice with little to none of the stigma that may have existed previously.

And why is that? Because those gender roles have become obsolete.

No. And that's something that can be attributed to capitalism.

Regardless of the reason, how can you say this is not a change in what is considered typical compared to years ago?

 

[Kfox]

How is it? Not like people doing them before still can't do them,

Before women were not allowed to be military infantry, doctors, or lawyers because those roles were for men. Today those roles have become obsolete

and things like police is still mostly men and nurses are still mostly women.

That’s because on average, more men prefer to be police, and more women prefer to be nurses. Gender roles have nothing to do with it, this is the result of choices men and women freely make.

 

[Estro Felino]

And why is that? Because those gender roles have become obsolete.

Exactly.
Gender is something that doesn't exist any more.
No woman wears skirts any more. They all wear jeans, as men do, to go to work.

And by the way, there are two men who can parent a child, so there is no such a thing as stereotypical parental roles any more.

 

[Kfox]

Exactly.
Gender is something that doesn't exist any more.

If that were true, this thread would have a different title because there would be no such a thing as trans-gender.

 

[Estro Felino]

If that were true, this thread would have a different title because there would be no such a thing as trans-gender.

Explain me, then.
What gender is.
What is the difference between male gender and female gender.

 

[Callisto]

Going by that standard, it could never happen because men and women make different choices when allowed to. Roles are expectations you are supposed to abide by regardless of whether you want to or not.

That’s because those roles have become obsolete and are no longer in place

And why is that? Because those gender roles have become obsolete.

Regardless of the reason, how can you say this is not a change in what is considered typical compared to years ago?

Last time I checked, there were no laws requiring people to maintain expectations.

If roles were obsolete, we wouldn't be having this discussion. And if your assertion was correct, it would automatically invalidate the matter of gender identity and dysphoria.

You know perfectly well didn't say there have been no changes, I said the changes don't equal disruption.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Welp, this thread took a turn. I'd say unexpectedly, but...not really...

 

[Kfox]

Explain me, then.
What gender is.
What is the difference between male gender and female gender.

My perception of gender is that it is a social construct that has been redefined to something making it completely meaningless. It used to be synonymous with biology, but now it seems to mean whatever someone wants it to mean. A biological male will have an idea in his head of what it means to be a female, and if he meets that criteria, he will claim his gender is female, and his imagined female gender trumps his male biological realities. That is why these people are unable to define the difference between male gender and female gender; because it varies from person to person due to taking biology completely out of the picture and replaced it with imagination/make-believe.

 

[Estro Felino]

My perception of gender is that it is a social construct that has been redefined to something making it completely meaningless. It used to be synonymous with biology, but now it seems to mean whatever someone wants it to mean. A biological male will have an idea in his head of what it means to be a female, and if he meets that criteria, he will claim his gender is female, and his imagined female gender trumps his male biology. That is why these people are unable to define the difference between male gender and female gender; because it varies from person to person due to taking biology completely out of the picture and replaced it with imagination/make-believe.

Exactly. It's absolutely subjective.

 

[Kfox]

Last time I checked, there were no laws requiring people to maintain expectations.

I never suggested there were laws in place, more like social pressure

If roles were obsolete, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Obsolete does not mean non-existent for everybody.

And if your assertion was correct, it would automatically invalidate the matter of gender identity and dysphoria.

Whether or not gender identity or dysphoria is a valid claim was not the point I was making

You know perfectly well didn't say there have been no changes, I said the changes don't equal disruption.

If change is not a disruption, what is it?

 

[Callisto]

I never suggested there were laws in place, more like social pressure

Obsolete does not mean non-existent for everybody.

They're not obsolete.

Whether or not gender identity or dysphoria is a valid claim was not the point I was making

If gender is a societal construct with associated roles, (allegedly now obsolete) then there would not be the feeling or need to change one's gender.

If change is not a disruption, what is it?

I already answered this. Change doesn't not inherently mean disruption. The end of slavery was a disruption, human displacement (migration, refugees) is disruption; natural disasters changing an area's livability, the pandemic, rapid technology, and the internet are disruptions. More women entering the job force wasn't a disruption, it didn't throw anything into disarray or upend society. In most instances, it saved the middle class, allowing households to maintain the status quo and compensate for the increasing gap between the cost of living and living wages.

 

[JDMS]

If gender is a societal construct with associated roles, (allegedly now obsolete) then there would not be the feeling or need to change one's gender.

I don't think you understand dysphoria, or trans people's desire to transition, in general.

I'm going to copy and paste something I said here once.

"To address some of these points, I'd like to share my perspective as a binary trans person. I can't say I understand nonbinary identities, but at least for binary identities, we usually do identify with the SEX characteristics of our target sex, rather than just the gender identity.

When I was a kid, barely acquainted with gender roles, I still knew I wanted a penis. I thought I was a boy and didn't underneath why I didn't have one. I didn't understand why I got in trouble when I went into the boy's bathroom. Etc.

Going through puberty, I had massive dysphoria about my female parts themselves, and massive dissatisfaction about not having a penis, not having facial hair, etc. In all of my dreams, my brain depicted me as a male. I even had phantom limb sensations where I would feel I had a penis even though I didn't, similarly to how a amputated person still has sensations of their missing limb.

I didn't just have dissatisfaction about not fitting into a social role of "man", I LITERALLY felt a disconnect between my brain and my physical sex ... not gender.

And I do not get gender roles, gender, and sex confused these days.

Now that I am fully transitioned and have the things I wish I was born with (besides my chromosomes, but I can't see those, and no one else can, either, so it doesn't really bother me), I feel perfectly comfortable with my partner dressing me up or putting nail polish on me. I don't quail when I enjoy stereotypically feminine hobbies. On Halloween last year, I even put on a woman's bunny costume along with all of my cisgender male friends when we went to a Halloween party, because it's just a fun time to twist gender roles, and I am a man. Whether or not I wear woman's clothing doesn't dictate that. If I felt like my clothing choices had anything to do with my gender, than I'd be confused.

To me, nothing about the hobbies I enjoy or clothes I'm willing to wear determine my identity. I don't identify with male stereotypes, I identify with the male body. Being a tomboy isn't what I needed, being as close to a biological MALE is what I needed. I didn't need to wear a masculine outfit, or drive a pickup truck... I needed a penis and balls.

That's a lot of private information, I know, but I hope this made sense about why trans people don't necessarily fall for gender roles as much as many of us identify with a biological sex.

For nonbinary people, though, it might be different."

Gender roles are not what makes trans people. Trans men are inherently different than tomboys.

 

[Callisto]

I don't think you understand dysphoria, or trans people's desire to transition, in general.

I've known trans persons for about 30 years and have had many indepth discussions, so I'm good. Thanks.

I'm going to copy and paste something I said here once.

"To address some of these points, I'd like to share my perspective as a binary trans person. I can't say I understand nonbinary identities, but at least for binary identities, we usually do identify with the SEX characteristics of our target sex, rather than just the gender identity.

I can't comment on your personal journey, obviously. I do know that gender dysphoria is experienced to varying degrees (perhaps intensity would be a better word) and is processed on an individual basis. Many (in my experience) accept the reality that their biological sex is other than how they feel and don't deny that it won't ever change. That acceptance has been (for them) essential when considering medical transitioning and the very real health risks associated with doing so. In general, a key deciding factor is weighing the risks and the extent to which a given treatment will help alleviate their symptoms. What (in my experience) matters is alleviating them to a sufficient extent that they feel comfortable in their own skin and, ideally, able to walk the world perceived as the desired gender. They don't deny their biology which is essential to maintaining their health and know they can't assume the primary sex characteristics of their desired gender. At best, one can present in a way that reflects society's perspective of gender which, for most correlates with their sex.

When I was a kid, barely acquainted with gender roles, I still knew I wanted a penis. I thought I was a boy and didn't underneath why I didn't have one. I didn't understand why I got in trouble when I went into the boy's bathroom. Etc.

Going through puberty, I had massive dysphoria about my female parts themselves, and massive dissatisfaction about not having a penis, not having facial hair, etc. In all of my dreams, my brain depicted me as a male. I even had phantom limb sensations where I would feel I had a penis even though I didn't, similarly to how a amputated person still has sensations of their missing limb.

I didn't just have dissatisfaction about not fitting into a social role of "man", I LITERALLY felt a disconnect between my brain and my physical sex ... not gender.

And part of treatment is finding a way to gain peace and acceptance with the fact that what a person feels is not ever going to mesh with the reality of their sex. What does work in most cases is to live as the desired gender and the more one can pass, the better. Whether to have top or bottom surgery (which will not elevate the problem and can cause a whole other set of problems) depends on the depths of the person's dysphoria and weighing that against their personal situation (e.g., overall health, finances). I know those who don't have nor will consider bottom surgery. They live as transmen and transwomen just fine, nonetheless. Do they wish they could? Of course, but there are reality-based reasons for not having that treatment.

And I do not get gender roles, gender, and sex confused these days.

Unfortunately, it doesn't help that there are those in the community who use the words interchangeably and then note distinctions, based on what suits their argument at the time.

Now that I am fully transitioned and have the things I wish I was born with (besides my chromosomes, but I can't see those, and no one else can, either, so it doesn't really bother me), I feel perfectly comfortable with my partner dressing me up or putting nail polish on me. I don't quail when I enjoy stereotypically feminine hobbies. On Halloween last year, I even put on a woman's bunny costume along with all of my cisgender male friends when we went to a Halloween party, because it's just a fun time to twist gender roles, and I am a man. Whether or not I wear woman's clothing doesn't dictate that. If I felt like my clothing choices had anything to do with my gender, than I'd be confused.

Your identity wasn't at issue because those around you accept you as you are. Anyone watching your group would assume men having some fun. That's identifying as a gender. As you noted, no one's lifting anyone's tail to determine who's a biological male. Several years ago, some friends instituted an annual "drag race" - a relay race for which anyone, regardless of sexual orientation or sex or gender, dresses in drag to compete. For our transmen, that's dressing as women. That's gender.

To me, nothing about the hobbies I enjoy or clothes I'm willing to wear determine my identity. I don't identify with male stereotypes, I identify with the male body. Being a tomboy isn't what I needed, being as close to a biological MALE is what I needed. I didn't need to wear a masculine outfit, or drive a pickup truck... I needed a penis and balls.

Again, I can't comment on your personal journey. All I can point out is that not all transpersons process things the same way nor feel equally intensely about the exact same aspects of dysphoria, or share the same outlook on their dysphoria. Lots of common symptoms, but there's no one way. What aspect you fixate on within your own dysphoria may differ for someone else; which combination of treatments to pursue is also personal. The end result is generally the same though, doing what the person feels they need to be comfortable in their own skin - whatever that means for the person.

That's a lot of private information, I know, but I hope this made sense about why trans people don't necessarily fall for gender roles as much as many of us identify with a biological sex.

Even people without gender dysphoria don't fall neatly into stereotypes. But when we're talking about functioning in society, yes we all are dealing with what society typically associates with genders (which, for most of the population, meshes with their sex).

For nonbinary people, though, it might be different."

Gender roles are not what makes trans people. Trans men are inherently different than tomboys.

True. I would say most tomboys don't have gender dysphoria and live their adult lives in synch with their sex.

 

[JDMS]

I've known trans persons for about 30 years and have had many indepth discussions, so I'm good. Thanks.

I can't comment on your personal journey, obviously. I do know that gender dysphoria is experienced to varying degrees (perhaps intensity would be a better word) and is processed on an individual basis. Many (in my experience) accept the reality that their biological sex is other than how they feel and don't deny that it won't ever change. That acceptance has been (for them) essential when considering medical transitioning and the very real health risks associated with doing so. In general, a key deciding factor is weighing the risks and the extent to which a given treatment will help alleviate their symptoms. What (in my experience) matters is alleviating them to a sufficient extent that they feel comfortable in their own skin and, ideally, able to walk the world perceived as the desired gender. They don't deny their biology which is essential to maintaining their health and know they can't assume the primary sex characteristics of their desired gender. At best, one can present in a way that reflects society's perspective of gender which, for most correlates with their sex.

I'm not entirely sure why you are acting as if I need to be educated. I'm not sure why you seem to think I was making a statement for all trans people, either.

YOU: All I can point out is that not all transpersons process things the same way nor feel equally intensely about the exact same aspects of dysphoria

You say that, when in my original comment I stated (multiple times)...

ME: I'd like to share my perspective as a binary trans person. I can't say I understand nonbinary identities, but at least for binary identities, we usually do identify with the sex characteristics of our target sex...

ME: I hope this made sense about why trans people don't necessarily fall for gender roles as much as many of us identify with a biological sex.

In what world is that me apparently generalizing to the point that you feel it's necessary to explain all that? In what world does that imply that I need you to educate me on the opinions of a community I live and breath in to me? You don't know me, or my experience as a trans person or my activity in trans spaces. I have accrued over 13k messages on a singular transgender community in the last decade. So please, don't act as if I don't know my own people.

For further context, that original comment that I copied and pasted was directed at Kfox the first time around. Kfox is clearly less educated, and so obviously I'm not going to layer nuance onto my message to someone who doesn't even understand the basics yet.

And I realize you didn't know that, but you still jumped to conclusions about my knowledge or experience anyways. Please don't do that. Especially to someone you KNOW is transgender when you are not. Next time, I encourage you to ask questions before you waste your breathe explaining something to me that I could recite in my sleep.


Largely though, I agree with what you are saying. Yes, everyone has different transition goals. Yes, not everyone is capable of differentiating sex and gender and gender roles.

All I was saying is that if gender roles were entirely abolished or never existed, that trans people would still exist. Honestly, at this point, I'm not even sure of you agree with that statement or disagree with it. I've become confused about your position because a lot of your posting can be a bit ambiguous.

I may have misunderstood the original comment I replied to.

Edit: I should also add, before you point it out, that me saying this

I don't think you understand dysphoria, or trans people's desire to transition, in general.

is perhaps presumptuous. So yes, maybe I should not have said that, and yes, maybe your "education" came from the same place mine did.

 

[Kfox]

I already answered this. Change doesn't not inherently mean disruption. The end of slavery was a disruption, human displacement (migration, refugees) is disruption; natural disasters changing an area's livability, the pandemic, rapid technology, and the internet are disruptions. More women entering the job force wasn't a disruption, it didn't throw anything into disarray or upend society. In most instances, it saved the middle class, allowing households to maintain the status quo and compensate for the increasing gap between the cost of living and living wages.

Disruption can, but does not require throwing things into disarray. Perhaps we're having different ideas of what it means to disrupt.

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

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www.dictionary.com

Your idea of disruption seems to be more like #2, with mine being more like #3 using the above definition

 

[Callisto]

I'm not entirely sure why you are acting as if I need to be educated. I'm not sure why you seem to think I was making a statement for all trans people, either.

You say that, when in my original comment I stated (multiple times)...


In what world is that me apparently generalizing to the point that you feel it's necessary to explain all that? In what world does that imply that I need you to educate me on the opinions of a community I live and breath in to me? You don't know me, or my experience as a trans person or my activity in trans spaces. I have accrued over 13k messages on a singular transgender community in the last decade. So please, don't act as if I don't know my own people.

Perhaps it would be less discomforting not to project your assumptions? Not be snarky, but this does seem to be the issue here.

It's your assumption that I tried to educate you. Just like you assumed to tell me I don't know what dysphoria is and involves and then proceeded to educate me give your view of what it is. And please note as this seems to have been overlooked: I stated twice that I can't and don't presume to speak on your personal experience.

So I can only suggest don't tell someone that they don't know something and then balk when they demonstrate they're quite familiar with the subject.

For further context, that original comment that I copied and pasted was directed at Kfox the first time around. Kfox is clearly less educated, and so obviously I'm not going to layer nuance onto my message to someone who doesn't even understand the basics yet.

And I realize you didn't know that, but you still jumped to conclusions about my knowledge or experience anyways. Please don't do that. Especially to someone you KNOW is transgender when you are not. Next time, I encourage you to ask questions before you waste your breathe explaining something to me that I could recite in my sleep.

I simply responded to what was being directed at me. As you admit, \there was no indication that you were addressing someone else or that a portion was from a different exchange. You choosing to internalize my comments as schooling is your own doing. Again, you presume to tell me what I do or don't know and I replied to indicate otherwise. If you took that as schooling, that's not my doing.

Largely though, I agree with what you are saying. Yes, everyone has different transition goals. Yes, not everyone is capable of differentiating sex and gender and gender roles.

All I was saying is that if gender roles were entirely abolished or never existed, that trans people would still exist. Honestly, at this point, I'm not even sure of you agree with that statement or disagree with it. I've become confused about your position because a lot of your posting can be a bit ambiguous.

I doubt we will ever abolish gender roles as they're not without connection to the biological differences between the sexes. I think much of the changes we have seen in gender roles stem from society moving away from outmoded ideology like religious views that seep into the wider, civil matters.

I can't speak to whatever it is you find ambiguous.

I may have misunderstood the original comment I replied to.

Edit: I should also add, before you point it out, that me saying this

is perhaps presumptuous. So yes, maybe I should not have said that, and yes, maybe your "education" came from the same place mine did.

I'll just point to what I wrote above.

I agree we're likely coming from the same place, just don't have identical opinions.

 

[Callisto]

Disruption can, but does not require throwing things into disarray. Perhaps we're having different ideas of what it means to disrupt.

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!

www.dictionary.com

Your idea of disruption seems to be more like #2, with mine being more like #3 using the above definition

My view includes 2 & 3. I don't see women in the workforce being the disruptive force (#3) that you're suggesting. Abolishing slavery is both 2 & 3 as it forced a significant shift from the previous driving force of the US economy and made radical changes in civil law was applied and radical shifts in local populations.